How hard is Flexi raid?

[Nobleshield]

Someone said this to the devs and they responded "pugged once you had 25 man gear, don't expect it for the first 6 weeks" or something along those lines.

Kind of see that, it's new content so people will be learning. You certainly couldn't pug ICC with any success on 10 or 25 when it came out.

Guess we'll find out shortly!

Well I hope so, because Flex sounds like the best thing since sliced bread and if it's still going to be as challenging as normal (relatively speaking of course) for shittier loot then it's going to be a bust.

[kamuimac]

Upon saying all of that, there have been numerous tweets to Dev's and GC about this and the reply is that if Flex seems too hard then get better pug's or try to gear up more in Lfr. The same reasoning goes into Heroic modes, if they are too difficult do more Normals,Normals too hard then do Flex,and so on which should work as long as people aren't expecting Flex to be a lfr with pugs.

if it will be really like this then whats even the point of making flex into complete different difficulty instead just scrap normals and leave flex as normals -_-
or maybe they thought it would be too radical for patch not expansion .... -_- like literaly if it will be only 10-15 % less then normal then ...whate the point of having normal tuned like they are now -_-

[Tziva]

GC tweeted that it would be very beneficial to not have the minumum amount of players needed for Flex but to get as many as you can will help. Blue posts also mentioned they are happy with Flex tuning and their difficulty on the same day we ran it and it was suprisingly more difficult than i was expecting. People are supposed to PUG this lol? I am on a good server and we pug Tot with some of it Heroic but i see people wiping a lot in Flex if the pug has bad's.

The tuning GC is talking about is likely different than the tuning it was for testing on the PTR, at least the first round (I tested wings 2/3/4 the first time around - I did miss wing 1 which I heard was more reasonable). There were multiple blue statements that the testing phase was overtuned (including within the feedback threads), and the forum feedback was evidence of that, with even most of the top 1% guilds admitted flex was tuned too tightly for its intended audience. I think since then it has likely been adjusted.

The 10 vs 25 man size was an issue, too, and I'm not sure if that was fixed. Yes, the tuning is supposed to get easier the more people you bring (in part to discourage people from booting folks just to make it easier), but some of the fights were really difficulty to beat with 10 people -- even a full team of 13HM raiders -- but became completely trivial with 25 people. The difference is not supposed to be that significant.

FWIW, the goal of flex isn't actually for PuGing and people aren't "supposed" to run it with random pickups - it's supposed to be geared towards a regular team who maybe just isn't as "good" as normal requires. That said, I have confidence that it will be PuGable and hopefully will have a favourable impact on reviving PuGs on lower progression realms where they have more or less disappeared.

[Hyve]

From everything I've seen, you should expect a Flexible Raid to be roughly the difficulty of Normal Mode, minus those really painful moments. Flex isn't going to be a pushover, it is mainly about the opportunity to bring the number of players that suits you best, not that it is easier or harder then certain other types of content.

A Heroic Guild should see no issue at all with Flexible Raiding, and as Normal Mode guild that has cleared this tier shouldn't struggle for too long, but don't expect it to be "Walk in and LOLCOPTER EVERYTHING DIES LFR style"

[Schmeebs]

My hopes for Flex is to help promote Alts to play and help a smaller guild get more active with social/nonraiding members participating with occasional pugs maybe.

Its a good idea and from what I've seen the tuning seems about right hopefully they don't nerf it a ton on live makign it basically faceroll

[MoanaLisa]

People are supposed to PUG this lol?

Once strats are known and people get some gear--say about eight weeks in--the first wings will be very puggable and increasingly so thereafter. I'm sure some will give it a shot first go-around though and that will be interesting.

Let's not forget that all of this--variable raid sizes and scaling--is brand new and I'm sure that Blizzard has a theory about how it's supposed to work on live. The reality at first may be out of line with the theory so we might see a lot of adjustments to the opening wings as they sort out what works theoretically versus really for real. This has happened before and will likely happen again every time they introduce new things that are only roughly balanced.

[NRL1515]

With 14 bosses you would have to be really moving to clear that in two nights, just on the amount of trash and bosses especially if you just cleared normals.

I meant, once we clear Flex mode once, we'll use BOTH days to work on Normal mode, and no longer spend time in Flex. Hopefully by then, we'll have enough interest to maybe start another 10+ man group in our guild who will focus mainly on Flex on days other than M/Ws.

[Kaleredar]

Once strats are known and people get some gear--say about eight weeks in--the first wings will be very puggable and increasingly so thereafter. I'm sure some will give it a shot first go-around though and that will be interesting.

Let's not forget that all of this--variable raid sizes and scaling--is brand new and I'm sure that Blizzard has a theory about how it's supposed to work on live. The reality at first may be out of line with the theory so we might see a lot of adjustments to the opening wings as they sort out what works theoretically versus really for real. This has happened before and will likely happen again every time they introduce new things that are only roughly balanced.

From what I gather, they never really intended the flex mode raids to fill any sort of PuGing niche... it sounds like anything happening to that effect would be a "happy coincidence"

[Azrile]

Didn't they say it was meant to be tuned more like 10-man in Wrath? Those were pugged often (but I find it kind of amusing that I recall it mostly being 25s that were pugged because they were a bit easier overall since the majority of players were running 10s with their guild)

I find it a bit weird if Flex is going to be that challenging, since it's supposed to be like a nerfed Normal/harder LFR, but from reading the above it sounds like it's pretty unforgiving, which defeats the purpose of Flex?

It is hard to use terminology because what is ´normal´

It is supposed to be similar to normal modes in WOTLK, or easier than normal modes in MOP (which were harder than LK normals). The thing a lot of people are making a mistake about is pugging. LK was NOT easily puggable when it launched... it was only easily puggable after a few months. Flex mode is going to require more coordination and leadership than LFR and more than LK pugging ( after a few months). I see too many people say that because LK was puggable, then Flex should be pluggable.. Yes, that is true, but after a few months, just like LK. For flex at launch, you will need more coordination than is present in a typical /2 Pug.

Talking solely about MOP. If you cleared normal modes fairly easily, then you will continue to clear normal modes easily and Flex will be very easy. If you struggled in normals this expansion, then Flex should be a challenge, but much easier. But no matter what you say, it is not going to be LFR (or PUG) where you can walk in with 2 tanks, 2 dps and a couple healers that know the fights, and have the rest of the DPS ignore the mechanisms. At the least, almost all players are going to need to know the fights going into it, or you are going to need to vent the fights.

That is going to be the rudest awakening.. The people who only have dps´d in LFR and think they will be able to PUG this the same way. Not going to happen, not until a few months from now... just like LK

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Kind of see that, it's new content so people will be learning. You certainly couldn't pug ICC with any success on 10 or 25 when it came out.



Well I hope so, because Flex sounds like the best thing since sliced bread and if it's still going to be as challenging as normal (relatively speaking of course) for shittier loot then it's going to be a bust.

I don´t know what is hard to understand. Think of TOT normal where the boss has 25% less health and most abilities do 25% less damage. If you took Lei Shen with 25% less health and 25% less damage... it would still not be puggable the first month from a random /2 and certainly not be similar to LFR. Would it be easier than normal Lei Shen.. definitely..

Stop comparing it to LFR.. it is nothing like LFR. Mechanisms matter. Just say it is normal mode with a 25% debuff.

[Deleted]

I find it a bit weird if Flex is going to be that challenging, since it's supposed to be like a nerfed Normal/harder LFR, but from reading the above it sounds like it's pretty unforgiving, which defeats the purpose of Flex?

Remember people are drawing their impressions from ptr, and there was blue posts specifically addressing the isse of it being too hard. That being that if its undertuned, everyone and their mother one shots it and they dont get anything useful from it. So for flex I wouldn't be surprised at all if they bring it down a bit. Personally I expect flex to be just like normal but with a 20-30% hp and damage nerf. I imagine the mechanics will be left more or less intact. Performing the encounter will be the demanding bit but the numbers side will be less stressful for less skilled groups (not calling em casual players thats just not accurate as some casual players with minimal time do very well progression wise).

[Azrile]

From what I gather, they never really intended the flex mode raids to fill any sort of PuGing niche... it sounds like anything happening to that effect would be a "happy coincidence"

Exactly, and certainly not the first month. The devs have said that Flex is not designed FOR pugs.. it would be a side benefit only. The real purpose of Flex is for two reasons.. 1. Normal modes have become more difficult this expansion, which blocked a lot of friends-n-family guilds 2. Just the ability to not sit people is a big deal for casual guilds. And I am adding a #3... loot drama.. With personalized loot, it takes away a bit more stress of being a raid leader, especially in a guilds of real life friends.

I really hope Blizzard reads their own words regarding the purpose of FLEX.. my biggest fear (being the current target audience of Flex), is that a lot of people are going to try to blind pug it similar to an LFR run, then run to the forums and scream that it is overtuned. I WANT the mechanisms on bosses, I WANT each player to have responsibility.. i WANT wipes and learning experiences... I WANT to overcome 5% wipes... But I really feel if a lot of people try to PUG it like LFR, it will end up being nerfed to being exactly like LFR.

[Dazzy]

Aren't they starting with 10N stats (boss health, boss damage etc.) then scaling for each extra person you add?

That was my understanding, i could be wrong though. I thought it was just a way for a group of 11-24 friends to raid together without pugging or sitting.

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Didn't they say it was meant to be tuned more like 10-man in Wrath? Those were pugged often (but I find it kind of amusing that I recall it mostly being 25s that were pugged because they were a bit easier overall since the majority of players were running 10s with their guild)

I find it a bit weird if Flex is going to be that challenging, since it's supposed to be like a nerfed Normal/harder LFR, but from reading the above it sounds like it's pretty unforgiving, which defeats the purpose of Flex?

The purpose isn't free gear. The sole purpose is for guilds that routinely have more than 10 people show up but can't get 25 competent people on a dead server. (or groups of friends).

It's so you don't have to sit people or have to pug.

[clevin]

Aren't they starting with 10N stats (boss health, boss damage etc.) then scaling for each extra person you add?

No. Even at 10 people Flex will be easier. It has the same mechanics as normal but is nerfed about 20-30%.

That was my understanding, i could be wrong though. I thought it was just a way for a group of 11-24 friends to raid together without pugging or sitting.
...The sole purpose is for guilds that routinely have more than 10 people show up but can't get 25 competent people on a dead server. (or groups of friends).

It's so you don't have to sit people or have to pug.

it's this TOO. In other words, if you have 10 or 25 people it's basically Normal, nerfed. However it ALSO lets you take an intermediate number of people for just the reasons you noted.

There will be tuning issues with the intermediate sizes - it's not going to be perfect. Imagine a boss that spawns pools on the ground... in 10 man it spawns, say, 3 pools. In 25 man it spawns 6. Well, when does the 4th pool spawn? At 14 people? 15? Same for the 5th pool... 18? 22? That kind of stuff can affect the perceived difficulty as much as damage from the boss, etc and will have to be tuned as they learn more.

[Azrile]

No. Even at 10 people Flex will be easier. It has the same mechanics as normal but is nerfed about 20-30%.



it's this TOO. In other words, if you have 10 or 25 people it's basically Normal, nerfed. However it ALSO lets you take an intermediate number of people for just the reasons you noted.

There will be tuning issues with the intermediate sizes - it's not going to be perfect. Imagine a boss that spawns pools on the ground... in 10 man it spawns, say, 3 pools. In 25 man it spawns 6. Well, when does the 4th pool spawn? At 14 people? 15? Same for the 5th pool... 18? 22? That kind of stuff can affect the perceived difficulty as much as damage from the boss, etc and will have to be tuned as they learn more.

Yeah, there will definitely be milestones as far as the number of healers, and number of adds and stuff like that. I think that is why they are making the bosses regressively less difficult the more people you have.. For instance, let´s say that 14 person is the one that causes a fourth pool to spawn.... his dps requirement on the boss is also less than the 13th persons.. so it would kinda cancel out so it isn´t likely he would get sat our just because of the 4th pool.

Also remember, the target of Flex is friends and family casual guilds, not the type of people who are going to min-max to that extent. If they are that dedicated to numbers, they would be in normal modes.

[marklar]

it may be hard for the "srs" raiders to understand, but there are many, many guilds who raid, read strats, bring flasks, food, and prepare as well as they can, yet still struggle in normal. for some guilds, horridon was a show-stopper for a long time. there are a myriad of reasons for this: casual attendance, lower skilled players, etc, but the reasons are largely irrelevant. the fact is they exist, they would like to raid, and most would like to avoid the cesspool that is LFR.

only around 1/2 of guilds who raided killed Lei Shin on normal. there are probably even more players and guilds who would like to raid, but are too intimidated by the learning curve. so whether you agree or not, blizzard decided to add a new difficultly to address this rather large player base.

i think flex is brilliant. it solves so many problems; it removes the attendance boss, removes loot drama, removes benched player drama, and should allow the group to progress at a much better rate than they could have done in normal modes.

flex is not designed for random pug groups; there would be no point to add a "pug" difficulty because it doesn't solve anything.

[Deleted]

it may be hard for the "srs" raiders to understand, but there are many, many guilds who raid, read strats, bring flasks, food, and prepare as well as they can, yet still struggle in normal. for some guilds, horridon was a show-stopper for a long time. there are a myriad of reasons for this: casual attendance, lower skilled players, etc, but the reasons are largely irrelevant. the fact is they exist, they would like to raid, and most would like to avoid the cesspool that is LFR.

only around 1/2 of guilds who raided killed Lei Shin on normal. there are probably even more players and guilds who would like to raid, but are too intimidated by the learning curve. so whether you agree or not, blizzard decided to add a new difficultly to address this rather large player base.

i think flex is brilliant. it solves so many problems; it removes the attendance boss, removes loot drama, removes benched player drama, and should allow the group to progress at a much better rate than they could have done in normal modes.

flex is not designed for random pug groups; there would be no point to add a "pug" difficulty because it doesn't solve anything.

How does it solve attendance problems? You still need at least 10 players.

[Deleted]

How does it solve attendance problems? You still need at least 10 players.

To run a ten man and raid regularly, you usually need 12-15 people.

ofc when people don't get to raid as much they lose interest and don't turn up. Sods law dictates they do this on nights when you need them to be online, leaving you with 9 men and no raid.

Flexi is easier and you can go with a minimum of 7 if you are really desperate, but it also means that raiders 11-15 get to go raiding and therefore aren't going to be as prone to getting hacked off with the whole thing and leaving the guild/game.

[Deleted]

How does it solve attendance problems? You still need at least 10 players.

I believe flexi needs 8 minimum. Which certainly makes things a little easier.

OT; I would not expect much harder than LFR, in LFR you can faceroll and ignore tactics. I expect in flexi you won't need top DPS or whatever but you will HAVE to follow tactics at the very least, which is very reasonable.

[Tziva]

I believe flexi needs 8 minimum. Which certainly makes things a little easier.

Just to clarify this since I've seen some debate: You can queue with as few as seven. However, the the difficulty / health doesn't scale down past the tuning for ten people, meaning that until you overgear the content you'll probably still need ten to actually beat the encounter.

[Deleted]

I believe flexi needs 8 minimum. Which certainly makes things a little easier.

"Flexible Raid Difficulty
Patch 5.4 will add a a new raid difficulty:

Bring anywhere from 10 to 25 people to your raid and the difficulty will automatically scale."

From the front page. While I suppose you COULD bring 7 or 8 people, if the tuning as close to normal as others have suggested I doubt you would get very far. Technically you can do normal raids with 7 or 8 players, but I've never seen anyone attempt it.