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  1. #1

    5.4 Holy Gemming

    So I'm making the switch from Disc to Holy in 5.4. Wondering what gemming should look like for 25 mans.

    Right now I'm thinking of going intellect for red, intellect/mastery for yellow, and intellect/spirit for blue.

    I'll be hitting the haste breakpoint for the extra Lightwell tick, then going mastery after that. The breakpoint will be even better once I get the T16 4 piece.

    I was hitting around 18k spirit gemming for spirit at about a 522 item level, so I figure with a 547 item level I can hit 18k without the gems. My overhealing back then wasn't too bad, generally around 20-25%, and I didn't have too much mana problems apart from certain fights, but this was mostly on normal modes.

    Any advice in regards to mana from people testing SoO on the PTR would be appreciated.

    Sort of a follow up question in regards to mana as well; would using FDCL be worth it before the 2 piece, or should I stick to MB until then?
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  2. #2
    Field Marshal Brightmist's Avatar
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    Stick with FDCL whether you have 2pc or not since it actually does return more mana. 18k spirit is way too much if you have the legendary metagem, tone it down to 15-16k. Using FDCL with the new buffs to serendipity on PTR does actually help a lot manawise but still, gotta stick to regen trinkets. Do not get T16 4pc, it's not worth it. Instead just go with t15 2 pc + t16 2pc (t16 2pc is a must). Gems are int, int/spirit, mastery, mastery/spirit, int/mastery, spirit depending on your gear setup. Going all out mastery isn't actually good, you gotta create a balance between intellect and mastery depending on your tastes or fight mechanics.

  3. #3
    As Holy Int-gems? Sorry, but since MoP and the higher item values on secondary stats i would not gem int as holy; haste is far more valueable as int; at least for gemming. (exception is a good set bonus, but even then you should never use pure red gems)
    Last edited by Velerios; 2013-09-05 at 01:20 AM.

  4. #4
    Field Marshal WinniPriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    As Holy Int-gems? Sorry, but since MoP and the higher item values on secondary stats i would not gem int as holy; haste is far more valueable as int; at least for gemming. (exception is a good set bonus, but even then you should never use pure red gems)
    I prefer mastery to haste.
    I gem zen and purified mostly.

  5. #5
    Going to stick with my current gemming, which is:
    Purified in Red/Blue sockets
    Zen in Yellow sockets
    Sparkling in extra (BS/EotBP/Belt) sockets

    Running 18k spirit with H HLG+Valor trinket.

    Will likely drop spirit (to ~16k) once I'm more comfortable with the fights and using FDCL to its maximum.

    That being said this is what works for me; Brightmist's suggestions may work equally as well depending on your playstyle.

  6. #6
    I checked out some armories, and gemming seems to be all over the place. Granted you can't get specifics as to why they are gearing the way they are, but I figure most are getting ready for 5.4 progression at this point, so there's a chance their gems reflect that.

    Intellect interacts with every single spell, and has the lowest potential for overheal. I think I'm just going to go with my original plan of intellect for red, intellect/mastery for yellow, and intellect/spirit for blue. I'll adjust for spirit as needed, but I'll be sticking with intellect > mastery.

    Another question. Does intellect double-dip with EoL? Meaning the initial heal is bigger, but then EoL is based on mastery as well as intellect. Or is it strictly the % of the initial heal? The tooltip seems to indicate the latter, but I want to make sure.

    Stick with FDCL whether you have 2pc or not since it actually does return more mana.
    According to Havoc (who seems to be pretty decent at math), strictly speaking about mana return, MB comes ahead, though the difference is quite small. He contradicted himself about the HPS gain though, which is what I really want to know. If there is even a slight gain in HPS before 2 piece, it will probably be worth using, especially since the mana difference is so small.

    Saying FDCL can be an HPS gain without 2 piece - http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...3#post22104993
    Saying FDCL is an HPS loss without 2 piece - http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...3#post22099253
    Last edited by Amerrol; 2013-09-06 at 07:06 PM.
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  7. #7
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    I go to around 5k Haste and then dump the rest into Mastery. I'm gemming for Int and Mastery, or Spirit and Mastery at this point.

    I'm going to at least try FDCL without the 2pc and see where it gets me.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Music View Post
    Going to stick with my current gemming, which is:
    Purified in Red/Blue sockets
    Zen in Yellow sockets
    Sparkling in extra (BS/EotBP/Belt) sockets

    Running 18k spirit with H HLG+Valor trinket.
    Extreme, huge, enormous, buttloads of spirit. You do not need this. You can comfortably drop to 14k and notice no difference. Even 10k is okay if you manage your mana well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amerrol View Post
    Saying FDCL can be an HPS gain without 2 piece - http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...3#post22104993
    Saying FDCL is an HPS loss without 2 piece - http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...3#post22099253
    While FDCL may be an HPS loss, I'd still say it can be situationally better. Even if it's the same regen with more GCDs, you're gaining an instant Flash Heal, which is always better than one with a casting time.
    Last edited by Thirteen; 2013-09-06 at 09:32 PM.

  9. #9
    While FDCL may be an HPS loss, I'd still say it can be situationally better. Even if it's the same regen with more GCDs, you're gaining an instant Flash Heal, which is always better than one with a casting time.
    True. Probably won't wanna use the procs during heavy AoE like we will with 2 piece to buff PoH. but its usefulness for spot healing can't be denied. May as well start getting used to the play style in preperation for the 2 piece, especially on certain fights where we can spare the GCDs or with a lot of erratic damage.

    Extreme, huge, enormous, buttloads of spirit. You do not need this. You can comfortably drop to 14k and notice no difference. Even 10k is okay if you manage your mana well.
    I don't see how you can do 10k Spirit, unless you are throttling yourself like crazy to the detriment of your fellow healers. Even 14k seems low for the amount of AoE damage most fights seem to have.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
    Extreme, huge, enormous, buttloads of spirit. You do not need this. You can comfortably drop to 14k and notice no difference. Even 10k is okay if you manage your mana well.
    Perhaps if you're raiding LFR. Heroic progression requires "buttloads" of spirit as Holy, especially with the amount of raw healing required in SoO.

  11. #11
    High Overlord Zolvolt's Avatar
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    Last i saw this was correct information:

    FDCL without the new tier set is an HPS LOSS for holy. If you don't have the 2-set then the new mindbender is still better for holy, because its the same mana regen and less GCDs lost.

    FDCL becomes the top talent however the instant you get the new 2-set. Why are you even testing in the PTR without the new tier sets anyway?

    Once you have the tier set, I don't care if the boss is throwing the kitchen sink on your raid you better use up those FDCLs, because everytime you cast one or two of them you get a massive PoH incoming, which is a major HPS gain. The harder the incoming damage the more you need to use those FDCLs.

    @darkener and nobodysbaby: You are clearly using FDCL wrong.

    a) You only need to use 1 FDCL every 13s or so. Wasting additional FDCLs will not really set you back compared to mindbender. You can afford to waste a couple of procs instead of losing HPS at key moments.

    b) FDCL requires more attention. You can't just spend the proc when you get it, even with the 2set. You have to plan around legendary meta procs and the groups you are going to PoH.

    Here is the correct way to use FDCL during high HPS phases:

    No tier set: Use the proc on the lowest healthbar you can see when the following conditions are satisfied a) PoM is on CD and no DI b) CoH has been used or will overheal c) PoH will overheal. Although you might think that pre-casting when the heathbars are full is a good idea, it is even better to have a fast PoH to use reactively instead and FH the low health targets with little overheal. d) Legendary meta has not procd. If these conditions are not satisfied don't use FDCL even if you have 2 stacks

    +2p set: You want ideally to use two FDCL procs, but with the 2 sets you don't want to waste procs if possible. Thus if you get a 2nd stack unload them both on he lowest health targets you can see (unless the legedary meta has procd). If you get one proc then the criteria (a)-(d) apply. Criterion (d) takes precedence though. Use glyphed binding heal or at least a spell costing mana during legendary meta procs even if you have FDCL stacked to 2.

    With the 2set though there is a caveat. If the raid damage is extremely hard and you are in a fight to save your raid, then FDCL procs come second in priority only to PoM/DI procs, so use them right away to raise your HPS. FDCL procs are actually extremely good during high damage phases, because it adds an extra spell to heal people who took too much damage in addition to PoM and the best part is that it actually buffs your HPS to do so.

    Just think of how many times you see someone at extremely low health during bursts and you know that a PoH or CoH won't save them. Casting an FH for free and gain HPS while doing it is just insanely good and it would be worth it even if FDCL had significantly lower mana return compared to mindbender.

    Just think of it you are gaining a 50% bonus to PoH per serendipity stack ATM. If you think about it with the new 2set, you are gaining 1.15s from Half a PoH every time you cast an FH and on top of that you are getting 0.46s off the castime of your next PoH too. That means the FH cast not only does not cost you any time, but it actually gives you back 0.1s per cast. Although the gap between PoHs is raised by ~0.9s, your second PoH is 1.5 times larger. In essense, you get the healing from the FH and you get 0.1s of extra casting time too. It is just too good to pass under any conditions of very high damage. Even if the FH healed for nothing, it would still be a gain in HPS.
    confirm/deny?

  12. #12
    FDCL is annoying, and if your meta procs at the moment you use an FDCL proc your free heal is super free (ie. no real mana savings) and you lose a GCD where you could be casting other free heals during the meta proc. Then you have to avoid using FDCL during Lucidity, and I'm not sure I really enjoy that playstyle. It sounds fun, but fiddling with it in not serious testing it really didn't feel fun at all and it is punishing if used wrong in that you go oom faster. It will take some time with it to see, but Mindbender works and on new progression it might be better to stick with what works.

    As for gemming and reforging I like to have Haste to the 4721 breakpoint then go Mastery=Crit. I love being able to spam 4 or 5 Renews for free during Lucidity, and mix that in with my AE healing on fights with constant or random damage. Serenity Chakra will be interesting to use in 5.4 as a AE healing stance with cloak procs that do AE healing.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Zolvolt View Post
    confirm/deny?
    That is correct.

    The interesting thing is, on phases with high damage spread evenly across the raid, CoH actually becomes a HPS loss. In such situations, you're better off using a FH -> PoH rotation for optimal output. BH would be even better, and a glyphed BH -> PoH rotation is the maximum output one can achieve if mana is a non-factor.

    Also, a FH -> PoH combo yields as much HPS as a PoH -> DI combo once you lose the current 2 piece bonus. The former will obviously be more mana consumptive, but this technically means that you're better off with PI or Solace/ToF, assuming mana isn't an issue. The type of raid damage obviously matters, as DI has better spot healing capabilities then your FH -> PoH combo.
    Last edited by Basmothh; 2013-09-07 at 07:36 PM.

  14. #14
    Field Marshal Brightmist's Avatar
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    Since it's discussed here, at what point ToF > DI ?

    I really feel like having 2 different procs makes the class somewhat more unreliable than it's supposed to.

  15. #15
    I'm probably going to drop DI for ToF if I get the new 2/4 piece bonuses, but DI is just too good to pass up on with the current 2 piece bonus. That's the point where a FH -> PoH combo matches the HPS of a PoH -> DI one, which means you're not gaining any extra output from DI over FH. Still, it'll also depend on the kind of fight, as I can't imagine dropping DI on fights that require a lot of spread healing as we don't really have many other sources of spot healing.
    Last edited by Basmothh; 2013-09-07 at 07:51 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by CharityDKT View Post
    Perhaps if you're raiding LFR. Heroic progression requires "buttloads" of spirit as Holy, especially with the amount of raw healing required in SoO.
    Maybe 10k was pushing it as far as heroics go, but having well over 15k is unreasonable, especially if you're sporting HLG.

  17. #17
    High Overlord Zolvolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basmothh View Post
    I'm probably going to drop DI for ToF if I get the new 2/4 piece bonuses, but DI is just too good to pass up on with the current 2 piece bonus. That's the point where a FH -> PoH combo matches the HPS of a PoH -> DI one, which means you're not gaining any extra output from DI over FH. Still, it'll also depend on the kind of fight, as I can't imagine dropping DI on fights that require a lot of spread healing as we don't really have many other sources of spot healing.
    I love information like this, thank you much!

    Does anyone know if disc is still going to be MB/Solace and PI or if we'll be good to use DI ToT or FDCL?
    Last edited by Zolvolt; 2013-09-07 at 11:44 PM.

  18. #18
    Field Marshal Brightmist's Avatar
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    I'm planning to pick up ToF for disc as an all arounder with the recent buffs unless there are multiple shields needed on one target in which case I might switch to DI (maybe on nazgrim/dark shaman heroic that is). I don't really plan on using PI anymore.

    I'm still undecided on 45 talents but will probably switching it up/trying out on normals a bit more to check their synergy with SoO encounter mechanics (for MB and FDCL that is).

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
    Maybe 10k was pushing it as far as heroics go, but having well over 15k is unreasonable, especially if you're sporting HLG.
    18k spirit works for me.
    Just because you don't use that much doesn't mean it's wrong.

    You can knock me for using that much, but as far as throughput goes, I do more than fine.

  20. #20
    First off;
    Stop worrying about HPS
    Second Don't cast unless you have to IE don't stack spirit so you can roll echo.
    third your Holy, stop trying to top meters and due what Holy does best. Save the day

    IMO
    No one can answer for you what is best with Holy in it's state. If your healers can't top anyone off ever and people die. Go Haste to a point to answer burst, then go mastery. If people are usually topped off within a few and no one is dieing start looking at Crit. Above all, I recommend gemming INT after your spirit cap then look at secondary stats.

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