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  1. #21
    I remember i read somewhere that the reason of it was only because they didnt want to release the whole raid to these "LFR raiders" so they would clean the whole raid at day one and then go to wow forums making thread about why there isnt enough content
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  2. #22
    Bloodsail Admiral Invictus9001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isuridedes View Post
    LFR is not designed for the purposes you're applying to it. LFR exists only so that people who cannot or will not attend 10/25 man raids still have an opportunity to experience the content Blizzard has created.
    Mechanics purposefully removed from LFR versions of encounters do not render the LFR encounters unable to teach players an idea of what to expect going forward into other versions. Yes, other versions will have those omitted mechanics. Yes, other versions will have less room for error/be less forgiving for mistakes. LFR isn't built specifically as a teaching tool - but it becomes one by experiencing fights over and over, and gives one a chance to obtain gear so players might actually be able to pug into normal versions (and upcoming flex versions) of content.

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  3. #23
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonman View Post
    I remember i read somewhere that the reason of it was only because they didnt want to release the whole raid to these "LFR raiders" so they would clean the whole raid at day one and then go to wow forums making thread about why there isnt enough content

    Raid content is really intended to be progressed through by building a competent team of people, in appropriate leveled gear, that work together to solve difficult challenges through expert knowledge - and execution of - within the game. Some people don't have time for that, they can't commit to a raid schedule (although both those groups should be looking toward Flex as it is very much for them!), just want to see the content, aren't very good at the game, or just aren't playing to be in a social situation, and want to run LFR, and we think that's great, and it's great LFR is right up their alley and let's them see the content, it is there for those reasons, but that doesn't mean that it should be available and allow access to content many weeks faster than is intended through progression raiding.





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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Invictus9001 View Post
    Mechanics purposefully removed from LFR versions of encounters do not render the LFR encounters unable to teach players an idea of what to expect going forward into other versions. Yes, other versions will have those omitted mechanics. Yes, other versions will have less room for error/be less forgiving for mistakes. LFR isn't built specifically as a teaching tool - but it becomes one by experiencing fights over and over, and gives one a chance to obtain gear so players might actually be able to pug into normal versions (and upcoming flex versions) of content.
    Yes, but LFR only works as a teaching tool to a) give people a glance at the fight (sometimes a first glance, if they do it before they do it in normal), and b) a way to see how (after trying it on normal) certain strategies *should* play out. If you just try to take what you know from LFR and apply it to Normal, you *might* get halfway there for most fights, but on some fights you'll be completely screwed. Ideally, learning fights will come from multiple sources, but outside the basic level of the fight, any learning in LFR has to be done with the context of normal mode exposure.

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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I love the smell of special pleading in the morning. It smells like ... logical failure.
    But... it's true. A guild that appears on wowprogress isn't necessarily a raiding guild, just like playing soccer doesn't necessarily make you a professional athlete. Raiding guilds are guilds whose main focus is raiding, not guilds who happen to kill a boss once in a blue moon.

  6. #26
    LFR is gated so Normal mode guilds have a chance to kill Garrosh in Normal mode before they kill him in LFR.

  7. #27
    Herald of the Titans Asmodias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darklord0110 View Post
    I was just wondering why SoO LFR is a week later in release then 10man SoO, I just thought it would be the other way around so ppl could go though SoO LFR and learn the basics of each wing then do SoO 10man with a little bit more knowledge go into it.
    You would be better served on the PTR if you are interested in learning mechanics of 10 man fights. Though, I know that can be tough if you don't have enough people available to do it.

    As for why it's a week late... I want to say that it's to quell the felling of necessity to run LFR for gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by isuridedes View Post
    LFR is not designed for the purposes you're applying to it. LFR exists only so that people who cannot or will not attend 10/25 man raids still have an opportunity to experience the content Blizzard has created.

    Throughout this expansion LFR has been staggered behind 10/25 access. It is I suppose, one of the 'perks' of continuing to engage in 10/25 man raiding.
    This could also have something to do with it.

    It might be worth looking into Flex as an option if you don't have a regular raiding group and want to jump in. It can be done with less than 10 and it has more in the way of mechanics (when compared to the LFR version of the fight).


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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I love the smell of special pleading in the morning. It smells like ... logical failure.
    Real example of my guild:
    My guild: lost 4 ppl because of various reasons.
    Other guild: lost 5 ppl because of various reasons.
    Combined guild: we cleared ToT

    So on wowprogress that would mean 1/3 has cleared ToT while 2/3 never will.

    I don't know how prevalent this is (and I don't think you know) but what I am fairly certain of is that my guild isn't alone in this type of situation. Some simply disband because GM left. And of course some quit out of frustration of difficulty. There are many reasons why a guild would stop raiding and difficulty is only 1 of the many reasons. Also, flex mode will be available for guilds that find normal mode too difficult in 5.4.

    As for OP, LFR is not a learning tool for normal mode.
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  9. #29
    It's to encourage people to not queue up for some trivial set of 3 or 4 boss fights to see content the first week. Normal mode raiders will feel discouraged if a vast majority of the raiding population (sadly) is clearing it faster than them.

    LFR isn't a learning tool at all, no mechanic is even necessary to follow, you can stand in Africa on Durumu and get healed through eye sores, just don't get by that beam and you're golden. LS can be healed through, he doesn't even need to be on a conduit; you can stand in Thunderstruck and not get killed, you can get hit by 3 Overcharges and still live. You learn by dying to things and formulating methods to not die to them -- simple as that.
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  10. #30
    Umm. They've been releasing LFR's like this the entire xpac. How is anyone surprised?
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  11. #31
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Another reason is it forces you out onto the new content other than LRF they created. If LFR was available day 1 you would que... do lfr...get no loot...get mad... log out.

    Now you can't do lfr but there are cahnges to specs etc you want to try out thre is the new isle and loo tand quests there as well as new world bosses. What better way then holding off lfr to get the avg player to go and see the other stuff > sitting in city in que waiting to do lfr on day 1!

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    But... it's true. A guild that appears on wowprogress isn't necessarily a raiding guild, just like playing soccer doesn't necessarily make you a professional athlete. Raiding guilds are guilds whose main focus is raiding, not guilds who happen to kill a boss once in a blue moon.
    This was kinda brought up to GC on why the number of raiding guilds had dropped so much from tier to tier. GC's answer was, there was no catch going from T14 to T15 and he insisted that couldn't be dismissed. A number of folks who I believe considered themselves to be raiders and in raiding guilds have been slaughtered by the more difficult content of T14 and T15. You can say it wasn't hard at all, and you would be in the minority.

    When I look at my server, the numbers are skewed a little. I believe we lost 4-5 guilds to transfers just this tier and other guilds have just collapsed (partly to the server being dead and no new talent). I have a toon in a social guild that manage to kill Jin'rokh a couple of weeks ago, they also raid the older T14 more than current. Do they count as a raiding guild ? Probably not. But how much are the numbers really skewed ? 10%-15% ? To say the numbers are completely worthless, would require the numbers to be off by at least 35-40%.

    Guildox\WoWprogress are rough mesauring sticks. Of course, Blizzard could just release some data and shut everyone up. I think they don't because their data matches closer to Wowprogress and thus Flex raids are here.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    This was kinda brought up to GC on why the number of raiding guilds had dropped so much from tier to tier. GC's answer was, there was no catch going from T14 to T15 and he insisted that couldn't be dismissed. A number of folks who I believe considered themselves to be raiders and in raiding guilds have been slaughtered by the more difficult content of T14 and T15. You can say it wasn't hard at all, and you would be in the minority.
    For the longest time GC was all "people are still gearing up for T15". He eventually shut up about that. There are plenty of guilds out there that are ilvl 510+ with zero ToT normal kills.

    ToT normal has been open now for six months (March 5 to Sept. 6). That's a month longer than T14 was out. Yet, 38338 guilds downed Feng by the end of T14, and only 28715 have downed Horridon (I'm using second bosses to eliminate the effect of J'R being deliberately easy). A large number of guilds just gave up.

    About 1/3 of the guilds on my server that have any ToT normal progression also appear to have given up. I expect normal mode participation to be even lower in T16.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    This was kinda brought up to GC on why the number of raiding guilds had dropped so much from tier to tier. GC's answer was, there was no catch going from T14 to T15 and he insisted that couldn't be dismissed. A number of folks who I believe considered themselves to be raiders and in raiding guilds have been slaughtered by the more difficult content of T14 and T15. You can say it wasn't hard at all, and you would be in the minority.

    When I look at my server, the numbers are skewed a little. I believe we lost 4-5 guilds to transfers just this tier and other guilds have just collapsed (partly to the server being dead and no new talent). I have a toon in a social guild that manage to kill Jin'rokh a couple of weeks ago, they also raid the older T14 more than current. Do they count as a raiding guild ? Probably not. But how much are the numbers really skewed ? 10%-15% ? To say the numbers are completely worthless, would require the numbers to be off by at least 35-40%.

    Guildox\WoWprogress are rough mesauring sticks. Of course, Blizzard could just release some data and shut everyone up. I think they don't because their data matches closer to Wowprogress and thus Flex raids are here.
    I don't understand your point. Any group that actually wants to progress through ToT has done so. Those that didn't either couldn't recruit or don't really care. In both cases, they aren't raiding guilds. The question is basically how high in a group's priorities does raiding lie?

  15. #35
    Partly it's because Blizzard wants to see normal and heroic Garrosh killed in a global sense before LFR Garrosh, and partly it's to help out the significant chunk of the playerbase that does not think that running LFR is worth their time but are literally too stupid not to do it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    For the longest time GC was all "people are still gearing up for T15". He eventually shut up about that. There are plenty of guilds out there that are ilvl 510+ with zero ToT normal kills.
    I for one am glad that raids are not tuned for people in ilvl 510+ that have failed to kill normal Jin'Rokh after this long.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    I for one am glad that raids are not tuned for people in ilvl 510+ that have failed to kill normal Jin'Rokh after this long.
    The devs apparently aren't so happy about the situation, hence Flex mode.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The devs apparently aren't so happy about the situation, hence Flex mode.
    Apparently they are, hence they are introducing a new raid mode, not changing current. They recognised that the problem was not current raid difficulties, rather that the stepping stones below was.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The devs apparently aren't so happy about the situation, hence Flex mode.
    If people can't kill Jinrohk after 5-6 months, I don't think flex mode will do anything.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    For the longest time GC was all "people are still gearing up for T15". He eventually shut up about that. There are plenty of guilds out there that are ilvl 510+ with zero ToT normal kills.

    ToT normal has been open now for six months (March 5 to Sept. 6). That's a month longer than T14 was out. Yet, 38338 guilds downed Feng by the end of T14, and only 28715 have downed Horridon (I'm using second bosses to eliminate the effect of J'R being deliberately easy). A large number of guilds just gave up.

    About 1/3 of the guilds on my server that have any ToT normal progression also appear to have given up. I expect normal mode participation to be even lower in T16.
    Guilds give up for many different reasons. Many times in 10man, a single person leaving can cause the whole guild to give up because of the difficulty of finding a consistent replacement. Simply comparing feng kill and horridon kill and concluding that difficulty is the primary reason for the drop isn't entirely accurate (seems like what you are suggesting so please correct me if I am wrong).

    More over, normal mode participation trend from my person experience is always in a shape of U over a course of an expansion since wrath. Numbers start out high and then drop. The #s continue to drop until final patch with % nerfs kicking in and it starts to pick up again. I have seen this happen with wrath and cata and I wouldn't be surprised the same will happen for 5.4 when % nerf gets implemented and # of guilds finishing will start to increase.

    Lastly, Blizzard has implemented flex mode for people who find normal mode too difficult. There will be content to finish for people of all levels in 5.4.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    If people can't kill Jinrohk after 5-6 months, I don't think flex mode will do anything.
    Or, they just can't be bothered to, which in its own way is just as bad for Blizzard.

    But yeah, I have modest expectations for the success of Flex.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    I have seen this happen with wrath and cata and I wouldn't be surprised the same will happen for 5.4 when % nerf gets implemented
    Do we have any evidence that this will actually happen (progressive nerfs, I mean)?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

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