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  1. #21
    Mechagnome Raidboss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickmansMuse View Post
    We tank Horridon away from the doors to prevent the DPS from pulling aggro. Occasionally one of us will get a charge from well outside of our range. More often the tank will get one shot from not moving out of double swipe or another ability. Sometimes the healer will say something like 'an ability didn't work'.
    We wipe either on the first door, the fourth door, or on War God. In all pulls Horridon is on the opposite side of the Arena from the raid until the fourth door is finished.
    Why is Horridon so far away. The dps should be focusing on adds and only dps'ing Horridon when there are no adds up. That way healers aren't on both sides of arena...everyone is grouped up together.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by PickmansMuse View Post
    We tank Horridon away from the doors to prevent the DPS from pulling aggro. Occasionally one of us will get a charge from well outside of our range. More often the tank will get one shot from not moving out of double swipe or another ability. Sometimes the healer will say something like 'an ability didn't work'.
    We wipe either on the first door, the fourth door, or on War God. In all pulls Horridon is on the opposite side of the Arena from the raid until the fourth door is finished.
    If your tank is getting "one shot" from not moving out of double swipe, he's undergeared...or ungeared, it barely tickles, even without any AM up. If he's dying to Triple Puncture, that's him failing at his class/AM.

    As far as how many wipes is excessive, it depends, but it's critical as the raid leader to know the strengths and weaknesses of the members and make decisions accordingly. Most bosses have multiple strategies, and some strats are easier for certain raids to execute than others, while other groups will find different strats easier. But after 5-10 wipes, you should probably give your raid a break so that you can evaluate everything that's going on and figure out what, if anything, you can do to increase your odds of success.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  3. #23
    Grunt PickmansMuse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehman View Post
    We had 250 wipes on Lei Shen heroic before he dropped.

    The amount of pulls doesn't matter, the progress does. Do you see significant (Or even marginal) improvements regularly? Keep at it. If you don't? Change the tactic/Person who fails/yell at the nearest toaster.
    Then again, I have a friend who barely raids, and would much rather just spend his raid times with a group of friends, having a laugh. Which, of course, is sometimes made harder by wiping excessively, but mostly it's down to the people you're playing with to make the time fun. Ask yourself which one you'd rather be.
    That's just it. I DON'T see much improvement. I see the same errors week after week. I really do enjoy playing with the group I'm in. They are fun but I also want to progress. There should be a balance. It should be fun but we should also be getting through this wing so we can move on to new things. I an not a hardcore raider but I'm just hard enough to want to move through each raid for progression.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I think I am going to try to do the raid through Openraid a few times just to see how other groups handle the boss.

  4. #24
    Stood in the Fire PhillieB's Avatar
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    Do you have any logs or can you explain play by play how you are doing the fight and / or dps / hps. Something is very very wrong if you are wiping that much on horridon.

  5. #25
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickmansMuse View Post
    That's just it. I DON'T see much improvement. I see the same errors week after week. I really do enjoy playing with the group I'm in. They are fun but I also want to progress. There should be a balance. It should be fun but we should also be getting through this wing so we can move on to new things. I an not a hardcore raider but I'm just hard enough to want to move through each raid for progression.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I think I am going to try to do the raid through Openraid a few times just to see how other groups handle the boss.
    when did they open tot to cross server????





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  6. #26
    Do you keep logs? Do you know what the strengths and weaknesses of your raid team are? Do you know what causes your wipes? I mean, 60-70 wipes is where my raid team was on Lei Shen, and by that point I, and the rest of my raid, was frustrated, but determined to get him down. But on Horridon? True, Horridon isn't in the right spot, difficulty-wise, but if you can't identify the cause of your wipes, and then find the solution to them, you can spend hundreds of attempts on him and not get him down (before nerfs, of course).

    At this point in the patch, any raider can tell you exactly how to kill him, possibly even giving multiple strats, but it's up to your raid to actually execute the fight properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    when did they open tot to cross server????
    Next Tues/Weds. :P

  8. #28
    Grunt PickmansMuse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raidbozz View Post
    Why is Horridon so far away. The dps should be focusing on adds and only dps'ing Horridon when there are no adds up. That way healers aren't on both sides of arena...everyone is grouped up together.
    That is also my question. Example: On door 3 Horridon is tanked very near door 1 on the door 2 side. That is about the distance until the end of door 4

    - - - Updated - - -

    I haven't kept logs up to now but I think Im going t o start. It would certainly help this discussion.

  9. #29
    Well, it's a legit strategy, but it puts more pressure on some of your healers (the ones with the raid). Unless the Horridon tank is asleep (well, maybe not even then, I know I can tank Horridon in my sleep), they don't take any damage, which will make the healer over with him bored.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  10. #30
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlolz View Post
    Next Tues/Weds. :P
    \

    ah. still after it is no longer a relevant boss.





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  11. #31
    Grunt PickmansMuse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    Well, it's a legit strategy, but it puts more pressure on some of your healers (the ones with the raid). Unless the Horridon tank is asleep (well, maybe not even then, I know I can tank Horridon in my sleep), they don't take any damage, which will make the healer over with him bored.
    The tank assigned to Horridon takes a crap load of damage from what I've witnessed.

  12. #32
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    First question that springs to mind is are you solo tanking Horridon with a Paladin? If you are, then maybe he's not up to it and you should dual tank, switching after each door (aka how the fight would go if you couldn't bubble Triple Puncture).

    Second, don't tank Horridon on the opposite side. He should be tanked parallel to the door, with his side facing the raid. When someone is targeted for Charge, in theory they should run behind the Horridon tank to keep him in that general area, but let's face it that NEVER happens.

    Tell your DPS flat out that Horridon doesn't get touched while there are adds up. Yell if you have to, but restate that fact. If a single add is alive (a bit extreme but it's the principle) then you call out anyone who is DPSing Horridon and tell them to not tunnel the boss. There's zero excuse for this.

    If your tank is getting oneshot by Double Swipe... honestly I have no idea how this is happening. You should be able to eat a Double Swipe without any cooldown up, at least once in a while. What is your tank's iLevel? If you have someone in 463 blues or like a Warrior in DPS gear tanking him (or a Monk/Druid in +Int gear), then I could maybe see them getting crushed, but anything else is honestly too ridiculous to believe, no offense. There's no possible way a tank can be oneshot by Double Swipe if they're geared anywhere close to where they should be for ToT normal, assuming of course they are getting healed.

    EDIT: If your tank is taking a "crapload" of damage from Horridon, then either they are undergeared or they are just sitting there and not using their mitigation. Instruct them to watch the timer on Triple Puncture (word of caution: he'll delay it if he does a Double Swipe, such as after a Charge) and make sure their AM is up before that hit. Even then, they should be able to eat a stack or two early on without it doing too much damage, but if you aren't swapping and they're at like 10+ stacks, TP is going to hurt if you eat it without any mitigation.

    I think we need more information to help, honestly. There are too many "How in the hell...?!" factors at work here that quite frankly should not be possible.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-09-06 at 06:07 PM.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by PickmansMuse View Post
    How many raid wipes is too many before something gets changed?

    Let's say that a regular group does the same 10 man for a couple of months and only downs the second boss once. What is the point at which you, as a raid leader, should make changes?

    The issue is this, we have been running ToT for several weeks and have not made it past Horridon. We are at 60 - 70 wipes. Usually due to tank not keeping threat or healer not keeping tank alive. DPS has their share of mistakes as well but a DPS getting whacked isn't a show stopper usually. I guess I feel like by the 20th wipe you should have the fight down.
    For bosses like LK/Ragnaros/LS, I'd say after 200-300 wipes, maybe more if it's 10 man (because 25 is more stressful than 10) and less if it's the kind of fight where you wipe on the last phase (so longer effective wipe), starts to grind down the raid.
    For other bosses it's really hard to tell, there are variables like guild type, composition, size, gear etc.

  14. #34
    I don't understand how the tank is losing agro.

    All the tanks have a 500% threat mod and can easily pull 50k dps on horridon pre damage debuffs, which means that your dps would have to have 250k+ sustained dps in order to pull threat.

    So one of two things is happening
    1) You have an amazing dps that is just focusing horridon, because frankly even our 545 geared lock has a hard to pulling 250k single target dps with no damage debuffs on the boss
    2) Your tank is significantly under preforming and while dps isn't important, you basically have to dps as a tank now to do active mitigation. So bad tank dps=bad tank mitigation. Even warriors and dks, yes heart strike is just for damage, but it leads to RP which leads to more UH/Frost runes for DS, and yes devastate just does damage but it leads to more shield slams which give more rage for more AM.
    Last edited by felcommander; 2013-09-06 at 06:03 PM. Reason: Rage not raid lolz

  15. #35
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickmansMuse View Post
    The tank assigned to Horridon takes a crap load of damage from what I've witnessed.
    Then that tank is not controlling the number of stacks he is receiving during the fight or is "standing in things" or is not having a debuff taken off in a timely manner.

    I am the Horridon tank for my group and tank through two doors easily without dropping my stacks.

    You need to find out EXACTLY what is causing the excessive tank damage.

    Also tanking away from the door is just covering for players who are not attentive enough to move to the boss tank when targeted for a charge. A viable strategy but one designed around babysitting inattentive players.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by PickmansMuse View Post
    The tank assigned to Horridon takes a crap load of damage from what I've witnessed.
    Then they're not doing their job right. I only take a "crap load" of damage when I (deliberately) get 20+ stacks of Triple Puncture, and even then the damage is a joke. Of course, if you're still on Horridon at this point in the patch, your tank (regardless of the class) is likely to be much worse geared than me (even though I'm still far from even Normal BIS gear), unless they've geared up in other raids before joining you. But even if that's the case, they can (assuming a paladin, since it doesn't sound like you're swapping) still clear their stacks each door rather than after 2-3 doors, and then not get high stacks of Triple Puncture.

    TL;DR: If your tank is taking a lot of damage, they're either vastly undergeared, underperforming, or both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehman View Post
    We had 250 wipes on Lei Shen heroic before he dropped.

    The amount of pulls doesn't matter, the progress does. Do you see significant (Or even marginal) improvements regularly? Keep at it. If you don't? Change the tactic/Person who fails/yell at the nearest toaster.
    Then again, I have a friend who barely raids, and would much rather just spend his raid times with a group of friends, having a laugh. Which, of course, is sometimes made harder by wiping excessively, but mostly it's down to the people you're playing with to make the time fun. Ask yourself which one you'd rather be.
    This, 500000x over.

    60-70 wipes may be a bit much for Horridon, though. I know he is a bit of a ball-buster for sub-par raiders, but it sounds like your entire group (especially your main tank) could vastly improve across the board.

    If you all collectively decide to take a hard look at what is going wrong and fix it, congratulations, you've taken a great step toward being a good raiding guild. If not, and you just wait for the 20% nerf...well, you're "just like the rest of 'em."
    Last edited by Toxigen; 2013-09-06 at 06:12 PM.

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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by PickmansMuse View Post
    How many raid wipes is too many before something gets changed?

    Let's say that a regular group does the same 10 man for a couple of months and only downs the second boss once. What is the point at which you, as a raid leader, should make changes?

    The issue is this, we have been running ToT for several weeks and have not made it past Horridon. We are at 60 - 70 wipes. Usually due to tank not keeping threat or healer not keeping tank alive. DPS has their share of mistakes as well but a DPS getting whacked isn't a show stopper usually. I guess I feel like by the 20th wipe you should have the fight down.
    What is the average ilvl of your group?

    We went into ToT with about 508 average ilvl (very low for a heroic raiding guild). We 1-shot normal Horridon the first week, then heroic Horridon took us 120 pulls in week 2.

    Is it because we are bad? No, but that's not what I thought at the time.

  19. #39
    My guild got up to like 110 wipes on Heroic Horridon before we killed it. We were in a tranition phase with a lot of undergeared recruits though, and it's hard to drum up interest in a 1/13H guild to get good players that are actually well geared. We stuck it out though, got the recruits some gear, and killed it. This was a while ago.

    In our case it was a gear problem, as the last 60 wipes were usually due to enrage. Tanks having threat issues is a L2P issue, and won't be fixed with gear. Same thing if healers are consistantly letting tanks die, but in your case I feel like the tanks weren't popping CDs at the correct time. Basically, get new tanks.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by felcommander View Post
    I don't understand how the tank is losing agro.

    All the tanks have a 500% threat mod and can easily pull 50k dps on horridon pre damage debuffs, which means that your dps would have to have 250k+ sustained dps in order to pull threat.

    So one of two things is happening
    1) You have an amazing dps that is just focusing horridon, because frankly even our 545 geared lock has a hard to pulling 250k single target dps with no damage debuffs on the boss
    2) Your tank is significantly under preforming and while dps isn't important, you basically have to dps as a tank now to do active mitigation. So bad tank dps=bad tank mitigation. Even warriors and dks, yes heart strike is just for damage, but it leads to RP which leads to more UH/Frost runes for DS, and yes devastate just does damage but it leads to more shield slams which give more rage for more AM.
    Not providing anything useful to this thread, but yeah, I'm having a hard time understanding how a tank can lose threat nowaday. It's been pretty easy to keep threat as a tank since pretty much WoTLK, yet they kept buffing tank threat generation since then. Now only doing your rotation half decently makes you hold it no problem. If tank is really having trouble keeping aggro, I would suggest changing him, or put him as a offtank when possible.

    I would surely try to look for a solution very quickly, my guild, which I don't raid with, have been wiping for several weeks on Horridon (about 60 wipes too) until they just decided to stop raiding as a whole, so yeah, horridon have been a guild killer for them... I went with them once a few weeks before they stopped and we got it down in 2 attempts. Other than my dps being twice as much as the second on the meter, I realised that they were lacking raid awareness and communication.

    After the first wipe, I decided to take the lead and basicly had to call everything, from what to kill on what order, and where to stand at every moment, I had to pickup for everyone that was standing at wrong spot, had to call out for people to stand out of frozen orbs, etc.. That attempt then went very well and problems like tank dieing and dps not killing adds quick enough, making them run all around with tank being overwhelmed with stuff to taunt, was basicly gone. This was their first and last kill of Horridon.

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