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  1. #21
    Field Marshal Preheet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moronordon View Post
    Here is a compare LIVE vs PTR, done with simulationcraft, calculations from my mage (Ilvl538).
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...onordon/simple

    According to my simcraft result the nerf is more than 30%.

    LIVE Combustion damage
    With Glyph 2 289 618 damage per execution (DPE) (DPS = 26 040) (95sec interval)

    PTR Combustion damage
    With Glyph 964 602 damage per execution (DPE) (DPS = 10 971) (95 sec interval)
    Without Glyph 389 912 damage per execution (DPE) (DPS = 7 852) (52 sec interval)

    These are priority stats for my character it might differ from yours. (Ilvl538). (Normalized)
    I have around 48% crit in raids.

    LIVE
    HIT = 100 (till 15%)
    Intellect = 89
    Haste = 67
    Crit = 64
    Mastery = 63

    PTR
    Intellect = 100
    HIT = 99 (till 15%)
    Crit = 68
    Haste = 61
    Mastery = 54

    Differences between LIVE and PTR
    CRIT = +4
    HASTE = -6
    MASTERY = -9

    Impossible for me to add the results here so here is a link to the file.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/96kquigroz...0live_ptr.html

    I hope i didn't miss anything.
    Just by looking at your results, it would seem that the difference between glyphing it and unglyphing it wouldn't be toooooo big of an increase. Your calculations for PTR and Live seem pretty reasonable aswell.. it would further prove that fire mastery is just not as viable anymore, and should be avoided over haste.

    But I'm feeling pretty comfortable going into 5.4 as fire. arcane just seems like a hassle to switch to purely for progression when it wouldn't be pulling ahead by that much anyways.

    Cheers guys,

  2. #22
    High Overlord Henzington's Avatar
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    Given how little hit there is on BiS, gemming expertise seems like the way to go next tier.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Henzington View Post
    Given how little hit there is on BiS, gemming expertise seems like the way to go next tier.
    We will see what AMR says

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Henzington View Post
    Given how little hit there is on BiS, gemming expertise seems like the way to go next tier.
    Atm we have close to 35k secondary stats at BiS. All by 1 item has 2 stats per item and 40% of 1 stat can be converted to hit, so 5100/0.2 is 25500 rating.. Somehow I don't see use gemming for exp unless we are really low on crit pieces or haste is better than 0.5 int.. But hell I haven't been keeping up on gear much or stat weights, so can't really say.. Kinda sounds weird to be gemming exp for the final tier, cause we are hit starved on gear if either haste or crit is weaker than 0.5 int..

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Atm we have close to 35k secondary stats at BiS. All by 1 item has 2 stats per item and 40% of 1 stat can be converted to hit, so 5100/0.2 is 25500 rating.. Somehow I don't see use gemming for exp unless we are really low on crit pieces or haste is better than 0.5 int.. But hell I haven't been keeping up on gear much or stat weights, so can't really say.. Kinda sounds weird to be gemming exp for the final tier, cause we are hit starved on gear if either haste or crit is weaker than 0.5 int..
    The benefit of gemming exp (or more likely, exp/crit) in red sockets is that you'd need to reforge into less hit, thereby giving you more crit/haste/mastery. Assuming all of the gemmed expertise is useful and assuming 2x secondary > 1x intellect, this should be a dps gain over using int/crit in red sockets.

  6. #26
    Epic! Valanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    The benefit of gemming exp (or more likely, exp/crit) in red sockets is that you'd need to reforge into less hit, thereby giving you more crit/haste/mastery. Assuming all of the gemmed expertise is useful and assuming 2x secondary > 1x intellect, this should be a dps gain over using int/crit in red sockets.
    2 crit > 1 int, not 2 of any secondary. Since we will no doubt max out crit on reforging anyway, gemming that way has no net crit gain, only haste/mastery/hit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Trolling will result in the loss of your forum posting privileges, and the removal of your genitals with my teeth while I hum Oasis songs.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Valanna View Post
    2 crit > 1 int, not 2 of any secondary. Since we will no doubt max out crit on reforging anyway, gemming that way has no net crit gain, only haste/mastery/hit.
    Every secondary stat is 50%+ of int's value @ T16H in the PTR version of SimC that I'm using.

  8. #28
    Epic! Valanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    Every secondary stat is 50%+ of int's value @ T16H in the PTR version of SimC that I'm using.
    Is there an idiot in every village who still trusts Simulationcraft? Fire has been optimised differently than what SimC suggests for ages now, the program has truly gone to shit. Last time we had a trustworthy simulator was Rawr in ICC. Both Haste and Mastery is going down in relative value next patch, mastery is taking a much bigger hit. If it's a good idea in 5.4, we'd already be doing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Trolling will result in the loss of your forum posting privileges, and the removal of your genitals with my teeth while I hum Oasis songs.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Valanna View Post
    Is there an idiot in every village who still trusts Simulationcraft?
    Feel free to point out any bugs in the sim that you're aware of. Until then, it's probably more useful than gut feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valanna View Post
    If it's a good idea in 5.4, we'd already be doing it.
    Well, live gear has lots of hit on it. That's not true of 5.4 gear, which is why the possible gem strategy change was brought up in the first place.

  10. #30
    Epic! Valanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    Feel free to point out any bugs in the sim that you're aware of. Until then, it's probably more useful than gut feelings.


    Well, live gear has lots of hit on it. That's not true of 5.4 gear, which is why the possible gem strategy change was brought up in the first place.
    Gut feeling? Please. I spent countless of hours as both arcane and fire testing on the PTR, along with other top tier mages. Haste and mastery suddenly being better than 0.5 int wouldn't get past the whole community until 1 week before launch. It's a ridiculous notion and I'm treating it as such.

    I know that when I played with BotH (most of ToT), I could reforge myself to a good amount below 5100. That's with Fetish/Nadagast combo and both hit rings. If it were a good choice, we would still gem expertise until we couldn't get our hit below cap. It isn't a good idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Trolling will result in the loss of your forum posting privileges, and the removal of your genitals with my teeth while I hum Oasis songs.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Valanna View Post
    Gut feeling? Please.
    Yes. Post the math to justify your position - otherwise it's merely a gut feeling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valanna View Post
    Haste and mastery suddenly being better than 0.5 int wouldn't get past the whole community until 1 week before launch. It's a ridiculous notion and I'm treating it as such.
    Based on...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valanna View Post
    I know that when I played with BotH (most of ToT), I could reforge myself to a good amount below 5100. That's with Fetish/Nadagast combo and both hit rings. If it were a good choice, we would still gem expertise until we couldn't get our hit below cap. It isn't a good idea.
    "If it were a good choice we'd be doing it" ... unless you never considered the possibility.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    Yes. Post the math to justify your position - otherwise it's merely a gut feeling.


    Based on...?


    "If it were a good choice we'd be doing it" ... unless you never considered the possibility.
    Mastery is garbage for Fire mages which is why we have no haste break points any longer going with crit,haste,mastery. Combustion dmg is complete crap now.

  13. #33
    just a question, with the stat change making Mastery not as good as it was. Dose this mean that we will ignore the haste break points.

    - - - Updated - - -

    for the fire spec sorry

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by KryoDrix View Post
    just a question, with the stat change making Mastery not as good as it was. Dose this mean that we will ignore the haste break points.

    - - - Updated - - -

    for the fire spec sorry
    Yes we will no longer be aiming for a breakpoint then dumping stats into mastery.

  15. #35
    thank you Very much for the info, it helps a lot off to play with AMR

  16. #36
    Field Marshal Preheet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valanna View Post
    Is there an idiot in every village who still trusts Simulationcraft? Fire has been optimised differently than what SimC suggests for ages now, the program has truly gone to shit. Last time we had a trustworthy simulator was Rawr in ICC. Both Haste and Mastery is going down in relative value next patch, mastery is taking a much bigger hit. If it's a good idea in 5.4, we'd already be doing it.
    This... this this this this x100000.

    SimCraft's interations are terrible. There is so much flaw when you're playing fire and testing it with SC.

    For now, I would say just wait until Normal SoO is cleared and look at what mages like Vykina are saying about fire. I'm sure all this discussion will be simplified soon, don't worry

  17. #37
    Simc is a really good tool for warlocks and other classes with good support, for mages is useless (for example it was quite a lol on T12 when arcane, according to simc, was almost equal to fire). It's better than nothing that's for sure.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    Yes. Post the math to justify your position - otherwise it's merely a gut feeling.


    Based on...?


    "If it were a good choice we'd be doing it" ... unless you never considered the possibility.
    Please take the time to differentiate between specs at least. Fire mage Simcraft is not reliable at all. For Frost mages, it is a different story, since the rotation is straight forward, pretty much regardless of your skills.

    But Simcraft does calculate that all mages have the same skills. You have the newbie Fire mage doing 2M combustion on Jin'rokh, while you have the skilled one doing 12M. To the skilled mage, Mastery is obvisously better than haste, as for the newbie mage, Haste will pull ahead, that was in 5.2-5.3.

    The proof to my claim, look at what is happening in 5.4. Our combustion skill bonus is being removed, and thus Mastery will go down the drain. It was never a question of "our mastery" being good, it was simply a tool for combustion.

    Simcraft does have its place, but out of all the specs in the game, Fire is the least compatible with it.

  19. #39
    ill be expertise gemming if i go fire for red sockets, more than liekly 160 haste is still more dps increase than 80 int, and if i can reforge out of more hit into haste then im trading int for haste at 1:2

    the way i see it something like 1000 int vs 2000 haste would be a no brainer, you have on 1 hand maybe .4% crit and +2-3% spell power, vs about 5% haste

  20. #40
    Hi Magicians,

    Maybe the Combustion nerf is not going to happen ....check Dev Watercooler and Ghostcrawler's notes.

    "As of this writing, we haven’t made any mechanical changes to Fire, though if you saw any earlier patch notes, we experimented with a few. Long term, we still have concerns about the interplay between Alter Time and Combustion, and we still have concerns about Fire scaling with Critical Strike, but we’re not convinced either of these problems is so egregious that it needs to be fixed in Patch 5.4."

    Cheers
    Harry's

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