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  1. #61
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    I've seen harder ones :P But not much compares to some of the hardest bullet hell games. At least your hitbox is usually only 1 pixel...
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  2. #62
    Disruptron for me was much harder. 5-10 FPS, melee, that fight sub 30% or whenever he starts doing hitler discs ended me every time.

  3. #63
    - - - Updated - - -

    Stupid thread.

    Lei Shen heroic
    + Shitloads of mechanics
    + Other players may easily screw you
    + The timing you need on basically everything through the fight is nothing you learn in less than 50 wipes. And the soloutions is not obvious and probably making the tactic-guys work their asses off.
    + Its a multi-phase fight. People who hanst done lei shen heroic wouldnt know how hard it can be to handle static shock - diffusion chain and ball lightnings at the same time in phase 2. Only practise you can get on this is by getting through the dreaded first transition..where all platforms have to manage at once..

    Disruption:
    Flawed boss since its not equally hard for melee and ranged. But overall its a jump and push your buttons fight, its a stupid gimmick fight and some people will have it impossible whilst some will have it easier. HOWEVER there is no "hard" thing in disruption at all.

    Lei shen HC >> disruption. Any day. Lei shen is a complex enounter. Disruption is just "jump until you make it". There is no decision making or tactic tweaking

    (no ive not killed lei shen, wiping in phase 3)

  4. #64
    Mechagnome Aurokk's Avatar
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    Horde Enhancement, 500 attempts with self buffs only in first tier of mop with 509ish ilvl.

    Its a RNG fight that depends on his movements and which cannons he activates first that decide if you have a chance or wipe given the DPS restriction at that time.

    The only way I had to go around his stuns were through glyphed capacitor (3s charge time, his aoe stun was 5s) and my Primal Earth Ele stun. More than 150ms and I was dead, not even slightest hope of trying cus lazers.

    - Invisible balls were not funny.

    - Combo the above with middle turrent activated before 35% for ultimate luls.


    PS: I died at the same time as he did from enrage.

    Date of Achiv - Screen (That day I started at around dinner time 20:00, look at the clock)


    Lei shen was hard with 525 or bellow, way easier than Disruptron if your guild is above 535ish.

    Amazing Sig & Avatar by Serryn <3

  5. #65
    durr even hexos is harder than heroic lei shen.

    pick an actually hard boss next time, like pre-nerf Zor'lok.

  6. #66
    Editing in my answers to your points, because i don't feel like making a ton of quotes

    Quote Originally Posted by Stinalicious View Post

    Lei Shen heroic
    + Shitloads of mechanics // I find hard to call 13 skills "a shitload of mechanics". By that standard even LFR horridon is pretty much impossible.
    + Other players may easily screw you // Irrelevant, this thread is about PERSONAL difficulty.
    + The timing you need on basically everything through the fight is nothing you learn in less than 50 wipes. And the soloutions is not obvious and probably making the tactic-guys work their asses off. // Lei Shen is scripted to no end. I can easily make a bot that executes lei shen with absolute perfection, as there is NO need to improvise. Only bouncing bolts may prove to be an issue coding such bot.
    + Its a multi-phase fight. People who hanst done lei shen heroic wouldnt know how hard it can be to handle static shock - diffusion chain and ball lightnings at the same time in phase 2. Only practise you can get on this is by getting through the dreaded first transition..where all platforms have to manage at once.. // Everyone spread, when ball lightning is coming everyone but 3 collapse into melee. As it happens at the same time that static shock have a backup player to go outside should one of the designated rangeds get static shock. Where is the difficulty there?

    Disruption:
    Flawed boss since its not equally hard for melee and ranged. But overall its a jump and push your buttons fight, its a stupid gimmick fight and some people will have it impossible whilst some will have it easier. HOWEVER there is no "hard" thing in disruption at all. // If you find ball lightning + shock "hard" and disruptron "doesn't have anything hard" i feel you have yet to attempt disruptron, or you killed it with actual gear (as in ~50 ilvls above intended gear). If the second is true then lei shen HC is a joke, as with ¬600 ilvl you can surely faceroll it.

    Lei shen HC >> disruption. Any day. Lei shen is a complex enounter. Disruption is just "jump until you make it". There is no decision making or tactic tweaking

    (no ive not killed lei shen, wiping in phase 3)

  7. #67
    Disruptron obv. Just count number of tried on Lei Shen when you've failed to total number of tries, and do the same for Disruptron.
    Now just imagine Disruptron with 2000m hp for 25 people.

  8. #68
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stinalicious View Post
    Lei shen HC >> disruption. Any day. Lei shen is a complex enounter. Disruption is just "jump until you make it". There is no decision making or tactic tweaking
    (no ive not killed lei shen, wiping in phase 3)
    Well, I disagree with you.
    While I haven't killed Lei Shen on 25man heroic yet, but I've experienced the whole of the fight already. From my pov (I play as a tank) the fight is very easy. There are maybe two or three tricky parts, but it takes only couple of wipes to figure out the proper timing of movements and stuff. So, generally, it's the other people who are screwing up and making the fight hard.
    Lethora, 90 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
    Amberglow, 90 Assassination Rogue, Shadowsong-EU
    Raiding 25man, 10hrs/week, 13/14H.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethora View Post
    it's the other people who are screwing up and making the fight hard.
    That's exactly what most people fail to realize about leishen.

    Out of ~200 wipes total i wiped the raid about ~10 times, mostly due to falling with helm of command. The other 190 were someone else's fault. Most of the time not grabbing bouncing bolts or failing to split a static shock.

    Disruptron on the other hand? every wipe was my fault, and i had well over 100.

    Extrapolating to leishen, if i have to wipe the raid 100 times due to mistakes then we'd be quite close to 2000 (yes, that's THREE 0's) wipes.

  10. #70
    Lethora/Inthislzon.

    Disruption was killed for me in 512-515 ilvl, thats overgear im aware of that, but i overgear lei shen equally much.

    Saying Lei shen is scripted/bot-able is bullshit, in that way theres no hard PVE encounter, how was lichking different?
    In that logic i might aswell say 3v3 arena is harder than lei shen.

    Lei shen difficuly comes from execution and timing, its no "easy way" to time it except "practice make perfect".
    On the other hand disruption was a simply DPS him down to 50% ish by random doding all the shit then line up CDs (pot, jikun strength trinket and guardian 20% more strangt with wings and blow him off. (exectuion sentence alone will account for more than 1million damage. Hard part was hoping not to die last 30 sec while jumping like a retard with hands ready on divine shield.

    Anyway to answer some of your arguments . "I find hard to call 13 skills "a shitload of mechanics". By that standard even LFR horridon is pretty much impossible."
    Ok, that depends on the tuning, and we can all agree on the tuning on lei shen isnt exactly forgiving thus making every mechanic 100% perfect is needed.

    "Irrelevant, this thread is about PERSONAL difficulty."
    in that case, mecha-bruce is harder than every single HC boss since one could actually lay dead the whole fight while another player carry your weight in raids.

    Killing lei shen first time requires way more effort than killing disruption first time. BUT once you killed lei shen once and you come back with same raid group hes easier, its kinda impossible to get disruption on farm. i agree. But hes not a harder boss. Lei shen requires far more skill from the individual than disprution. Maybe your guild was good. maybe i had luck on disruption.

  11. #71
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    ITT: Comparing apples and oranges, still.

  12. #72
    The Patient Paladinne1's Avatar
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    Lei Shen is very situational; if you have a group of people can handle the transitions just fine, then Lei Shen become very simple.
    [sic]

  13. #73
    I'd say Disruptron, based on the following scenarios:

    x) Lei Shen is hard to learn, but once people know what to be aware of it becomes very deterministic - with ToT in farming mode Lei Shen is usually one-shot, while bosses like Animus or even Primordius may still cause wipes now and then due to "bad stuff happening".

    x) Disruptron on the other hand (even ignoring all the mentioned bugs and assuming overgearing) requires constant awareness - even after killing him lets say 10 times you will still struggle killing him consistently on your first attempt for the 11th time.


    Also consider the thought-experiment mentioned above:
    For a group of 10 (or 25) people, as stated Lei Shen gets easier once people know what to do up to the level where you can easily farm him.
    But imagine Disruptron scaled up to a Raidencounter with 10 (or 25) in the arena people doing him simultaniously - my guess would be that such an encounter would still be very hard while the rest of the content is already in farm mode.

  14. #74
    Also consider the thought-experiment mentioned above:
    For a group of 10 (or 25) people, as stated Lei Shen gets easier once people know what to do up to the level where you can easily farm him.
    But imagine Disruptron scaled up to a Raidencounter with 10 (or 25) in the arena people doing him simultaniously - my guess would be that such an encounter would still be very hard while the rest of the content is already in farm mode.
    YOU CANNOT compere it that way. Imagine to scale lei shen down to one player instead? Soak static shocks, handeling helm of command, killing lightning balls/diffusion chain adds, tanking him, moving from thunderstruck.

    I know this sound stupid, same goes for other way around

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Stinalicious View Post
    Lethora/Inthislzon.

    Disruption was killed for me in 512-515 ilvl, thats overgear im aware of that, but i overgear lei shen equally much.
    Lei Shen heroic is tuned for 535-540 ilvl on average. Drops from heroics are 535, 541 if thunderforged. Add ilvl 600 cloak to that and some upgrades, as that's what blizzard balances around.

    Disruptron on the other hand is balanced for ~480 ilvl, as it launched on 5.1 and was intended for solo players, the most powerful gear solo players can get comes from raid finder (483 at the time).

    If you killed disruptron with 515 ilvl then you were ~30 ilvls above. To equally outgear leishen you'd need to be ~580 ilvl. Guess you are not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stinalicious View Post
    Saying Lei shen is scripted/bot-able is bullshit, in that way theres no hard PVE encounter, how was lichking different?
    In that logic i might aswell say 3v3 arena is harder than lei shen.
    And it is. The difficulty from raiding comes from having to react to predictable abilities on a timer in a way you can research beforehand, and trusting other 9/24 people to do the same. If you are in a world first raid then you will have to find the way to react to said abilities by yourself, but usually all it takes is a couple pulls. By default any and all ranked PvP matches are more difficult, as they have some element of surprise raiding simply lacks. Blizzard cannot make a boss that noone knows what he doesAnd that comes from a mostly PvE player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stinalicious View Post
    Lei shen difficuly comes from execution and timing, its no "easy way" to time it except "practice make perfect".
    On the other hand disruption was a simply DPS him down to 50% ish by random doding all the shit then line up CDs (pot, jikun strength trinket and guardian 20% more strangt with wings and blow him off. (exectuion sentence alone will account for more than 1million damage. Hard part was hoping not to die last 30 sec while jumping like a retard with hands ready on divine shield.
    Sorry to burst your bubble but at the intended itemlevel beams ONESHOT. There is no "oh, i got hit, better pop bubble". There is "oh, i got hit, better try again". That's where the "no warlocks" comes from, as warlocks could survive one hit and had a VASTLY easier time. Disruptron's difficulty take a HUGE hit when you don't get oneshotted by everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stinalicious View Post
    Anyway to answer some of your arguments . "I find hard to call 13 skills "a shitload of mechanics". By that standard even LFR horridon is pretty much impossible."
    Ok, that depends on the tuning, and we can all agree on the tuning on lei shen isnt exactly forgiving thus making every mechanic 100% perfect is needed.
    Same as disruptron. Mess up once you are dead, unless you vastly overgear it (and can survive one beam hit)
    Quote Originally Posted by Stinalicious View Post
    "Irrelevant, this thread is about PERSONAL difficulty."
    in that case, mecha-bruce is harder than every single HC boss since one could actually lay dead the whole fight while another player carry your weight in raids.

    Killing lei shen first time requires way more effort than killing disruption first time. BUT once you killed lei shen once and you come back with same raid group hes easier, its kinda impossible to get disruption on farm. i agree. But hes not a harder boss. Lei shen requires far more skill from the individual than disprution. Maybe your guild was good. maybe i had luck on disruption.
    You overgeared disruptron. Gather a set of ~480 gear and try your hand at disruptron again. You'll be surprised.

    EDIT: Another option is wait till your raid is ~580 geared then head for heroic leishen again. You'll see the difference
    Last edited by Inthislzon; 2013-09-09 at 03:12 PM.

  16. #76
    Would you consider lei shen a harder boss if:

    every time you bring the boss health down to 30% he has a 95% chance to one shot you all
    Soudns a bit like disruption for me at least. He is not an easy boss, but no player in this game can farm him unless you badly overgear him JUST becuase said mechanic above.

    Hard is defined in different ways here and thus comparing is impossible.
    an example to show you what i mean with PVE skill is i bet any method member wouldnt be alot better than me defeating dispution if we both was thrown 500ilvl dps gear. But i sure as hell can tell he would be better on every single boss in TOT than me. Even tho i know every mechanic inside out.


    Disprution is a RNG party sub 30%. Say what ever you want but its "kill him before he kills you and hope you timed your jump the right millisecond. the poser under the OP nailed it in the very first answer i guess

  17. #77
    It's "pop defensive CDs and DPS CDs on 30% and kill him before he kills you".

    There is no RNG on that, with CDs up any class could survive 2 discs easily, you just had to kill him before that, and you gained a bit of time from dodging better

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Inthislzon View Post
    Lei Shen heroic is tuned for 535-540 ilvl on average. Drops from heroics are 535, 541 if thunderforged. Add ilvl 600 cloak to that and some upgrades, as that's what blizzard balances around.

    Disruptron on the other hand is balanced for ~480 ilvl, as it launched on 5.1 and was intended for solo players, the most powerful gear solo players can get comes from raid finder (483 at the time).
    if disruption is balance for 480 ilvl and lei shen is for 540 ilvl, Explain how paragon and method does it in 520ilvl. That means in your logic any method member can kill disruption in 460 blues, which you know is not true. Why is this? becuase theres no player skill in the boss. Its pure numbers while hopeing for the best RNG with jumps. To add you do not know if disprution is balance for 483 gear since he is in the "now youre just showing off". league and not actually "supposed" to be killed in the same manner as battletron for instance.




    [quote]
    Sorry to burst your bubble but at the intended itemlevel beams ONESHOT. There is no "oh, i got hit, better pop bubble". There is "oh, i got hit, better try again". That's where the "no warlocks" comes from, as warlocks could survive one hit and had a VASTLY easier time. Disruptron's difficulty take a HUGE hit when you don't get oneshotted by everything.[/qoute]

    you could bubble when you see you will get hit if youre lucky being off the global. (although this is out of the argument about which is harder, just a recovery to my "bursted" bubble)



    [qoute]
    You overgeared disruptron. Gather a set of ~480 gear and try your hand at disruptron again. You'll be surprised.[/qoute]
    and you please gather 520, no cloak, no meta gem and go kill lei shen HC

  19. #79
    Disruptron was not very difficult mechanically. Running a circle around the room after massive discs come out, staying 1 step behind them and you dont even have to worry about dodging.. you just run. They spawn at such a perfect rate.
    To the people who say do disruptron with <ilvl500 gear -- try doing heroic lei shen with even ilvl522 gear; the whole gearing thing is moot.

    Actual comparison in general is moot - solo vs group implies too many factors that can not be compared in a 1 to 1 basis

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Stinalicious View Post
    if disruption is balance for 480 ilvl and lei shen is for 540 ilvl, Explain how paragon and method does it in 520ilvl. That means in your logic any method member can kill disruption in 460 blues, which you know is not true. Why is this? becuase theres no player skill in the boss. Its pure numbers while hopeing for the best RNG with jumps. To add you do not know if disprution is balance for 483 gear since he is in the "now youre just showing off". league and not actually "supposed" to be killed in the same manner as battletron for instance.
    Because they are the best in the world. They play better than you or me, that's what "being the best" means.

    And i'm pretty much sure that the best ele shaman/lock can beat disruptron on 463 gear with full raid buffs btw. DPS requeriment is just a bit above 80k, and they can do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stinalicious View Post
    you could bubble when you see you will get hit if youre lucky being off the global. (although this is out of the argument about which is harder, just a recovery to my "bursted" bubble)
    First you claim "there is no skill, only RNG" then you claim "well, you can react to discs coming by bubbling. Something doesn't match here. If you can see them coming and therefore are able to bubble before you are hit, then you are able to dodge them, so no "rng", just player skill.

    Also why paladins? I killed it as WW XD

    Quote Originally Posted by Stinalicious View Post
    and you please gather 520, no cloak, no meta gem and go kill lei shen HC
    I am not, nor pretend to be, the best player in the world.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by boomkinhero View Post
    Actual comparison in general is moot - solo vs group implies too many factors that can not be compared in a 1 to 1 basis
    The comparison here, or at least what i'm defending, is that a raid will kill H:lei shen before all their members kill disruptron on the same try using the gear intended for both and assuming everyone got a 1v1 with disruptron on a personal instance.
    Last edited by Inthislzon; 2013-09-09 at 04:05 PM.

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