Possible solution for Demon Hunter lovers.

[Traveler Voltin]

Dosen't that just prove why Demon Hunters can't be a class. In order to be a playable class don't DH have to be the same abilities?

if you all take powers from the same type of demon. you all have the same powers. so it could be a class.

[Thimagryn]

Dosen't that just prove why Demon Hunters can't be a class. In order to be a playable class don't DH have to be the same abilities?

Both DK and Monk have spells different from Warcraft 3. Army of the Dead and Dizzying Haze are variations of their Warcraft 3 spells, Reanimate Dead and Drunken Haze. I wouldn't argue that they are different/same from the dudes in Warcraft 3 just because of spell names, it's all a matter of perspective.

[Talen]

And players get over it.

So what? Why drive players away from the class? Yes...some players get over it....but others don't. Blizzard changed the class for the betetr in MoP and it still lost players because players didn't like change.

Adding the DH class will negatively impact the Warlock and Rogue classes simply because of the overlap. You can't seriously expect to simply handwave that away with "They'll get over it".

That you **can** even suggest that shows why you are willing to retcon the DH identity we have, and why the overlap doesn't matter.

Unfortunately, it DOES matter. The Blizzard if noone else. We know what the reaction will be because we've seen it before. Blizzard knows what the reaction will be because they have seen it before.

Sometimes, however, the change is necessary. Which is why Mortal Strike and Bloodlust got parcelled out. There was a gameplay need. Other times...it isn't. Which is why the Rogue and Hunter revamps that have been discussed aren't going to be at the same level as the overhaul the Warlock got.

Change is necessary. And yes, players will get upset. But adding in DHs will make them upset for no good reason. There is no benefit to the game, no gameplay need to upset such players.

Why do so unnecessarily?

Demon Hunter Player Characters would not have stealth. If they did, then it would conflict with Rogue/Feral Druid gameplay. Stealth isn't a core part of Demon Hunter PC identity either, it's not what Players would look for in a Demon Hunter class.

They could get it. Hunter, Rogues and Druids have stealth so it could work especially as there is an ingame precedent. That gives it a boost over other abilities, such as having Paladins bend light. And it has the advantage that the more stealth is in the game, the easier it is to justify mechanics that use stealth.

It just isn't likely.

EJL

[Ginantonicus]

if you all take powers from the same type of demon. you all have the same powers. so it could be a class.

[/QUOTE]"...possibly derived from the type of demon that they originally partially absorbed."[/QUOTE]

Except the way that is worded says its a theory and not a fact.

[Talen]

But they can't do that with Demon Hunters? They can't take the general outline, the known mechanics, and then develop a host of new abilities and even new specs? Why?

Because to change the foundations of the class to something new, you'd need to get rid of the old foundations. Can you change the class concept of "a being empowered by demons" into something else and still have him use the Warlock concept of "being empowered by demons"? no...you can't. Yet that is part of the canon lore the class. DHs, like warlocks, make a pact with darkness in order to empower themselves using demon energies and so use the power of the legion against itself.

Except that wasn't the point of the response. The point of the response was to counter the notion that DHs also don't "Make deals with devils and recklessly wield dark forces, for their own empowerment". We have several examples of Demon Hunters doing exactly that, including the first demon hunter himself.


Just like their Warlock counterparts.

Demon Hunters are dark, shadowy warriors who are shunned by the greater Night Elf society. They made a pact, long ago, to fight against the forces of chaos using its own terrible powers against it. These mysterious warriors ritually blind themselves so that they develop 'spectral sight' that enables them to see demons and undead with greater clarity. They wield demonically charged warblades in battle and even call upon demonic energies to augment their formidable combat skills. Although they are counted as some of the mightiest warriors within the Night Elves' society, the Demon Hunters are always maligned and misunderstood for making their selfless pact with darkness.


I've bolded the relevant sections.


DHs are those who made a pact with the devil long ago so they empower themselves with dark forces

That's the canon description.
Sound familiar?

None of this is effectively 'Retcon' since methods of the original generation of Demon Hunters were never explained. We know they have tattooes. We know they have 'Demonic' abilities. For all we know, they all could have been using Runemaster-like methods to channel Fel powers. None of what I have explained above conflicts with what we know of Demon Hunters. The lore is left absolutely open to interpretation.

We also know they amde pacts with the forecs of darkenss and demons in order to gain their powers.


Your arcane tattoos idea retcons that.

EJL

[Teriz]

It's no more picky than differing Death Knights from Warlocks having Death Coil in name and spell icon.

Except a fear that self heals the warlock is different than a damage spell that heals undead minions.

A spell that burns enemies around the DH is just like a spell that burns enemies around the Warlock.

From a lore standpoint it is a defining ability. And it can be worked around by giving new gameplay mechanics, such as using Metamorphosis as it exists in Heroes of the Storm. The gameplay of that ability would fit in WoW's gameplay much more for a melee-centric fighter such as the Demon Hunter. Lore-wise, it retains obvious similarity to Warlocks, but it would be differentiated by Warlocks only having the ability to take that form in one spec, while Demon Hunters have it for all specs.

No, from a marketing, design, gameplay, and lore standpoint its a defining ability. Its the most iconic DH ability because when WC3 came out, it was novel and interesting. It made the DH unique among melee heroes, and added an aura of coolness surrounding the class. The instant the ability was given to Warlocks, the more sensible among us knew that a DH class had no chance of ever occurring in the game.

Tyrande is a Priestess of the Moon, and if you are to assert all those who use Starfall are Druids, then you are are labeling Tyrande as a Druid. Priestess of the Moon may not be a playable class, but it is referred to autonomously by their own titles.

Why are you trying to make this more complex than it actually is? Blizzard took some of the themes from Tyrande and applied it to the Druid class in WoW. Those themes eventually formed the Balance tree.

No contradiction at all. Zeliek is a Death Knight able to use Holy magic, by all means you are asserting that because he is able to use Holy magic that the entire theme of Death Knights is now Holy magic. Logical fallacy.

LoL! What? According to this Zeliek is a Paladin. Which makes sense, because he only has holy abilities.

I find it pretty hilarious that you can't accept the fact that Demon Hunters enslave demons. You're even going so far as to pretend that Illidari aren't really Demon Hunters. Your argument is really getting pathetic.

[Traveler Voltin]

"...possibly derived from the type of demon that they originally partially absorbed."[/QUOTE]

Except the way that is worded says its a theory and not a fact.[/QUOTE]

well it also shows that a demon type could give spec type powers.

[Teriz]

You just said "Demon Hunters don't have pets. But these Demon Hunters have pets". That is a a contradiction.

I know. What's even sadder is that he doesn't realize how big a contradiction his post actually is.

[Traveler Voltin]

I know. What's even sadder is that he doesn't realize how big a contradiction his post actually is.

since you love using illidan as an example. illidan didnt use demon pets.

[Teriz]

since you love using illidan as an example. illidan didnt use demon pets.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=41917
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=41117

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=22917#abilities

You can thank Blizzard.

[Thimagryn]

So what? Why drive players away from the class? Yes...some players get over it....but others don't. Blizzard changed the class for the betetr in MoP and it still lost players because players didn't like change.

You brought up Mists of Pandaria, arguably the most controversial expansion released to date. There are players who can't get over the addition of Pandas and the whole idea of centering an expansion on Asian cultural themes. They are still vocal today, and may never get over it.

In retrospect, do you think Mists of Pandaria was a bad design decision, and that it should not be made? Do you believe the Monk class should be omitted because it touched on 'unpopular' themes?

Classes need to be driven by design, and that includes factors such as popularity and themes, yet they can not be marred by something as trivial as 'players will be upset'. To this day, I'm still upset that druids are playable by anything that isn't a Male Night Elf, as it was strictly defined as a part of the Night Elf culture. Despite what I feel the lore should be, I still play my class how I want (All my druids are Male Night Elves) and live with how other people decide to play theirs. Just the same, I don't expect anyone to feel bad over the fact I also play a Worgen Death Knight wearing Stormwind Guard armor.

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I know. What's even sadder is that he doesn't realize how big a contradiction his post actually is.

Because it's not big?

Druids of the Flame are Druids. I even have a staff that turns me into a firecat. This doesn't make all Druids fire-weidling servants of Ragnaros, does it?

[Traveler Voltin]

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=41917
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=41117

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=22917#abilities

You can thank Blizzard.

shadowfiend is a priest spell.
wtf is a shadow demon?

stupid pages arent loading right.
anyway illidan became a demon. a demon that summons other demons doesnt really help your side because they do it all the time.

[Thimagryn]

We also know they amde pacts with the forecs of darkenss and demons in order to gain their powers.


Your arcane tattoos idea retcons that.

EJL

Bear with my example for a moment.

Demon Hunters made a pact that bound Demonic Energy/Demons to their souls. This energy is kept contained using Arcane Runes inscribed on their bodies, through which they channel this power.

This would effectively be an addition to lore, just as Priests using Shadow Magic. They still went through the pact, they still gained demonic power, but their methods of channelling, containing and controlling that energy would be explained through Arcane Runes. Thematically, they are like Runemasters who tap into fel magic that is already contained in their bodies/souls.

In the case of Illidan, his power is directly linked to the Black Tattooes that were burnt onto his body by Sargeras. As for the other Night Elf Demon Hunters, we don't know how they got their tattooes or what methods they used to perform their rituals. By all means they could be Arcane tattooes.

[Teriz]

Because it's not big?

Druids of the Flame are Druids. I even have a staff that turns me into a firecat. This doesn't make all Druids fire-weidling servants of Ragnaros, does it?

No, but it means that Druids of the Flame are also Druids, not some different class because they have different lore and motivations than the base Druid class.

If we go along with the notion that Demon Hunters are simply a specialized form or varient of Warlock, then the same applies to them;

Demon Hunters are also Warlocks, not some different class because they have different lore and motivations than the base Warlock class.

[Thimagryn]

I find it pretty hilarious that you can't accept the fact that Demon Hunters enslave demons. You're even going so far as to pretend that Illidari aren't really Demon Hunters. Your argument is really getting pathetic.

I never asserted that the Illidari aren't Demon Hunters, only that they are a specific faction that do not represent the Demon Hunter class as described in Warcraft 3.

Teron Gorefiend and Thane Kor'Thazz were Death Knights who used Fire spells. It doesn't enforce any Fire themes onto the Death Knight class, whatsoever.

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No, but it means that Druids of the Flame are also Druids, not some different class because they have different lore and motivations than the base Druid class.

Yet you are the one asserting that because the Illidari Demon Hunters summon demons that all Demon Hunters would summon demons. This isn't the case, since the methods used by a different faction do not reflect the motivations or creeds by those of a Player Class.

If we go along with the notion that Demon Hunters are simply a specialized form or varient of Warlock, then the same applies to them. Demon Hunters are also Warlocks, not some different class because they have different lore and motivations than the base Warlock class.

But they aren't a specialized form or varient of Warlock, otherwise we would have indominable proof that Demon Hunters are simply a Warlock spec. There is absolutely no proof to this from a lore standpoint. All similarities between the two classes have been based on observation alone, not by lore or in-game reference.

[Alpharius]

No, but it means that Druids of the Flame are also Druids, not some different class because they have different lore and motivations than the base Druid class.

If we go along with the notion that Demon Hunters are simply a specialized form or varient of Warlock, then the same applies to them. Demon Hunters are also Warlocks, not some different class because they have different lore and motivations than the base Druid class.

Druid = Shapeshifter
Druid of the flame = burning shapeshifter
warlock = enslaves demons
demon hunter = made a pact to hunt demons

[Teriz]

Druid = Shapeshifter
Druid of the flame = burning shapeshifter
warlock = enslaves demons
demon hunter = made a pact to hunt demons

Demon Hunters also enslave demons. Demon Hunters also actively seek out demons to empower themselves. Demon Hunters also actively use demonic magic.

So its more like this;

Warlock=User of demonic magic.
Demon Hunter= User demonic magic.

Everything else is minor details.

[Alpharius]

Warlock=User of demonic magic.
Demon Hunter= User demonic magic.

Paladin=User of the holy light
Priest=User of the holy light

Everything else is minor details.

[Teriz]

But they aren't a specialized form or varient of Warlock, otherwise we would have indominable proof that Demon Hunters are simply a Warlock spec. There is absolutely no proof to this from a lore standpoint. All similarities between the two classes have been based on observation alone, not by lore or in-game reference.

I find this post hilarious, considering that many accept that the Warlock class could very easily have a DH spec at some point in the future.

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Paladin=User of the holy light
Priest=User of the holy light

Everything else is minor details.

Except Priests also use a great deal of Shadow Magic. 33.3% of the class' identity isn't a "minor detail".

[Thimagryn]

Except Priests also use a great deal of Shadow Magic. 33.3% of the class' identity isn't a "minor detail".

And (Non Illidari) Demon Hunters don't summon demons, nor are they frail casters. How are these minor details when it comprises 100% of the Warlock's class identity, and 0% of the Demon Hunter?