New Rushing Jade Wind question

[Warstar]

With the way the talent has been redesigned it seems like its become a whole lot better for a smaller number of aoe targets but is there a target range from where it's better at say 2-6 targets but after that spinning crane kick does higher damage? I know it's not channeled the way that SCK is but it seems that since it has a lower damage than SCK that eventually the standard SCK damage would over take it again since the extra 20% across all targets would eventually out damage the single target damage that ww or bm monks are doing. Thinking like a fight such as Tortos or the 4th boss in HoF that I can't think of the name of right now where there are a decent amount of adds up for a long time. Would the extra 20% of normal SCK do more damage?

Does anyone know if it has a specific range that it's good at and then becomes bad again? Or is it just a general upgrade (I know the lack of channel is huge since you can now interrupt or re apply shuffle as a BM without being locked into your channel) and the number of adds you'd need to out damage it would be a high enough number that it's rarely if ever seen?

[Senen]

You also lose the +30% damage on Spinning kick (and the free Shuffle).
I'd expect it to be more a nerf than a up in Challenge Modes, for instance.

[Grubjuice]

You also lose the +30% damage on Spinning kick (and the free Shuffle).
I'd expect it to be more a nerf than a up in Challenge Modes, for instance.

what are you even talking about?
there is no such thing as a free shuffle,

the OLD rjw provided a shuffle at the cost of two chi (the same cost as a BoK), essentially allowing you to replace one BoK with a RJW every 30 seconds, allowing you to increase shuffle uptime at a normal rate but increase AoE effectivness,

the NEW rjw allows you to replace one jab with a rjw every 6 seconds, allowing you to generate chi at your normal rate but increase AoE effectiveness.

- - - Updated - - -

to OP, use RJW in any situation where you normally be using Spinning Crane Kick a lot.

As you already know, The point of the new RJW is you can still cast abilities like Tiger Palm, Elusive Brew, Purifying Brew, Roll, etc. while still doing AoE damage. Spinning Crane Kick interrupts all other abilities for three global cooldowns, RJW allows you to AoE for a duration of 6 global cooldowns at the cost of only 1 global cooldown and you can still use all other rotational abilities.

If you feel like RJW is not doing enough damage and you need to use SCK then your not really thinking like a tank, a tank's job is soak damage, and you will do more damage the more damage you take so long as you can maintain all your tanking uptimes (elusive brew, shuffle, etc.) so in an AoE heavy fight, RJW is still the best option, since it allows you continue to tank as you increase the number of targets your attacking.

[Totaltotemic]

Thought I should point out that the patch note update says that the RJW buff should affect healing too (80% damage and healing), so I think they just screwed up when they pushed out the last build and forgotmt buff the healing part too.

[Orion Antares]

You also lose the +30% damage on Spinning kick (and the free Shuffle).
I'd expect it to be more a nerf than a up in Challenge Modes, for instance.

Challenge modes are the one place the RJW would be a huge buff.

Raids are where the new RJW is questionable compared to Xuen, though the current RJW is near useless in raids anyways so almost anything is an improvement over that.

[Warstar]

what are you even talking about?
there is no such thing as a free shuffle,

the OLD rjw provided a shuffle at the cost of two chi (the same cost as a BoK), essentially allowing you to replace one BoK with a RJW every 30 seconds, allowing you to increase shuffle uptime at a normal rate but increase AoE effectivness,

the NEW rjw allows you to replace one jab with a rjw every 6 seconds, allowing you to generate chi at your normal rate but increase AoE effectiveness.

- - - Updated - - -

to OP, use RJW in any situation where you normally be using Spinning Crane Kick a lot.

As you already know, The point of the new RJW is you can still cast abilities like Tiger Palm, Elusive Brew, Purifying Brew, Roll, etc. while still doing AoE damage. Spinning Crane Kick interrupts all other abilities for three global cooldowns, RJW allows you to AoE for a duration of 6 global cooldowns at the cost of only 1 global cooldown and you can still use all other rotational abilities.

If you feel like RJW is not doing enough damage and you need to use SCK then your not really thinking like a tank, a tank's job is soak damage, and you will do more damage the more damage you take so long as you can maintain all your tanking uptimes (elusive brew, shuffle, etc.) so in an AoE heavy fight, RJW is still the best option, since it allows you continue to tank as you increase the number of targets your attacking.

For a ten man tank damage can be important.

And once you get to a certain time of shuffle up time chi management gets infinitely easier. QoL the change seems really cool since SCK lasting for 3 seconds every once in awhile at the start of a fight means that you get a second of 0 shuffled damage which sucks or you're stuck in a SCK and can't purifying brew.

My question was just a pure damage question though as well as for a dps perspective is if taking RJW will be a nerf to dps at a time since while using RJW you can keep up your chi generation, you can keep up your single target dps so it seems strong for a cleave situation but seems like in a mass aoe situation that SCK will do more damage at a certain number of people.

I was just wondering if anyone knows at what number of mobs will SCK out perform RJW for dps?

[lairpie]

With the latest numbers, RJW will nearly always be better for tanking than using SCK for any number of targets over 3. There may still be a situation where Xuen is even better because his cleave is perfect against 3 targets that are up for the right amount of time for his CD to work well, but just comparing using RJW vs not having RJW, RJW is always going to win over spamming SCK. Even in a purely aoeing damage scenario you are still spending a lot of your GCDs doing things that aren't SCK. You still use Keg smash every 8 seconds. you still have to BoK at least every 6 seconds. If you're overflowing enough on chi to use BoF you'd use that, you still keep TP up. You use guard. You use your T30 talent. I didn't do a full breakdown of timing on those, but I think it's clear you spend something in the neighborhood of 1/2, often more your time not using SCK even on an SCK spamming fight. RJW keeps doing damage during those non SCK globals so you get less damage from RJW in the 2 seconds where you would have been doing your SCK, but you more than make that up in the next 2 seconds were you would have used a TP and a Keg smash or something. Now RJW isn't perfect uptime either because haste screws with it's alignment with our GCD but that's a problem for SCK too in that you end up with partially empty globals to avoid pushing keg smash back.

[Rockets]

It's not number of mobs that matters, it's how much uptime you have with 3+ mobs. (Below 3 you don't get the chi from it and so Xuen+SCK is obviously better.)

I did a bunch of math here originally but the short story is that in the sustained case (10+ seconds of aoe), RJW is cheap enough that you can keep it up 100% of the time and still KS every 9s at 0 haste. Going up to ~25% haste lets you keep RJW up all the time and KS on cooldown. SCK has at best ~60% uptime if you drop KS out of your rotation entirely, because it's 40 energy for a 2.25s buff and so you're losing ~15 energy every time you use it. If you keep KS at a higher priority than SCK, it's more like 30% uptime on SCK.

So my handwavey advice would be:
#1: If there is something obvious to use Xuen on for 45s every 3m, you're probably best off bringing him. He's good at what he does, so take advantage of him if you can.

#2: If there are add waves that you need to burst down in 10s or less, bring SCK and either Xuen or Torpedo as appropriate. Pool energy to 100 before the adds spawn, KS, SCK x2-3 (depending on haste), KS, and then you're out of energy and everything had better be dead. Chi Torpedo and Chi Burst can be added in there to give you more time to regen and sustain it a bit longer, something like KS, CT, SCKx2, KS, CB, CT, SCK, KS.

#3: If you won't have the opportunity to pool energy, or the adds are around for more than 10-15s at a time, bring RJW and weave it with KS. If there are that many adds around for that long, you should probably bring Chi Burst too, or ZS if you can manage keeping it up on yourself and someone else whose explosion will be in range.

[Avada Kedavra]

Can someone please tell me if the NEW RJW will interrupt flag caps like the current SCK does? I need to know if this will be a viable PvP talent. If it does not, than NO ONE in PvP will take it.

[lairpie]

#2: If there are add waves that you need to burst down in 10s or less, bring SCK and either Xuen or Torpedo as appropriate. Pool energy to 100 before the adds spawn, KS, SCK x2-3 (depending on haste), KS, and then you're out of energy and everything had better be dead. Chi Torpedo and Chi Burst can be added in there to give you more time to regen and sustain it a bit longer, something like KS, CT, SCKx2, KS, CB, CT, SCK, KS.

Ok, good premise, describes killing ball lightning, killing bats fast, let's go with it.
1 RJW is 180% of the damage of 1 SCK, takes ~1/2 the cast time, but lasts 3 times longer. The problem is you would only get at 3 SCKs in your 10 second window, because keg smash, chi burst, and breath of fire are all better. 2 RJWs 3.6 SCKs worth of damage, but do more damage for 40 less energy. Haste screws with this, but with my wopping 3331 haste, I'm going to sort of ignore that for the moment other than counting sck as only taking 2 seconds even though it's a base cast of 2.25. Outside of that, haste doesn't really affect anything here unless you have a ton. which may turn out to be interesting for aoe, but yeah, ignoring for now.


RJW damage (it says .8 for the tick rate, but down below on wow head it says 750 milliseconds which i imagine is just rounding to .8)
0 tick
.75 tick
1.5 tick
2.25 tick
3 tick
3.75 tick
4.5 tick
5.25 tick
6 tick

9 ticks that total 1.8 times a sck

sck's damage
0 tick
.75 tick
1.5 tick
2.25 tick (rounding down to 2 because of haste)

4 ticks

RJW does .8 per tick, 9/4ths as many ticks.
1.8 times as much damage.

corroboration from http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post22311454

Just tested on the PTR: RJW has been fixed. It is now 80% of SCK damage. And the clone does the same RJW damage as the monk.

With the new numbers, one SCK tick is set to be 100 damage:
Damage per resource:
SCK is 400 damage / 40 energy -> 10 DPR
RJW is 720 damage / 40 energy -> 18 DPR
Damage per second (1target, 0 haste):
SCK is 400 damage / 2.25 s -> 177.78 DPS
RJW is 720 damage / 6 s -> 120 DPS

720/400 = 1.8



0 ks (60 energy after)
1 BoF (70)
2 sck start (40)
3 sck finish (50)
4 chi burst start (60)
5 chi burst finish (70)
6 sck start (40)
7 sck finish (50)
8 KS (20)
9 SCK start ( being lazy and counting 10 energy per second says you couldn't do this but you can if i counted the energy from ox and haste so ignore that )
10 sck finish

2 keg smashes
1 chi burst
1 bof plus the full dot
3 scks
(i'm not sure if actually doing 1 more bof and a jab or tp or something is more damage than a SCK, but that would only tilt this further)


compare to

0 ks
1 RJW start (we get the full damage from this one) so we're at 1.8 SCK's of damage
2 BoF
3 chi burst start
4 chi burst finish
5
6
7 RJW start (a tick at 7, 7.75, 8.5, 9.25, 10. so you're getting 5 ticks here)
8 KS
9
10

Just that, leaving 4 globals empty you get:
2 keg smashes
1 chi burst
1 bof plus the full dot
1 and 5/9ths of a RJW = 2.8 SCKs

So you're trading .2 SCKs for 4 free GCDs, 40 energy, the loss of 1 chi (you could call it 3 GCDs and a jab damage and the energy, chi are even), and some auto attacks, EB stacks. Also these adds are probably stunnable, possibly interuptable, disarmable and you're not prevented from doing those. If you pooled energy to start, you'd be able to

(I'm just counting energy to show you wouldn't run out, i know you actually get more than 10 per second)
0 ks (4 chi - 60 energy)
1 RJW start (we get the full damage from this one) so we're at 1.8 SCK's of damage - (5 chi 30 energy)
2 BoF (3 chi 40 energy)
3 chi burst start (3, 50)
4 chi burst finish (3, 60)
5 bof (1, 70)
6 watch tv or TP or something (1,80)
7 RJW start (a tick at 7, 7.75, 8.5, 9.25, 10. so you're getting 5 ticks here) ( 2, 50)
8 KS (4,20)
9 Bof (2,30)
10 Bof (0,40)

2 keg smashes
1 chi burst
1 bof plus the full dot
3 bof that don't really get much dot help
a tiger palm
1 and 5/9ths of a RJW = 2.8 SCKs

So purely for damage, 3 bof (no dot) and a tiger palm vs .2 SCKs.

Working in things like chi brew, more haste, actually using defensive abilities like a CD, caring about EB generation, using leg sweep or clash, or who knows what is going to push things even farther towards RJW. If you need the shuffle, obviously you'd use BoK not BoF, but the physical ability to do that is another point in RJW's favor.

So, as long as there's really pretty much any amount of hitting 3 or more targets, RJW is going to beat not having RJW for tanking. Now, again it's possible for xuen + SCK to beat RJW if the targets are say, up for 45 seconds out of every 3 minutes or something, or maybe even chi torp if no melee are attacking them, but for general aoe, sustained or in bursts against 3 or more targets, purely going for dps or caring about survival stuff too, RJW is the way to go now for tanking.

[Rockets]

Nice analysis.

The main counterpoint I'd make is that in this scenario you're effectively gaining 3x BoF by trading away Xuen. If it's a 30s add cycle like bats, you can have Xuen up for two out of every six add waves if you use him right as one group arrives, and I suspect he'll do more damage than 18 no-dot BoFs, especially if he switches onto the boss for the 20s between waves. (And wow it will be so nice to have an actual pet bar for him.)

It's pretty clear that in the steady-state case, RJW is the way to go because you can literally have it up for every second of a fifteen-minute fight if you want to, without hardly affecting your rotation. Or you can leave your rotation exactly the same and just replace Jab with RJW and still get pretty good uptime on it.

As the aoe window becomes smaller, the numbers skew more towards SCK + Xuen/CT, and I think the break-even point is somewhere between 5-15s. For a 5s burst, SCK is clearly better, as you don't even have time for the first RJW to finish and get its full damage, let alone get the full 8s dot from a BoF. It'd be something like KS, CB/SCK, SCK. For a 10-15s window I think it's debatable and depends on things like whether you're willing to spend chi on BoF. For a 20s window, SCK will run you so dry on energy and cost you so many GCDs that RJW is going to be a much better choice, and you'll probably only be able to time Xuen to get one of those windows per use.

[lairpie]

That sounds like exactly how a talent should be, where there's situations where it's better, situations for it's worse, depends on how you value things, etc. I'm still unsure about the whole thing someone said where RJW cancels interupts your swing timer for no apparent reason. that would be sort of dumb.