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  1. #61
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    You've got the order wrong. You taunt, bubble, bubble cancel. Bam, you're done. If you taunt after you bubble, then the boss is going to melee someone else once or twice. ALWAYS taunt before you bubble. Taunt will force the boss to fixate on you for 3 seconds (assuming no one else has taunted recently), during which time you will be doing the bubble and cancelling your bubble. The boss will never know you were immune.
    I meant when he charges the gate, you have enough time to drop the stacks while he's still on the gate and stunned or whatever, before he comes back to being active, and have enough time to retaunt him and hit him while he's stunned so he resumes aggro on the tank. If he was dropping stacks during combat then yes Taunt > Bubble/Drop.
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    You've got the order wrong. You taunt, bubble, bubble cancel. Bam, you're done. If you taunt after you bubble, then the boss is going to melee someone else once or twice. ALWAYS taunt before you bubble. Taunt will force the boss to fixate on you for 3 seconds (assuming no one else has taunted recently), during which time you will be doing the bubble and cancelling your bubble. The boss will never know you were immune.
    And if you're bubbling at a gate charge, there's not even a need to taunt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    then again that falls on the tank not knowing how to play his class. that is not a tank "losing" aggro. it is a failtank not using a cancel aura macro for his hop and applying it at any time OTHER than when the boss is beating on the gate after the dinomancer is dealt with.
    If the tank is a paladin then yea, a taunt>bubble>cancel macro should be on his bar. If the tank isn't a paladin then it's external and that could mean the person doing it is timing it wrong or just throwing it out there whenever. If he's not charging then the tank needs to be ready for it to taunt and cancel aura the moment it's cast which means communication from the person using it.

  4. #64
    While this isn't the topic of this thread, but how about you start by naming your tanks and healers. Which class are they, how many of them you use. What do they do (ok, more like how, rather then what? heal).
    For example if the tank is a dk its one thing, if its druid its second, if its monk its third etc etc etc. Also some classes have it easier with their active mit while other may need more of planning. Not to mention gear plays big role too. For example if tank may is not geared enough he might need to gear towards stamina more, he will lose of stats he actually wants. You get the rift.
    Also as for the healers, one tend to focus more on direct heals, other may be hoters and their heals come not when you need them but some time later. you might also have or not have any absorbs etc etc. Until you provide more info no one will know what the problem is.
    But to be precisely on topic, if all raiders are honest enough to tell on their fails right away, then 3 tries are enough to start seeing patterns.
    Of course to see them you need to have info on whats going on.
    For example if horidon tank is loosing agro (lets think hes undergeared) he should have omen and know that here I was on first door, tanking like a boss. Since it was the start of combat I had that lock/mage/enh shaman almost caught up on my threat. First doors adds appear but that lock was still on my heels. So you start looking into what was lock doing. Was he actively single target nuking the boss or was he just keeping his one or two dots on boss. If its the later then your tank needs to do some research about his rotations (maybe hes missing something like not using mangle as bear).
    The very same thing with healers, lets say boss tank died. You ask what was the problem. he says no heals. You check the logs and see he received no heals for lets say 10 seconds. You can clearly ask the question, wtf were healers doing.
    So all in all, more info please.

  5. #65
    Epic! schwank05's Avatar
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    Our guild hit the Horridon wall early on and wiped about 20 times on 2 different nights, then our Raid fell apart and we haven't raided since. This was all around April-May. There shouldn't be a boss like that in the first 4-5 IMO. Our issue was Healers and one shit DPS, basically we had a group of 2 good tanks 3 good dps and 1 good healer and had to deal with carrying the rest of the raid.

  6. #66
    Scarab Lord Anjerith's Avatar
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    Unless the tank is afk or not actually spec'd tank or not in a tank stance- the issue is not your tanks, ever. Sorry. No need to speculate on how the tank plays or doesn't since they gave tanks essentially guaranteed threat as long as they are logged in.
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

  7. #67
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    Our guild hit the Horridon wall early on and wiped about 20 times on 2 different nights, then our Raid fell apart and we haven't raided since. This was all around April-May. There shouldn't be a boss like that in the first 4-5 IMO. Our issue was Healers and one shit DPS, basically we had a group of 2 good tanks 3 good dps and 1 good healer and had to deal with carrying the rest of the raid.
    And unfortunately you can't do that anymore.

    Really it sounds like the OP is in a guild that just can't deal with the "new" style of Normal raids. It sucks, but it's how things are. Hopefully Flex will fix things for guilds like his.
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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    And unfortunately you can't do that anymore.
    Really it sounds like the OP is in a guild that just can't deal with the "new" style of Normal raids. It sucks, but it's how things are. Hopefully Flex will fix things for guilds like his.
    Too bad Flex has no actual real raid drops. With that new personal drop system it is near impossible to get even 1/2 of your items, because it always drops something you already have, or gold. I hope Blizzard at some point will change that abomination to real drops for flex.

  9. #69
    Grunt PickmansMuse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andaja View Post
    While this isn't the topic of this thread, but how about you start by naming your tanks and healers. Which class are they, how many of them you use. What do they do (ok, more like how, rather then what? heal).
    For example if the tank is a dk its one thing, if its druid its second, if its monk its third etc etc etc. Also some classes have it easier with their active mit while other may need more of planning. Not to mention gear plays big role too. For example if tank may is not geared enough he might need to gear towards stamina more, he will lose of stats he actually wants. You get the rift.
    Also as for the healers, one tend to focus more on direct heals, other may be hoters and their heals come not when you need them but some time later. you might also have or not have any absorbs etc etc. Until you provide more info no one will know what the problem is.
    But to be precisely on topic, if all raiders are honest enough to tell on their fails right away, then 3 tries are enough to start seeing patterns.
    Of course to see them you need to have info on whats going on.
    For example if horidon tank is loosing agro (lets think hes undergeared) he should have omen and know that here I was on first door, tanking like a boss. Since it was the start of combat I had that lock/mage/enh shaman almost caught up on my threat. First doors adds appear but that lock was still on my heels. So you start looking into what was lock doing. Was he actively single target nuking the boss or was he just keeping his one or two dots on boss. If its the later then your tank needs to do some research about his rotations (maybe hes missing something like not using mangle as bear).
    The very same thing with healers, lets say boss tank died. You ask what was the problem. he says no heals. You check the logs and see he received no heals for lets say 10 seconds. You can clearly ask the question, wtf were healers doing.
    So all in all, more info please.
    It is DK for Horridon. Druid for adds

  10. #70
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    If a Pally healer is doing it, then THEY need to know not to do it except between gates.
    AND communicate with their tank so that he immediately cancelaura's it off.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by PickmansMuse View Post
    How many raid wipes is too many before something gets changed?

    Let's say that a regular group does the same 10 man for a couple of months and only downs the second boss once. What is the point at which you, as a raid leader, should make changes?

    The issue is this, we have been running ToT for several weeks and have not made it past Horridon. We are at 60 - 70 wipes. Usually due to tank not keeping threat or healer not keeping tank alive. DPS has their share of mistakes as well but a DPS getting whacked isn't a show stopper usually. I guess I feel like by the 20th wipe you should have the fight down.
    I would've started trying to replace the tank immediately (if it wasn't brand new content, but this isn't). If he wants to keep raiding, he gets better or gets benched. Friend or not, he's the reason for hours upon hours of wasted time for 9+ other people. You're only on the 2nd boss and that shouldn't be acceptable.
    What of the other players who would be happy to perform that roll and excel at it, but can't because they can't find a group to join? He's wasting their time too.

  12. #72
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickmansMuse View Post
    It is DK for Horridon. Druid for adds
    Not using Death Strike enough, perhaps? I don't know much about DK's Active Mitigation but I think that more than other tanks (except Monks) a DK will drop like a stone if they aren't using their abilities enough.

    Is he solo tanking Horridon or are they switching at each gate?
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  13. #73
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    You've got the order wrong. You taunt, bubble, bubble cancel. Bam, you're done. If you taunt after you bubble, then the boss is going to melee someone else once or twice. ALWAYS taunt before you bubble. Taunt will force the boss to fixate on you for 3 seconds (assuming no one else has taunted recently), during which time you will be doing the bubble and cancelling your bubble. The boss will never know you were immune.

    taunt is never needed on horridon unless you are tank swapping.

    if you bubble/cancelaura while he is fixated on the gate you never lose an ounce of threat.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by PickmansMuse View Post
    It is DK for Horridon. Druid for adds
    So pally healer then, with the DK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  15. #75
    Grunt PickmansMuse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anjerith View Post
    Unless the tank is afk or not actually spec'd tank or not in a tank stance- the issue is not your tanks, ever. Sorry. No need to speculate on how the tank plays or doesn't since they gave tanks essentially guaranteed threat as long as they are logged in.
    I don't agree with this. Even if you are, as a tank, spec'd right you can still blow the raid by playing incorrectly. Even a i540 tank just standing there is going to die in a hurry if not played. Tanks don't get an automatic pass just because they are tanks. In this issue the tank and tank healer die first the vast majority of the time. If the tank ws playing well and the healer was healing well I think we would run out of DPS before tanks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    So pally healer then, with the DK?
    We have had both a pally and a preist. Neither fair any better than the other.

  16. #76
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickmansMuse View Post
    We have had both a pally and a preist. Neither fair any better than the other.
    I think what he means is if the Pally is using Hand of Protection on the DK to clear stacks of Triple Puncture?

    I would almost bet the DK isn't using Death Strike enough to build up the absorb which as I understand is the DK's primary active mitigation (you'll pardon my ignorance, my DK was abandoned at 90 and was DPS, although I tanked a normal Jade Serpent run at 90 just to see it): Death Strike to build up a shield, Death Strike after the hit (Triple Puncture in this case) to heal back up.
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  17. #77
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    And if you're bubbling at a gate charge, there's not even a need to taunt.
    oops. missed your post and repeated it.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  18. #78
    Took us ~200 times to get H-DA, but got to 14% on H-Lei Shen after 25 wipes, it all depends on what your group is doing wrong and how to fix it.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I think what he means is if the Pally is using Hand of Protection on the DK to clear stacks of Triple Puncture?
    Exactly. And if they're not, well then it's obvious (unless the tanks are actually switching from door to door and you're neglecting to state that)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    oops. missed your post and repeated it.
    Ah well, it happens

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  20. #80
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    Exactly. And if they're not, well then it's obvious (unless the tanks are actually switching from door to door and you're neglecting to state that.
    To summarize: If your Pally is NOT using Hand of Protection on the DK to clear stacks, then you should be switching tanks at each door. If door #4 is consistently the issue then I'm wondering if the reason why is your pally is clearing his stacks twice (Clemency?) and then not being able to clear it later on so when door #4 and War God come, he's at around 15 or so TP stacks and getting destroyed. In that case either swap every 2x doors or switch for War God (e.g. druid takes Horridon, DK takes War God) and switch back when War God is dead if Triple Puncture has dropped.
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