1. #1

    Thoughts on gated 5 man content

    Looking at past expansions, some of the funnest things were doing 5 mans. Right now there are a few available at beginning level in MoP, and more added after that, but the problem is, as soon as you hit 90, you grind them like crazy just to get an ilvl, move on to heroics, and progress etc. Within a month from launch a good portion of the wow player base is burnt out.


    Now I know many will say that 5 man progression is simply for an entrance into raids, but aside from the merry-go-round trip of lfr, is there any reason to burn out the casual majority of wow players?

    Looking back to bc, we had a system in place where you would grind a particular set of dungeons, each giving rep for the same faction, and upon hitting revered (i think it was revered) you could then do the heroic for that dungeon. People look back fondly on bc for the most part because it took longer to progress, and even the casual base would partake in rep grinding.

    Now a days it just feels like once you hit a certain level there is no purpose to go back and do the 5man content. So I was thinking about some sort of gating for 5 mans, in that you would start out with 1 or 2, similar to Mop, but your entry into the next 5 man would be determined by your play time on the previous 2, and so forth from there. Ultimately it would only add about an extra month or two for most people before getting beyond the progression, but a rep grind would definatly make the 5 mans more playable upon hitting max level.

    I know blizzard hates 5 mans in that it takes longer to make due to tile sets, but lets face it. By the time 5.2 hit and there were no new 5 mans, players began leaving in droves and this may be a contributing factor.

    I myself am not a huge fan of lfr (and do not have the time to join a raiding guild). I may do some flexes in the near future, but what I enjoy most out of the game is 5 mans, and since last spring, I haven't had any new things to do, and I know i'm not alone here.

    A return to a rep grind/dungeon instead of dailies I think would be a breath of fresh, yet familiar air.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Similar experiment with heroic difficulty at the beggining of cata and it didn`t end up well for the playerbase and blizz
    Quote Originally Posted by Manabomb View Post
    Seriously, this whole crusade against opinions and criticizing Blizzard in general really shows who blindly throws money at corporations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    No they don't. I have yet to see anyone who raids LFR complain that LFR drops gear of lesser value than normal/heroic (heroic/mythic), but all I hear is raiders in heroic/mythic bitching about people in LFR getting any rewards.

  3. #3
    Is it good for business? Will Blizzard lose or gain more customers because of it? If your adding more rep grinds and driving casuals (the huge majority of paying customers) away than you should just delete this and move on to other things. In Blizzards world Money > Opinions and Blizzard is not about to lose a good % of players because you think we need more rep grinds and to bring back the "glory" days of Wow. Just remember they removed it for a reason.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by rpdrichard View Post
    Similar experiment with heroic difficulty at the beggining of cata and it didn`t end up well for the playerbase and blizz
    If I remember correctly, there were other problems with that. First was you needed to literally explore the area and discover the instances, this alone threw off a lot of new players from the end of wrath.

    Besides that though, for hte casual base, most heroics were tuned a bit too difficult that many up and left.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakeseye0 View Post
    Is it good for business? Will Blizzard lose or gain more customers because of it? If your adding more rep grinds and driving casuals (the huge majority of paying customers) away than you should just delete this and move on to other things. In Blizzards world Money > Opinions and Blizzard is not about to lose a good % of players because you think we need more rep grinds and to bring back the "glory" days of Wow. Just remember they removed it for a reason.
    I'm not sure if it would be good or not, hence the post.

    One of blizz's biggest problems is boredom, that people blow through content so fast, then they unsub until the next patch/expansion.

    at the very least blizz needs to add more 5 man content.

    as far as going back to the glory days as you say it, that wasn't my intent. every single expansion blizz changes the ways things are done, for better or worse. eventually they will retry a few things.

    just throwing ideas out there, welcome any criticism.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatherfork View Post
    Now a days it just feels like once you hit a certain level there is no purpose to go back and do the 5man content.
    That's because they replaced dungeons for already raid geared people. They're called heroic scenarios. Can't be random-queued, can't be facerolled by most classes that aren't decked out in heroic thunderforged gear and gives loot superior to the previous LFR. If you haven't tried one, I heavily suggest you give them a shot.

  6. #6
    Dreadlord robodin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatherfork View Post
    If I remember correctly, there were other problems with that. First was you needed to literally explore the area and discover the instances, this alone threw off a lot of new players from the end of wrath.

    Besides that though, for hte casual base, most heroics were tuned a bit too difficult that many up and left.
    It wasn't as much the tuning issue, but a combination of LFG, not knowing the dungeons that well (ie. which mobs to nuke down), and being badly undergeared (ie. at 329 exactly). Stonecore was especially bad on that one, as the first couple of pulls had the Earthshapers, which were lethal if they got a combination of Force of Earth and Dust Storm going. That, plus a large pull with a mix of casters and melee, made healing it a bitch.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    That's because they replaced dungeons for already raid geared people. They're called heroic scenarios. Can't be random-queued, can't be facerolled by most classes that aren't decked out in heroic thunderforged gear and gives loot superior to the previous LFR. If you haven't tried one, I heavily suggest you give them a shot.
    I have, and I wouldn't say they replaced 5 man content. Moreso they replaced group quests.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatherfork View Post
    Looking at past expansions, some of the funnest things were doing 5 mans.
    That's a matter of opinion.

    Spamming dungeons throughout Wrath and Cata could be equally as mind-numbing as running dailies.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    That's because they replaced dungeons for already raid geared people. They're called heroic scenarios. Can't be random-queued, can't be facerolled by most classes that aren't decked out in heroic thunderforged gear and gives loot superior to the previous LFR. If you haven't tried one, I heavily suggest you give them a shot.
    The heroic scenarios are not bad but they lack something the 5 man dungeons had, by this I don`t say they they should be BC or beggining of cata hard; a WoTLK, Dragon Soul 5 man difficulty would be ok
    Quote Originally Posted by Manabomb View Post
    Seriously, this whole crusade against opinions and criticizing Blizzard in general really shows who blindly throws money at corporations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    No they don't. I have yet to see anyone who raids LFR complain that LFR drops gear of lesser value than normal/heroic (heroic/mythic), but all I hear is raiders in heroic/mythic bitching about people in LFR getting any rewards.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by rpdrichard View Post
    The heroic scenarios are not bad but they lack something the 5 man dungeons had, by this I don`t say they they should be BC or beggining of cata hard; a WoTLK, Dragon Soul 5 man difficulty would be ok
    If the OP feels the same way, the obvioius question pops up: What kind of loot should drop? The entire reason heroic scenarios were invented was to keep old raids from becoming outdated by making a more exclusive version of a dungeon run that gives one chance a day at getting gear.

    I'd like for the next expansion to have at least twelve dungeons to run, but they're never going to go back to "Hour of Twilight" without the obvious problem that came from them. Namely: "Hit max level, buy pvp gear, run the new high ilvl dungeons, go straight to next lfr/raid within a day."

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    If the OP feels the same way, the obvioius question pops up: What kind of loot should drop? The entire reason heroic scenarios were invented was to keep old raids from becoming outdated by making a more exclusive version of a dungeon run that gives one chance a day at getting gear.

    I'd like for the next expansion to have at least twelve dungeons to run, but they're never going to go back to "Hour of Twilight" without the obvious problem that came from them. Namely: "Hit max level, buy pvp gear, run the new high ilvl dungeons, go straight to next lfr/raid within a day."
    That's true they can't bring the old dungeon catch up system without hurting LFR participation, why to run LFR when you can run a dungeon in 1/4 of the time it takes LFR and get better gear, but the problem now is that heroic 5 man are completely irrelevant and there's no incentive to run them and is also why we didn't get any new 5-man in the patches of this expansion. Now how to adress this I don't know sadly, hope blizz figure out a way for the next expansion
    Quote Originally Posted by Manabomb View Post
    Seriously, this whole crusade against opinions and criticizing Blizzard in general really shows who blindly throws money at corporations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    No they don't. I have yet to see anyone who raids LFR complain that LFR drops gear of lesser value than normal/heroic (heroic/mythic), but all I hear is raiders in heroic/mythic bitching about people in LFR getting any rewards.

  12. #12
    they should just do what they done with scenarios and add a harder version of 5 mans which can only be done with a premade group, and drops better gear every now and then.

    could be similar to challenge mode difficulty (although i cant say as i havent done challenge mode before), the only difference is you will be rewarded gear, which is probably the main reason challenge mode 5 mans arent extremely popular

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatherfork View Post
    Looking back to bc, we had a system in place where you would grind a particular set of dungeons, each giving rep for the same faction, and upon hitting revered (i think it was revered) you could then do the heroic for that dungeon. People look back fondly on bc for the most part because it took longer to progress, and even the casual base would partake in rep grinding.
    People hated it even back then. Why do you think they changed it from revered to honored after just three months ?

  14. #14
    Herald of the Titans Packers01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robodin View Post
    It wasn't as much the tuning issue, but a combination of LFG, not knowing the dungeons that well (ie. which mobs to nuke down), and being badly undergeared (ie. at 329 exactly). Stonecore was especially bad on that one, as the first couple of pulls had the Earthshapers, which were lethal if they got a combination of Force of Earth and Dust Storm going. That, plus a large pull with a mix of casters and melee, made healing it a bitch.
    Its hard to target a skull.

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