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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post

    Overall, I'd say the potential for unintended death recovery is much greater than the need to use the proc to deal with a mechanic in SoO.
    I guess my biggest gripe with it is the fact that as we push through content and get more stuff on farm it basically becomes useless. Its not like the legendary meta where the damage reduction is still there. Fact of the matter is on farm fights in tot I haven't been close to dying in a long time. In fact the other night on H twins I had to pee really bad so I waited until the other tank got his beast, taunted and ran to the bath room to pee, came back and all was well.

    But I guess that's where the dps legendarys come in, I understand the need for the nerfs going into 5.4 but I think it'd be nice to give the damage back come 5.5 when there's a lot of farming going on and the extra survivability isn't needed. (So maybe instead of a 40% loss they could buff it to be a net 20% loss or so.)

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by felcommander View Post
    I guess my biggest gripe with it is the fact that as we push through content and get more stuff on farm it basically becomes useless.
    While it may be hard to believe, if you're doing at least a good portion of encounters on heroic difficulty in ToT, you fall into the minority of the raiding population most likely. It's like the blue post mention when referring to the gating of the SoO raid... while some of use are going to clear SoO on normal the first week it comes out, the vast majority of people will not defeat the last boss on any difficulty for many weeks. Since the legendary tanking cloak will be obtainable the day 5.4 goes live, it will have the potential for much use by the majority of the tanking population.

    Even with the minority population that be plowing through heroics on the second week, we'll be technically under-geared for clearing all of SoO on heroic. That's when we start having to make choices that have to account for the lack of gear. One option I've been toying around with is dropping a "tank healer" for a DPS in our raids for harder DPS checks, allowing the tanking cloak to permit some cushion for reduced tank healing and the potential of split attention between tanks and raid survival. Overall, adding an actual DPS over a healer versus keeping a healer and the tank adding some DPS-oriented gear should yield a higher DPS gain by a mile, and if the legendary cloak makes this change easier, I'm all for it. The need for the tanking cloak to clear content will become less and less as we get more geared, but the need for the DPS-oriented items to clear content becomes less as well
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  3. #23
    Let me reassure you - your tank cloak will absolutely be needed.

    Today on the PTR, we did a ToT race clear against Method. This is with a normalized 548 ilvl, in an instance we've been farming for 4 months, WITH a 20% damage/hp nerf on top of being 20+ ilvls higher than we were during progression.

    I died three times in 80 minutes, vs 4.7% of my total damage (which itself was 4.2% of raid damage) from Flurry of Xuen ~= 0.2% of raid damage.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Let me reassure you - your tank cloak will absolutely be needed.

    Today on the PTR, we did a ToT race clear against Method. This is with a normalized 548 ilvl, in an instance we've been farming for 4 months, WITH a 20% damage/hp nerf on top of being 20+ ilvls higher than we were during progression.

    I died three times in 80 minutes, vs 4.7% of my total damage (which itself was 4.2% of raid damage) from Flurry of Xuen ~= 0.2% of raid damage.
    Yea, lots of people underestimate the value of survival in this game, it's kinda amazing when a proc that prevents you from dieing is called useless over a meager dps increase. Not wiping/Not dieing is probably a bigger dps increase TBH.

  5. #25
    Yeah, the DPS cloak's contribution to overall damage is incredibly tiny especially in 25m.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    Yeah, the DPS cloak's contribution to overall damage is incredibly tiny especially in 25m.
    Really only matters for soloing but unless I plan on doing T14 stuff in SoO gear I'll stick with the DPS cloak. Not saying there aren't uses for the tank cloak in pre-MoP content but they're pretty few and far between as well as pretty trivialized with T16 2-set.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    Yeah, the DPS cloak's contribution to overall damage is incredibly tiny especially in 25m.
    Our bear druid does ~400k dps on almost every fight and his cloak is about 10% of his damage. 40k dps over the course of a fight can definitely make the difference between a kill and a wipe.

  8. #28
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    Our bear druid does ~400k dps on almost every fight and his cloak is about 10% of his damage. 40k dps over the course of a fight can definitely make the difference between a kill and a wipe.
    First, I have to say that 400k is quite a fuck-ton of from my experience, unless hes geared to the teeth and you guys are progressing on the hardest hitting of the heroics. (Or using solo-tanking strats on every fight possible).

    I do have to say the dps cloak, especially on any fight where you can get it to hit multiple targets, is quite the decent cloak. The proc is also helpful in things like trash, and picking up incoming mobs should it proc, as it guarantees threat.

    While I am only doing normals so far, I actually havent had a single instance in which the tanking legendary cloak would have helped me at all. Guardians are approaching the point where we can spam FR quite often and use SD and T&C whenever its up. We also have an enourmous health pool, in addition to barkskin having such a short CD (23 seconds with heroic Malk trinket i think?). Both of these combined means that there are very few situations where the legendary cloak will actually proc- not only do we have an enourmous amount of health to soak most attacks, but we also have the BEST means to heal ourselves after taking a hit.

    So, imo, youll get more usefulness to the raid with the dps cloak. The only time a bear tank will die in a non-wipe situation is if either A) The raid group is using a non-recommended strat for whatever reason (Mostly involving solo tanking on various bosses that do hard hitting moves when they should be using 2 tanks), or B) the bear hasnt recieved any direct healing for more then 15 seconds, which is a problem with the healers and not the tank. In all other circumstances, bears are the best tank now at reducing spike damage.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    First, I have to say that 400k is quite a fuck-ton of from my experience, unless hes geared to the teeth and you guys are progressing on the hardest hitting of the heroics. (Or using solo-tanking strats on every fight possible).
    This is more of the point concerning the use of the cloaks, where execution of an encounter will mean a LOT more than arbitrarily using the cloak of your choice.

    If a Guardian is doing 400k DPS on most fights, they would have to solo-tank... but even then, the Vengeance isn't high enough on some encounters to support that amount of DPS (or it's just not justified to solo-tank, unless your raid DPS is reeeeeeeally low). Is it possible to break 400k on encounters in SoO as a Guardian? Certainly, even if you two-tank fights using certain strategies. However, usually one tank reaps the DPS benefits to reach that high of a number while the other one starts competing with healer DPS, or there's some gimmick to the encounter.

    Which leads me to the actual DPS contribution of the cloak, which is still pretty low in the grand scheme of things, especially in 25mans. The DPS variance from altering how you execute a fight will likely trump the DPS variance from switching from the tank cloak to the DPS cloak using the same execution. Usually the DPS gains from a change in fight execution, ironically enough, push towards the tanking cloak being a better option because you're likely doing something dangerous and taking much more damage than intended. Even beyond just the tanks, the raid's execution of an encounter mean a lot more than the DPS cloak... and unless you're just barely wiping to enrage by a couple seconds, there's no need for the DPS cloak. To be fair, we had that situation during our progression, and I did switch to the DPS cloak (and from HotW to NV) because we were wiping by a few seconds consistently.

    One thing I should note about the tanking cloak is that it does not always proc when it should, or there's some hidden conditions concerning the proc. I'm not overly concerned since it only seems to happen when I'm trying to kill myself for a wipe recovery effort, but mechanics that were meant to avoid don't seem to proc my cloak... with some exceptions, which may have been bugs. I've had Nazgrim's Execute bypass the tanking cloak, as well as Malkorok's purple smashes, all of which may be intended to prevent the cloak's use from cheesing situations. Regardless, it has saved me before, and I've seen wipes that were likely kills occur when some of our other tanks didn't use the tanking cloak. I will also say the tanking cloak is excellent if your other tank dies and cannot be rezzed, requiring you to tank much longer than you planned upon... Malkorok 35-stack of the debuff says hello!
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  10. #30
    Field Marshal Neji's Avatar
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    I use my tanking meta and cloak when I tank and my DPS cloak and meta when I DPS. I've yet to run into a situation where using the DPS cloak for tanking made sense for me.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Neji View Post
    I use my tanking meta and cloak when I tank and my DPS cloak and meta when I DPS. I've yet to run into a situation where using the DPS cloak for tanking made sense for me.
    It took until the 7th boss on heroic this tier for any heroics to have a legitimate shot at killing the tank (would have been 8th boss, but we 1-heal shamans, so the Haromm tanks have to care). In those cases, you might as well use the DPS cloak, heck our first Protectors/Sha kills would have been wipes if the tanks weren't wearing DPS cloaks, and Norushen would have probably been close.
    Last edited by Braindwen; 2013-10-14 at 05:44 AM.

  12. #32
    Field Marshal Neji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braindwen View Post
    It took until the 7th boss on heroic this tier for any heroics to have a legitimate shot at killing the tank (would have been 8th boss, but we 1-heal shamans, so the Haromm tanks have to care). In those cases, you might as well use the DPS cloak, heck our first Protectors/Sha kills would have been wipes if the tanks weren't wearing DPS cloaks, and Norushen would have probably been close.
    I can understand early heroic attempts especially if you're not gearing up along the way and launched right into heroic attempts but for us normal mode schlubs who reset each week I've found that providing that extra safeguard for my healers is nice and the DPS from my cloak simply isn't doing all that much in our 25 man raid. We're not bumping into nasty enrage timers like folks in heroics might and we often run light on healers or use undergeared healers so I like that cushion myself.

    To each their own I suppose. I'm sure if the fight called for it I could easily be persuaded to use the DPS cloak while tanking but right now, outside of some very select fights where I'd want to attempt to parse I just don't see the need.
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    “All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.”

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