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  1. #81
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inthislzon View Post
    The comparison here, or at least what i'm defending, is that a raid will kill H:lei shen before all their members kill disruptron on the same try using the gear intended for both and assuming everyone got a 1v1 with disruptron on a personal instance.
    That is a dumb comparison. There is a reason Disruptron is a solo encounter. There is a reason Lei Shen is a group encounter and not an encounter designed to be done solo. Solo encounters inherently will challenge an individual more because group encounters require not just personal but also group coordination responsibility.

    You can die on a raid boss from something that isn't your fault, you can contribute to a raid wipe by allowing others to die. Neither is doable in a solo fight.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    That is a dumb comparison. There is a reason Disruptron is a solo encounter. There is a reason Lei Shen is a group encounter and not an encounter designed to be done solo. Solo encounters inherently will challenge an individual more because group encounters require not just personal but also group coordination responsibility.

    You can die on a raid boss from something that isn't your fault, you can contribute to a raid wipe by allowing others to die. Neither is doable in a solo fight.
    That's what i've been saying the ENTIRE thread. Thanks for repeating.

  3. #83
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inthislzon View Post
    That's what i've been saying the ENTIRE thread. Thanks for repeating.
    I don't care what you have been saying because the point isn't that, the point is that the difficulty of the two cannot be compared.

  4. #84
    Disruptron takes personal skill and has a lower dps requirement, Lei Shen takes coordination, teamwork, focus over a much longer period, and has a higher dps check.

    Of course you can compare difficulty - number of failed attempts before success. In which case, Lei Shen wins easily. Completing both encounters in the appropriate gear, Disruptron took me like 20-30 attempts as a feral back in 5.1, and Lei Shen took 250+ pulls.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariol View Post
    Why would he be more difficult as horde?
    Because the grates in the arena prevented melee from abusing the levitate bug, ranged could abuse the spell as the outside edge of the arena was slightly higher (no grates) thus allowing them to stand in 1 position (safe spot from balls) with levitate on (beams wont hit you) and just free cast on the gnome for the full fight ignoring every mechanic.

    Alliance had no lowered grates in their floor so melee could levitate up and ignore the beams fine, alliance ranged could use the same safe spot as horde (aprox 1/3rd up the side of the arena right against the wall).

    Thus horde melee are the only people that had zero opportunity to abuse the bugs in the fight.

    At the end of the day you can't really compare the fights, on a personal level I felt Disruptron was harder, lei shen made me sleepy after the first couple of times in each phase however getting 25 people to coordinate properly on transitions was another beast entirely.

    EDIT: Oh and it's worth pointing out that a solid 30% of my Disruptron attempts were ruined by invisible balls.
    Last edited by Thisisanalt; 2013-09-09 at 06:38 PM.

  6. #86
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thisisanalt View Post
    Because the grates in the arena prevented melee from abusing the levitate bug, ranged could abuse the spell as the outside edge of the arena was slightly higher (no grates) thus allowing them to stand in 1 position (safe spot from balls) with levitate on (beams wont hit you) and just free cast on the gnome for the full fight ignoring every mechanic. Alliance had no lowered grates in their floor so melee could levitate up and ignore the beams fine, alliance ranged could use the same safe spot as horde (aprox 1/3rd up the side of the arena right against the wall). Thus horde melee are the only people that had zero opportunity to abuse the bugs in the fight.
    From what I know that is not quite accurate. I have absolutely zero sympathy for people who "can't use Levitate" for whatever reason, but the real problem is this:

    When they patched the "Levitate" exploit/cheese, they did so by raising the beams. Then players who were Horde, due to the lowered grates, weren't able to clear the beam even by jumping properly.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    From what I know that is not quite accurate. I have absolutely zero sympathy for people who "can't use Levitate" for whatever reason, but the real problem is this:

    When they patched the "Levitate" exploit/cheese, they did so by raising the beams. Then players who were Horde, due to the lowered grates, weren't able to clear the beam even by jumping properly.


    Correct. I need to stress this because there is so much misinformation and flaming in this thread.

  8. #88
    You poor, poor ranged humping the shit out of the safe walls on Disruptron like they were pillars in Season 3 /violin

  9. #89
    Latency is a much bigger issue with disruptron, it seems like the lasers are far easier to jump with good ping
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  10. #90
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Disruptron takes personal skill and has a lower dps requirement, Lei Shen takes coordination, teamwork, focus over a much longer period, and has a higher dps check.

    Of course you can compare difficulty - number of failed attempts before success. In which case, Lei Shen wins easily. Completing both encounters in the appropriate gear, Disruptron took me like 20-30 attempts as a feral back in 5.1, and Lei Shen took 250+ pulls.
    Disruptron has a lower dps requirement because it's balanced around a lower tier. That's like comparing T14 vs T15 boss dps checks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Disruptron has a lower dps requirement because it's balanced around a lower tier. That's like comparing T14 vs T15 boss dps checks.
    I was obviously comparing the dps requirements to the available gear at that time.

    When the Brawler's guild was released in 5.1, the available ilvl was around 505 or so at the time. A solo dps in 505 gear was capable of around 110k dps give or take a few (140k in raids). Disruptron has a dps check of around 80k dps.

    When heroic Lei Shen was released in 5.2, the average available ilvl when players first reached him was around 525-530. An extremely excellent dps at that point would be able to hit maybe 180k dps in raid. The dps check for phase one of Lei Shen was 175k average dps per player across 20 dps in a 25m raid. (35% of 1747 million in 170-175 seconds assuming near-perfect play and transitions.)

    Requiring ~70% of possible dps vs 97% - I'll have to give the stricter dps check reward to Lei Shen. I'm well aware that there's more movement associated with Disruptron for melee, but when I was doing the fight, the dps check was almost never relevant regardless of my buff status. Epicus Maximus and Milhouse Manastorm were both significantly higher dps checks than Disruptron.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Requiring ~70% of possible dps vs 97% - I'll have to give the stricter dps check reward to Lei Shen. I'm well aware that there's more movement associated with Disruptron for melee, but when I was doing the fight, the dps check was almost never relevant regardless of my buff status. Epicus Maximus and Milhouse Manastorm were both significantly higher dps checks than Disruptron.
    Epicus was, Milhouse not much. A bit of luck on the first crystal spawns and the fight got quite easy, even under 500 ilvl unbuffed.

    On topic : I'd say Disruptron was a joke, even compared to normal mode Lei Shen.

  13. #93
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Requiring ~70% of possible dps vs 97% - I'll have to give the stricter dps check reward to Lei Shen. I'm well aware that there's more movement associated with Disruptron for melee, but when I was doing the fight, the dps check was almost never relevant regardless of my buff status. Epicus Maximus and Milhouse Manastorm were both significantly higher dps checks than Disruptron.
    Speaking melee POV, you get times on disruptron where you physically can't dps him because he's humping the middle totem. It is not possible to keep 100% uptime on disruptron while as lei shen it definitely is (and is expected).

    Also, if you're using the available ilvl for one you have to use the available ilvl for the other, or a mix inbetween. It seems unlikely to expect people to have gear from clearing heroic raids multiple times. I know I was only 495~ when I first killed disruptron and the enrage was certainly an issue because it meant you had to take risks to keep uptime.

    Let's not pretend lei shens personal player requirements are higher than disruptron in fair scenarios. Almost everyone will know disruptron wins that (as someone who said what if disruptron had 2000000000hp and 24 more players involved). It gets murky when you compare the coordination required on a raid boss vs that of a solo boss.

    For me it's an easy comparison because I just think of it from a weakest link PoV. It doesn't make it directly comparable though, it's all down to our interpretation of what the difficult bits are.

    Epicus was also a much easier dps check than millhouse without god RNG.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  14. #94
    I think you've made my point clear. I definitely did use the available ilvl at the instant the first person encountered the fight. It was around 505 when 5.1 dropped. Later on, you could've hit around ilvl 517 or so before 5.2, just like you can be 551 now. You were able to kill disruptron with 10 or so ilvls lower than the max available gear at the time of its release. That would be mathematically impossible for Lei Shen. You found disruptron dps check to be hard. Impossible > hard.

    Yes, disruptron had higher mechanical difficulty to a single player. I did it as a feral. Yet it took what? 5? hours from 5.1 release before someone killed him. It took Paragon a week and a half to kill Lei Shen and they were even going against the easier version (I've progressed on that fight in both 10/25 with different guilds so yeah, easier.)

    My metric for difficulty is fairly simple - how long it took for the elite players to achieve the goal. Heroic LS blows disruptron away in that regard.

  15. #95
    Scarab Lord Nivis's Avatar
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    On a sidenote: Disrupton as a 25 man boss with the appropriate amount of HP could be quite funny.

  16. #96
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    I think you've made my point clear. I definitely did use the available ilvl at the instant the first person encountered the fight. It was around 505 when 5.1 dropped. Later on, you could've hit around ilvl 517 or so before 5.2, just like you can be 551 now. You were able to kill disruptron with 10 or so ilvls lower than the max available gear at the time of its release. That would be mathematically impossible for Lei Shen. You found disruptron dps check to be hard. Impossible > hard.
    Except you're assuming a higher intended gear level to make your argument work.

    Yes, disruptron had higher mechanical difficulty to a single player. I did it as a feral. Yet it took what? 5? hours from 5.1 release before someone killed him. It took Paragon a week and a half to kill Lei Shen and they were even going against the easier version (I've progressed on that fight in both 10/25 with different guilds so yeah, easier.)
    1 is a 2 minute fight 1 is over 10 minutes, 1 has a 10 second run in one has a 1minute run in. I also often find myself waiting around for the slower people in my raid group, have always done for some minutes after I was ready. Also as you add extra people extra mistakes add on, this being the reason disruptron would be practically impossible as a raid boss for most - mistakes on that fight outright kill (in appropriate gear) whereas being a step off here and there on lei shen will only kill on very key parts of the fight that don't make up most of it. There is a LOT more leeway on Lei Shen, in other words. We saw what happens when a boss requires disruptron like personal perfomance (atramedes hc pre pre pre nerf).

    My metric for difficulty is fairly simple - how long it took for the elite players to achieve the goal. Heroic LS blows disruptron away in that regard.
    I guess in your world 25man was super easy conveniently until paragon went 10man, then 10man was super easy?
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  17. #97
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Yes, disruptron had higher mechanical difficulty to a single player. I did it as a feral. Yet it took what? 5? hours from 5.1 release before someone killed him.
    5 hours for a ranged or levitate, or 5 hours for a melee? Other point is Disruptron is significantly easier for some classes than others (I'd imagine Feral has a harder time though).

  18. #98
    Disruptron as horde melee in gear that existed when he was out is absolutely the most difficult PvE boss in the game, for a single individual, by miles and miles. It is massively easier for ranged or melee that levitated, to the point of being a joke in comparison. Lei Shen is probably harder overall because you need 25 people to not screw up, even though it's an order of magnitude easier for any one person in the raid.
    Last edited by Xanthan; 2013-09-10 at 03:03 PM.

  19. #99
    Lei shen requires far more from a player in terms of skill than disruption does, theres nothing to discuss really. Saying disruption is hard is the same as saying
    "omg that boss is so hard each time i bring him under 30% hp he has 95% chance to oneshot me".

    Lei shen truely tests any player in various skills such as timing, DPS, communication, awareness, coordination and what not.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    I guess in your world 25man was super easy conveniently until paragon went 10man, then 10man was super easy?
    Seriously lay off. He's not trying to start a 10v25 debate but you are. It wasn't a Paragon bash either so you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

    There's a handful of people that have done both 10m HC progress and 25m HC progress and its more than fair to say 10m HC lei shen was more forgiving than 25, just like Durumu and consorts were significantly easier on 10m and the complete lack of a dps check in terms of enrage on all encounters.

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