Excessive Raid Wipes

[PickmansMuse]

I don't understand how the tank is losing agro.

All the tanks have a 500% threat mod and can easily pull 50k dps on horridon pre damage debuffs, which means that your dps would have to have 250k+ sustained dps in order to pull threat.

So one of two things is happening
1) You have an amazing dps that is just focusing horridon, because frankly even our 545 geared lock has a hard to pulling 250k single target dps with no damage debuffs on the boss
2) Your tank is significantly under preforming and while dps isn't important, you basically have to dps as a tank now to do active mitigation. So bad tank dps=bad tank mitigation. Even warriors and dks, yes heart strike is just for damage, but it leads to RP which leads to more UH/Frost runes for DS, and yes devastate just does damage but it leads to more shield slams which give more rage for more AM.

I only know that we are getting a lot of charges and Horridon appears in our add group from time to time.

[l33t]

I can not even conceptualize how the boss tank could possibly ever lose aggro on horridon.

All of a sudden BoP from their paladin to drop stacks on tank can easily do the trick.

I only know that we are getting a lot of charges and Horridon appears in our add group from time to time.

Or, maybe, you are confusing Horridon's special roflstomping ability which he does in random raider with tank loosing aggro.

[rhandric]

I only know that we are getting a lot of charges and Horridon appears in our add group from time to time.

Charge has absolutely nothing to do with threat. If you're keeping Horridon as far from the group as possible, either the tank is miss-positioning him, or one of the 8 people on adds is getting too close to Horridon.

[PickmansMuse]

What is the average ilvl of your group?

We went into ToT with about 508 average ilvl (very low for a heroic raiding guild). We 1-shot normal Horridon the first week, then heroic Horridon took us 120 pulls in week 2.

Is it because we are bad? No, but that's not what I thought at the time.

Most of the raid is over 500 but we have a few stragglers at 490+. Noone under that. I think all dps is 505+ (I am 517)

[judgementofantonidas]

I only know that we are getting a lot of charges and Horridon appears in our add group from time to time.

if you are using the one tank out strat, how are you getting ANY charges?

[Saiyoran]

Not providing anything useful to this thread, but yeah, I'm having a hard time understanding how a tank can lose threat nowaday. It's been pretty easy to keep threat as a tank since pretty much WoTLK, yet they kept buffing tank threat generation since then. Now only doing your rotation half decently makes you hold it no problem. If tank is really having trouble keeping aggro, I would suggest changing him, or put him as a offtank when possible.

I would surely try to look for a solution very quickly, my guild, which I don't raid with, have been wiping for several weeks on Horridon (about 60 wipes too) until they just decided to stop raiding as a whole, so yeah, horridon have been a guild killer for them... I went with them once a few weeks before they stopped and we got it down in 2 attempts. Other than my dps being twice as much as the second on the meter, I realised that they were lacking raid awareness and communication.

After the first wipe, I decided to take the lead and basicly had to call everything, from what to kill on what order, and where to stand at every moment, I had to pickup for everyone that was standing at wrong spot, had to call out for people to stand out of frozen orbs, etc.. That attempt then went very well and problems like tank dieing and dps not killing adds quick enough, making them run all around with tank being overwhelmed with stuff to taunt, was basicly gone. This was their first and last kill of Horridon.

As a warrior tank that didn't realize I should be using Shield Block frequently until Heroic Ji-Kun (having played since Vanilla...), I can confirm that tanking this tier doesn't require a lot. Even with my terrible play-style, I cleared 12/12 normal without any aggro issues (only person who can pull off of me is our crit-build BrM tank), and am now 10/13H without any issues (especially since i started playing how I'm supposed to...).

I can also say that 60 wipes can either be a ton or not many at all. Are the wipes farther and farther into the fight? Are they all on door 1? Is the same mechanic killing you over and over? For normal Horridon, if you're not getting to a new door every 5 or 6 pulls (minus stupid mistakes like someone prepulling or grabbing aggro on the pull), you need to change your strategy. For a boss like Heroic Animus, my guild is nearing 200 wipes, but each wipe things go a little smoother so it's not really an issue since we don't mind the wipes as they're mostly due to silly mistakes and not major strategy flaws.

For you guys, it looks like strategy might be an issue (no need to tank the boss so far away, allow both healers to help heal the whole raid, your tank can pop some cds on door 3 to lessen the load on healers).

[Nobleshield]

I only know that we are getting a lot of charges and Horridon appears in our add group from time to time.

That happens if he charges and the person he charged is derping around in the adds and doesn't realize they were charged. He does a Double Swipe immediately after a charge, so if people besides the tank are dying after the charge it's probably because they are in front of/behind him and eating a Double Swipe. You need to restate that if you are not at his SIDE (pretend he's a dragon with a front cleave and a tail swipe) they're doing it wrong.

If you can guesstimate, how long is it taking you between gates? He shouldn't be getting "a lot" of charges each gate, I think I usually count 2, maybe 3 most before the Dinomancer is dead, although this week for whatever reason we had people ignoring the orb for a few seconds.

[Saiyoran]

I only know that we are getting a lot of charges and Horridon appears in our add group from time to time.

Whoever is targeted by charge should get out of the group ASAP. That is HUGE as far as not losing raid damage and not having slower people dying to swipes. Blink, Lock portal, Speed of light, rocket belt, life grip, anything and everything movement-related should be used for this since nothing on this fight requires quick movement aside from this movement.

[felcommander]

I only know that we are getting a lot of charges and Horridon appears in our add group from time to time.

Your aware that horridon will charge a random raid member from time to time and then cast double swipe correct?

If not then that is probably your whole issue. The player that gets targeted with charge needs to run to horridon so when he charges all he does is turn and cast double swipe instead of charging halfway across the room.

Also on another note, make sure your tank isn't standing in double swipe when it goes off, its not hard to move out of.

[PickmansMuse]

Wipes are consistently door 4 or God King now. Have been for the last few weeks.

[Nobleshield]

Most of the raid is over 500 but we have a few stragglers at 490+. Noone under that. I think all dps is 505+ (I am 517)

Then you need to post logs or something if you have them, because there is no possible way that a 500+ ilevel tank is getting oneshot from Double Swipe unless maybe if they're low on health or using /sit to scumbag vengeance, which is highly unlikely.

[PickmansMuse]

Your aware that horridon will charge a random raid member from time to time and then cast double swipe correct?

If not then that is probably your whole issue. The player that gets targeted with charge needs to run to horridon so when he charges all he does is turn and cast double swipe instead of charging halfway across the room.

Also on another note, make sure your tank isn't standing in double swipe when it goes off, its not hard to move out of.

Yeah, I'm aware of that. Getting Horridon out of the adds groups has been trouble sometimes though.

[judgementofantonidas]

All of a sudden BoP from their paladin to drop stacks on tank can easily do the trick.

then again that falls on the tank not knowing how to play his class. that is not a tank "losing" aggro. it is a failtank not using a cancel aura macro for his hop and applying it at any time OTHER than when the boss is beating on the gate after the dinomancer is dealt with.

[Deleted]

How many raid wipes is too many before something gets changed?

Let's say that a regular group does the same 10 man for a couple of months and only downs the second boss once. What is the point at which you, as a raid leader, should make changes?

Op, now, you know what a hardcore gamer is. He is always ruled by the " Wipe mentally ", again and again. I wanted to throw the mantra of "25 mans is about 10 who carry a lot of baddies" but, no need for it in fact.

10 mans guilds politic is the biggest fail of WoW.

[Nobleshield]

Wipes are consistently door 4 or God King now. Have been for the last few weeks.

Could be your add tank isn't getting the bears; they hit hard, or people are standing in Lightning Totems. War God needs to be focused ASAP and killed, he gets stronger every few seconds and I believe does a raidwide AOE that gets progressively stronger too. Kepe in mind Horridon will enrage after War God is dead, and hits much harder so your healers and tank need to be aware to save cooldowns for that (assuming you aren't solo tanking, that's a great time for a tank swap)

[judgementofantonidas]

Wipes are consistently door 4 or God King now. Have been for the last few weeks.

if you are to god king it is as simple as stacking the raid to horridon's flank and the charged person stepping to where the active tank is.

[Nobleshield]

then again that falls on the tank not knowing how to play his class. that is not a tank "losing" aggro. it is a failtank not using a cancel aura macro for his hop and applying it at any time OTHER than when the boss is beating on the gate after the dinomancer is dealt with.

Agree with this. If the tank is a Pally, he needs to know to A) Use a cancelaura macro (for HoP mine is included in Crusader Strike), and B) ONLY drop stacks when Horridon charges a gate, so he has enough time to bubble, cancel it and retaunt/damage Horridon to reestablish aggro. If a Pally healer is doing it, then THEY need to know not to do it except between gates.

[Belloc]

This is a hard question to answer. I wouldn't put more than 10 attempts in on a fight before changing something if it seemed like we weren't making progress. If attempts are getting noticeably better, I might stick with it for a while longer.

Wiping on normal Horridon, though? If I were the raid leader, wipe #10 would be a 5-10 minute break. I'd look over logs (on World of Logs) and see what was going wrong. If DPS were dying to melee swings, I'd note that and ask about it when the break was over. If that turned out to be an issue happening to multiple DPS, it's a tank problem and that tank would be replaced. If people were dying to lack of heals, I'd acknowledge that to our healers and try to find out what they're doing wrong. If things simply weren't dying fast enough, I'd look at what the DPS are doing and talk to them.

Either way, 10 wipes on normal Horridon without noticeable progress would probably lead to the raid being cancelled and replacements for the baddies being recruited. A lot of people like to talk about Horridon as if it's a complicated fight. It's not. You have the Horridon mechanics (double swipe, charge) to deal with, which everyone should have mastered within 5 attempts. You have nearly identical ground based AOEs on every door, which everyone should've mastered before coming to the raid, since it's the most common mechanic in the history of raiding. You have dispels on door one, interrupts and cleanses on door two, cleanses on door 3, and decurses on door 4. Finally, you have a short AOE healing phase. That's the fight.

If it takes more than 10-20 attempts for a raid group to get that down, then they are not cut out for normal mode raiding. They need to either focus on LFR (or Flex, in 5.4) or they need to restructure the raid. This applies even to casual guilds (I say this because I was in a casual guild in DS and we still managed to full clear heroic mode by the 15% debuff. One-day-a-week raiding is casual). If you want to clear content, you have to remove the obstacles in your raid group. If you aren't willing to do that, you're going to continue wiping until people quit. Either way, you have to make a sacrifice.

Alternatively, you could somehow encourage your players to actually read up on their class and train themselves to be good. Most players in guilds like those, however, are not even remotely willing to do that. So, once again, people would have to be replaced or everyone would have to settle for a shitty raid.

[Invictus9001]

How many raid wipes is too many before something gets changed?

Everyone's threshold is different. If I were in such a group, but making some measure of positive progress between each wipe, I could handle 10, 20 wipes in one evening. If, however, there's no positive progress and/or the same mistakes are being committed by the same people over and over, I'd be vocal enough to point things out that people are doing wrong, or just bow out and say, "Good luck - I am out of here."

[Belloc]

Agree with this. If the tank is a Pally, he needs to know to A) Use a cancelaura macro (for HoP mine is included in Crusader Strike), and B) ONLY drop stacks when Horridon charges a gate, so he has enough time to bubble, cancel it and retaunt/damage Horridon to reestablish aggro. If a Pally healer is doing it, then THEY need to know not to do it except between gates.

You've got the order wrong. You taunt, bubble, bubble cancel. Bam, you're done. If you taunt after you bubble, then the boss is going to melee someone else once or twice. ALWAYS taunt before you bubble. Taunt will force the boss to fixate on you for 3 seconds (assuming no one else has taunted recently), during which time you will be doing the bubble and cancelling your bubble. The boss will never know you were immune.