As far as how many wipes is excessive, it depends, but it's critical as the raid leader to know the strengths and weaknesses of the members and make decisions accordingly. Most bosses have multiple strategies, and some strats are easier for certain raids to execute than others, while other groups will find different strats easier. But after 5-10 wipes, you should probably give your raid a break so that you can evaluate everything that's going on and figure out what, if anything, you can do to increase your odds of success.
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I think I am going to try to do the raid through Openraid a few times just to see how other groups handle the boss.
Do you have any logs or can you explain play by play how you are doing the fight and / or dps / hps. Something is very very wrong if you are wiping that much on horridon.
Do you keep logs? Do you know what the strengths and weaknesses of your raid team are? Do you know what causes your wipes? I mean, 60-70 wipes is where my raid team was on Lei Shen, and by that point I, and the rest of my raid, was frustrated, but determined to get him down. But on Horridon? True, Horridon isn't in the right spot, difficulty-wise, but if you can't identify the cause of your wipes, and then find the solution to them, you can spend hundreds of attempts on him and not get him down (before nerfs, of course).
At this point in the patch, any raider can tell you exactly how to kill him, possibly even giving multiple strats, but it's up to your raid to actually execute the fight properly.
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I haven't kept logs up to now but I think Im going t o start. It would certainly help this discussion.
Well, it's a legit strategy, but it puts more pressure on some of your healers (the ones with the raid). Unless the Horridon tank is asleep (well, maybe not even then, I know I can tank Horridon in my sleep), they don't take any damage, which will make the healer over with him bored.
First question that springs to mind is are you solo tanking Horridon with a Paladin? If you are, then maybe he's not up to it and you should dual tank, switching after each door (aka how the fight would go if you couldn't bubble Triple Puncture).
Second, don't tank Horridon on the opposite side. He should be tanked parallel to the door, with his side facing the raid. When someone is targeted for Charge, in theory they should run behind the Horridon tank to keep him in that general area, but let's face it that NEVER happens.
Tell your DPS flat out that Horridon doesn't get touched while there are adds up. Yell if you have to, but restate that fact. If a single add is alive (a bit extreme but it's the principle) then you call out anyone who is DPSing Horridon and tell them to not tunnel the boss. There's zero excuse for this.
If your tank is getting oneshot by Double Swipe... honestly I have no idea how this is happening. You should be able to eat a Double Swipe without any cooldown up, at least once in a while. What is your tank's iLevel? If you have someone in 463 blues or like a Warrior in DPS gear tanking him (or a Monk/Druid in +Int gear), then I could maybe see them getting crushed, but anything else is honestly too ridiculous to believe, no offense. There's no possible way a tank can be oneshot by Double Swipe if they're geared anywhere close to where they should be for ToT normal, assuming of course they are getting healed.
EDIT: If your tank is taking a "crapload" of damage from Horridon, then either they are undergeared or they are just sitting there and not using their mitigation. Instruct them to watch the timer on Triple Puncture (word of caution: he'll delay it if he does a Double Swipe, such as after a Charge) and make sure their AM is up before that hit. Even then, they should be able to eat a stack or two early on without it doing too much damage, but if you aren't swapping and they're at like 10+ stacks, TP is going to hurt if you eat it without any mitigation.
I think we need more information to help, honestly. There are too many "How in the hell...?!" factors at work here that quite frankly should not be possible.
Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-09-06 at 06:07 PM.
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For other bosses it's really hard to tell, there are variables like guild type, composition, size, gear etc.
Last edited by Vargur; 2013-09-06 at 06:05 PM.
I don't understand how the tank is losing agro.
All the tanks have a 500% threat mod and can easily pull 50k dps on horridon pre damage debuffs, which means that your dps would have to have 250k+ sustained dps in order to pull threat.
So one of two things is happening
1) You have an amazing dps that is just focusing horridon, because frankly even our 545 geared lock has a hard to pulling 250k single target dps with no damage debuffs on the boss
2) Your tank is significantly under preforming and while dps isn't important, you basically have to dps as a tank now to do active mitigation. So bad tank dps=bad tank mitigation. Even warriors and dks, yes heart strike is just for damage, but it leads to RP which leads to more UH/Frost runes for DS, and yes devastate just does damage but it leads to more shield slams which give more rage for more AM.
I am the Horridon tank for my group and tank through two doors easily without dropping my stacks.
You need to find out EXACTLY what is causing the excessive tank damage.
Also tanking away from the door is just covering for players who are not attentive enough to move to the boss tank when targeted for a charge. A viable strategy but one designed around babysitting inattentive players.
There is no bad RNG only bad L2P
TL;DR: If your tank is taking a lot of damage, they're either vastly undergeared, underperforming, or both.
60-70 wipes may be a bit much for Horridon, though. I know he is a bit of a ball-buster for sub-par raiders, but it sounds like your entire group (especially your main tank) could vastly improve across the board.
If you all collectively decide to take a hard look at what is going wrong and fix it, congratulations, you've taken a great step toward being a good raiding guild. If not, and you just wait for the 20% nerf...well, you're "just like the rest of 'em."
Last edited by Toxigen; 2013-09-06 at 06:12 PM.
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We went into ToT with about 508 average ilvl (very low for a heroic raiding guild). We 1-shot normal Horridon the first week, then heroic Horridon took us 120 pulls in week 2.
Is it because we are bad? No, but that's not what I thought at the time.
My guild got up to like 110 wipes on Heroic Horridon before we killed it. We were in a tranition phase with a lot of undergeared recruits though, and it's hard to drum up interest in a 1/13H guild to get good players that are actually well geared. We stuck it out though, got the recruits some gear, and killed it. This was a while ago.
In our case it was a gear problem, as the last 60 wipes were usually due to enrage. Tanks having threat issues is a L2P issue, and won't be fixed with gear. Same thing if healers are consistantly letting tanks die, but in your case I feel like the tanks weren't popping CDs at the correct time. Basically, get new tanks.
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I would surely try to look for a solution very quickly, my guild, which I don't raid with, have been wiping for several weeks on Horridon (about 60 wipes too) until they just decided to stop raiding as a whole, so yeah, horridon have been a guild killer for them... I went with them once a few weeks before they stopped and we got it down in 2 attempts. Other than my dps being twice as much as the second on the meter, I realised that they were lacking raid awareness and communication.
After the first wipe, I decided to take the lead and basicly had to call everything, from what to kill on what order, and where to stand at every moment, I had to pickup for everyone that was standing at wrong spot, had to call out for people to stand out of frozen orbs, etc.. That attempt then went very well and problems like tank dieing and dps not killing adds quick enough, making them run all around with tank being overwhelmed with stuff to taunt, was basicly gone. This was their first and last kill of Horridon.