Funny how most of the people bashing each other are either LFR heroes, going to be flex heroes, have never downed any heroic bosses (or have 1-2 kills in hm). Seriously the amount of stupid in this thread is overwhelming. Who cares when blizz releases content, you'll still get to experience it when its all released, stop whining, and bitching over dumbshit.
1% cleared naxx in pre bc
Sunwell a minority cleared it in BC
A minority of guilds are hardcore raiding guilds.
If you think that hardcore raiders make up most of the player base you are really delusional. Once of the devs said "World of Warcraft would be 'in bad shape' without embracing the casual revolution" http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/23/465...ing-the-casual He works for blizzard.
The insults lfr hero is bullshit, Are you really that buthurt someone gets to do a easier version of the raid than you and get lesser gear? Please tell me how in the fuck does that have any effect on your game play.
The game Evolved from what it was 6 years ago, In fact the peak of the games subs was in WOTLK when it was super fucking easy. Cataclysm Blizzard tried to make it harder and well We seen a mass Exodus.
If all the Casual players left yes the game would go f2p
And those "raiders" are just as bad as the people in lfr who afk, troll, or flat out can't understand or refuse to learn how to actually play their class and do more than 30k dps. When I run lfr to get some valor, I'm silent almost every time, for the entire instance. If we wipe or have a bad strat happening, I whisper the tank (if its a tanking issue) or just say in /i what should be happening to get the boss down. Are there total asshats that queue for lfr just to talk down to others and start arguments? Of course there are, but that has nothing to do with whether or not that person has heroic gear, that has to do with whether or not that person is just an asshole.
That is the problem at the end of every expansion for every type of player, certainly was the case for DS. I think with the heirloom weapons from Garrosh, they are putting some type of carrot for everyone. but it still isn´t much. The last patch of an expansion always has a ton of players saying ´why bother´.. when they see the green drops from the next expansion.
What did LFR people do after they killed deathwing in Cata? nothing. I would argue that the fact that Flex mode has wings will be a significant improvement for them. If you are fully geared in TI and LFR gear, doing a wing of Flex mode will be just as fast as doing a wing of LFR . Of course, it all seems meaningless if you are looking at green gear from the next exp. But that is true of almost everyone but the top 1%. There never is much reason to grind gear at the end of an expansion for anyone.
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Nothing. Once you have killed Garrosh on any level, if you are looking at it from a purely gear perspective, there is no reason to do anything else because the greens in the next exp will wipe away anything you have now. Kill Garrosh and unsubscribe.
But that is simply not the mentality most of us have. Most of us enjoy the weekly, incremental gains that comes with minor gear upgrades. I like the fact that I can solo Naxx 25, but maybe in another month, i can kill LK10. I like the fact that I can kill the triceretops solo, but maybe next month I can solo the Rexes.
Gear is always being made obsolete quickly in this game, grinding for gear is always pointless if you look at it closely. But then so is playing a video game in general!
Oct 22. The day I renew mysub then cancel it again lol.
Gearing up and then ultimately starting over again in the next expansion has been what raiding entails since 2004, what are you trying to say here, Garrosh should drop weapons that are bis for the rest of WoW? I speak on my behalf and the behalf of the guildmates I raid with that the end of an expansion is not "oh look greens are replacing our awesome raid epics, why did we even bother?" It's "Sweet, new expansion, new world, new quests, new dungeons, new raids, new everything. Lets have an awesome time together once again!" I feel like there's a disconnect between people who actually raid and those who don't, but do lfr or wish that they did raid n/h. My guildmates and myself do not raid to get gear, to get ilvls. We raid to have an awesome time together, using teamwork to accomplish a goal together. Gear is a means to that end, not the end itself. Player A sees a boss die, and runs over to loot it and see if he gets to have higher ilvl. I dont raid with people like this. Player B sees the boss die, and nerdscreams go out in vent/mumble because we finally killed the bastard. Those purples he dropped will help us on the next boss in our way, not make us super leet pros who like to show off our gear.
The problem has reached an acute stage this time.
First, LFR allows anyone to "see the content" quickly. If you want to, you'll be able to kill the end boss of the expansion on Oct 22, six weeks after the tier is released.
Now, DS was like this, but in DS there was still an expectation that people would advance on to higher raid modes. But with MoP, we've had an entire expansion of people being ok with just doing LFR. Do they have any motivation to get back into the guild raiding scene? I sure don't. Heirlooms from Garrosh have zero motivating effect for me.
Blizzard is just about betting the farm that lots of these people will want to advance to Flex. If they don't, the whole tail end of this expansion will collapse like a house of cards.
And something else...
I enter every expansion with a finite supply of give-a-damn. MoP, for some reason, has been burning it unusually rapidly. I have very little care left for what happens in the expansion. The ersatz reward scheme of pretty purple pixels with incrementally larger numbers has lost its allure. The idea of reaching my own personally defined endpoint and saying "done!" is looking more and more attractive.
Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-09-04 at 09:37 PM.
"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
"Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"
it isn´t about the amount of time, it is about SCHEDULING. I already said I play more than than 9 hours a week. It isn´t about being good, or being part of a ´team´ ( lol).. It is about scheduling your real life around a rigid schedule in a video game. For most of us.. it is just absolutely incredible that people schedule real life around a video game. that people tell friends ´sorry 8pm to 11pm is offlimits on tues wed an thurs.
"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
"Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"
If by casual players, you mean people like me, and not your usual lfr crowd of afkers, trolls, and antagonizers, then yes, WoW would be in a bad spot. Casual =/= lfr only players. I'm a casual, and I finished ToT in March on a 2 nights a week, 3 hours a night raid schedule.
There is no reason for anyone to do more than 2 levels at the same time. If you are a normal raider, then you do 3 bosses of flex, and then normal. If you are a flex raider, you do Flex and then LFR when it is released.
Everyone should have their ´level´.. and then kill a few bosses from another level, either one up, or one down...
Well lfr was never made to be like normals in the first place. The intent behind lfr was and always has been to show those who didn't get to raid in classic > 4.3 what raiding is like, a little taste, so that they could see what happens in the game's story, and perhaps entice them to try normal raiding. While I have no doubt that it succeeded this goal in some small way, it failed much harder than it succeeded. People who only do lfr was not Blizzard's intent, for the very reason you point out, its a clusterfuck of trolls, idiots and assholes all thrown together to accomplish something. When in the history of ever has that ever been successful?
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I want you to visualize 25 random people queuing into normal Lady DW. Not a watered down lfr version with non-important mechanics, the actual fight. Now I want you to tell me without lying to yourself that you believe 25 people who can randomly queue up would have been able to kill DW. If you think that, you're either lying/trolling, or extremely dense. Wotlk MAY have been easier, but that doesn't mean that the people who actually DID raids back then were as daft as the random people who queue up for lfr nowadays. If you had no experience in wotlk and wanted to join an icc pug, you better be able to prove you weren't stupid/bad at your class. Hell, you could be turned down by gearscore alone, regardless of your defenses that you were a capable player.
Last edited by Ebonwraith; 2013-09-04 at 09:54 PM.
25 man Lady DW was a joke considering: You got teir from running heroics and the ICC buff. Hell you could get full raid gear from running heroics now days you have to do LFR for it. In WOTLK all people cared about was your GS and achievement, You could down load a mod to fake the achievement. Hell I played on Mal'ganis than people with High gear scores and the achievement still fucking failed.
But like I said before a Causal player could run heroics for Frost badges to get Full t10. These days you have to do lfr and face the RNG god, Oh and heroics are totally fucking useless now days.
Last edited by But I Hate You All; 2013-09-04 at 10:00 PM.
And then Blizzard goes on to say that they get rises in sub numbers when patch's release. I can barely see what for, perhaps some heroic raiders returning to try and world/server first? It's not worth it for any casual to return for week 1 or 2 at all unless they plan to min max and get into the normal/heroic game late.
What I find most boggling is that huge ilvl disparity between raid finder and flex SoO loot between heroic and heroic thunderforged ToT loot, and normal SoO loot. It's like they tried to make it seem not very worth it to run, though as some self entitled people have exclaimed, they would run flex AND normal mode on their mains and alts week 1 to get the op trinkets and 4sets for heroic progression week 2.
On the other hand, the people that the content is aimed for (normal raiders who actually kill normal at a progressed pace and heroic raiders who do the same) will have about the same length of time (4-6 lockouts) to progress to and kill garrosh. Is this a valid excuse to gate the majority of the raiding community because certain people need to feel good about their first of many garrosh kills (other than killing him on 1-3 difficulty levels higher than a flex or a raid finder raider)? No. It's not It's a slap to the face to those raiders. Hell, most of the time, I'm on the side with defending the hardcores or the normal raiders, but this is bull.
There are no worse scum in this world than fascists, rebels and political hypocrites.
Donald Trump is only like Hitler because of the fact he's losing this war on all fronts.
Apparently condemning a fascist ideology is the same as being fascist. And who the fuck are you to say I can't be fascist against fascist ideologies?
If merit was the only dividing factor in the human race, then everyone on Earth would be pretty damn equal.
While this is all true. It is far far far to late for them to go back now. I used to be a hardcore raider. Now days I am one of the people who only does lfr. I renew my sub, clear it and then cancel it again. But like i said its to late to go back. They change being able to do that now and my sub will never be renewed.
Blizzard fucked up but there is nothing they can do about it now. They will just have to deal with subs jumping up and down depending on now fast they put out content. Or lose the million people who play like i do.
Aye mate
To be fair, it's not really any different than playing a sport. I used to play Hockey 3-4 times a week(2x training 2x games) and I would absolutely schedule my other real life stuff around that, now that I'm a bit older I use that time for WoW. It's not a huge commitment, but if you can play 10-12 hours a week you can definitely raid normal+, you just need to want to... Clearly you don't. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't try and make up excuses for it.
That is just stupid. There is no argument to be made for it replacing LFR other than heroic raiders feeling that both are ´beneath them´.
1. LFR has no griefable mechanisms - There is no way a single player in LFR can wipe the group unless it is very very over the top. because it is anonymous, this is important. A lot of mehcanisms that a griefer could use are either toned down to nothing, or completely removed in LFR In Flex, every mechanism is intact. Because the group is built by players, there is a social awareness that prevents griefing. This is the reason the Flex feels much more like normal mode than LFR does. Some of the reason mechanisms are removed from LFR are to make it easier, but a bigger part of the reason is just anonymous griefing.
2. Scheduling - Another big draw for LFR is that you can do a wing in 45 minutes, whenever you happen to log in. There is no scheduling involved. A lot of people, like myself, simply do not want to have to deal with scheduling a game. With LFR, I log in, I que, I raid, I am out.. Nobody is going to get angry if I am not online Wednesday at 8pm and I am the main tank.
3. Complexity - LFR is built with strangers in mind, and without a real leader being needed. Even forming groups for lie shen is about as far as the devs can push the envelope with a complete group of strangers. With Flex mode, someone is forming the group and will be leader.. specfic assignments can be easily given. In LFR, there is nothing that can cause one player to tell another player what to do... I mean, think about it.. the longest delays in LFR are waiting for an egg team to be formed.. With a Flex group, the leader can control everything including cooldowns and groups. And because the group is formed socially, there is some force behind that leadership. In LFR... it would be almost impossible for someone to force someone else to be on the egg team.. the person doing the forcing would probably be more likely to be kicked than the one who was hesitent to do it.
In the end.. it is all about the social factor. Having a group that is put together by people has a social awareness that allows for an increased difficulty that can´t be found in LFR. And conversely, automatic queues in LFR is a huge perk for people who don´t want to schedule around a game.
Both give very real benefits to the game for different types of players
Now quickly.. show me the differences between Flex Mode and normal mode that prevent them from being merged. LFR and Flex have very different audiences based on how they play the game. There is much closer overlap between Flex and normal.
I'm sorry, what? For starters, the icc player buff was not there from the beginning, just like the 20% nerf to ToT isn't active until 5.4. Also, tier from heroics? lolwhat? But that's beside the point. My point is when you consider that people who did any form of raiding in Wotlk actually had to deal with the REAL mechanics of a boss, and not an "lfr" version where they don't even matter, you'll understand that even those who raided 10m normals in wotlk were infinitely better than today's run of the mill lfr only player. Do you know how many people in lfr don't know that Durumu's force of will actually kills you in normal throne? TONS. Just like the people who get tracking on them and sit and attack the boss until beam phase. Guess what, that kills you to attrition in normal, and Durumu fucking nukes the entire raid on heroic if you don't finish spectrum phase in 80 seconds.
Bottom line, you can't compare any raiding from the past with lfr and be taken seriously by people who raided back then and know what it was like, and know what lfr is like.