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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Question to see what others think about this semi-hypothetical scenario. I say semi because this happened a few months ago, a little after ToT was released. At the time, the guild was struggling on Horridon (I had just come back and was leveling an alt, not planning on actually raiding fulltime anymore). A few people in the guild wanted to put some time in running T14 raids to help gear people up, while a few others wanted to focus solely on T15 and Horridon progress. It got to the point where a few core raiders left the guild because on what would have been T15 raid nights, it was decided to raid T14 instead and help gear some lesser-geared members up.

    My question is: Do you think that's a good or bad thing to do? If you were in a raid team struggling on an early normal boss (and if that concept is totally foreign to you, imagine a friend who just isn't as good as you are) and a week or two you were told that instead of putting in more attempts on the boss giving you trouble the group was going to raid the previous (and now nerfed) tier instead for more gear/helping to gear people up, would it be a reason for leaving the guild? This came up because personally I'd rather devote time to progression than to go and clear what amounts to outdated content on the off chance someone might get an upgrade; with the gearing options in 5.4 going back to ToT is even less of a valid idea since you can get equivalent gear from Siege LFR and even better gear from Siege Flex, so it seems like the argument of "gearing people up" is a moot point, and I'm not sure how I would approach that suggestion if it were to ever crop up again.
    You have to remember that WoW players are not mature, like EVER. Guild leaders are not manager types or people with people skills, they are simply players that need help by getting assistance from other players. So you assume there is a reasonable intelligence or thought behind forming guilds or purpose. There is not.

    Yes a CORE group is is that, people that progress through raiding. Personally I feel that if you join a guild and the guild changes it's mission statement or reason for being then that is a good reason to leave. I hate guilds personally, I am tired of bickering, lack of consistent behavior and constant disagreements or changing of minds (such as Tier 15 core groups having to assist Tier 14 people on a whim). That just benefits lazy people and in the end core group people are being punished for their persistence.

    If it weren't for the Guild perks I wouldn't be in a guild at all, period. There are PLENTY of good PUGs out there, I know.. because I have had some really good random groups, the problem is we can't ALL be on at the same time, that's the REAL issue. Life is what's happening outside of WoW which impacts players and the quality of guilds.

    What you are left with is 15 year old's who have nothing better to do that have ZERO clue about how to run a guild they are there because they can do it 24/7.. sadly that's the truth! You should NOT think a guild is run with in effort, it's there to cater to the people that can play ALL the time. People leave guilds, people come and go and it has always been this way and always will.

    People are the PROBLEM, not guilds, not WoW, and certainly not content. Why do you think the majority of games are SINGLE player? Yeah because online games are REALLY hard to get cooperation, developers see $$$ signs, but with the exception of WoW no one makes any money at it... it's a advertising draw... People are fickle never satisfied never content, its whats exciting NOW, tomorrow it's going to suck again. Not surprised people leave guilds and come and go like the wind.. that's the nature of people as well.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Question to see what others think about this semi-hypothetical scenario. I say semi because this happened a few months ago, a little after ToT was released. At the time, the guild was struggling on Horridon (I had just come back and was leveling an alt, not planning on actually raiding fulltime anymore). A few people in the guild wanted to put some time in running T14 raids to help gear people up, while a few others wanted to focus solely on T15 and Horridon progress. It got to the point where a few core raiders left the guild because on what would have been T15 raid nights, it was decided to raid T14 instead and help gear some lesser-geared members up.

    My question is: Do you think that's a good or bad thing to do? If you were in a raid team struggling on an early normal boss (and if that concept is totally foreign to you, imagine a friend who just isn't as good as you are) and a week or two you were told that instead of putting in more attempts on the boss giving you trouble the group was going to raid the previous (and now nerfed) tier instead for more gear/helping to gear people up, would it be a reason for leaving the guild? This came up because personally I'd rather devote time to progression than to go and clear what amounts to outdated content on the off chance someone might get an upgrade; with the gearing options in 5.4 going back to ToT is even less of a valid idea since you can get equivalent gear from Siege LFR and even better gear from Siege Flex, so it seems like the argument of "gearing people up" is a moot point, and I'm not sure how I would approach that suggestion if it were to ever crop up again.
    So if I'm understanding you correctly your question is this: "Is it a douche move to leave a guild that does a couple nights of last-tier content in order to gear-up some under-geared members instead of struggling and likely not killing an early boss in current-tier content?"

    Yes. I think that's a douche move. While I might not be the first to line up to do a raid from which I stand to gain no benefit (I'm selfish [read: human], sue me), I don't think I'd leave a guild over it. However, if you're dragging along the Guildmaster's GF/BF (really anyone, but specifically an obvious favorite) to raids who keeps fucking up and dying and/or causing us to wipe, then I'd be out of the guild like Pluto out of the Planets Club. I have no patience for perpetual fuck-ups not being dropped like the bad habit they are.

  3. #63
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Question to see what others think about this semi-hypothetical scenario. I say semi because this happened a few months ago, a little after ToT was released. At the time, the guild was struggling on Horridon (I had just come back and was leveling an alt, not planning on actually raiding fulltime anymore). A few people in the guild wanted to put some time in running T14 raids to help gear people up, while a few others wanted to focus solely on T15 and Horridon progress. It got to the point where a few core raiders left the guild because on what would have been T15 raid nights, it was decided to raid T14 instead and help gear some lesser-geared members up.

    My question is: Do you think that's a good or bad thing to do? If you were in a raid team struggling on an early normal boss (and if that concept is totally foreign to you, imagine a friend who just isn't as good as you are) and a week or two you were told that instead of putting in more attempts on the boss giving you trouble the group was going to raid the previous (and now nerfed) tier instead for more gear/helping to gear people up, would it be a reason for leaving the guild? This came up because personally I'd rather devote time to progression than to go and clear what amounts to outdated content on the off chance someone might get an upgrade; with the gearing options in 5.4 going back to ToT is even less of a valid idea since you can get equivalent gear from Siege LFR and even better gear from Siege Flex, so it seems like the argument of "gearing people up" is a moot point, and I'm not sure how I would approach that suggestion if it were to ever crop up again.

    Stepping backwards should never be considered by a progression guild. If your players are not up to part recruit ones that are. This goes double for servers where it is common practice to be able to pug heroic raid content. The whole "I need more gear" argument gets very old very quick. If you had the gear to complete the previous tier you have the gear to start the new one.





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  4. #64
    Personally I believe that there is a limit to how much time you can hold the rest of your raid back to gear up those few, at the end of the day with more and more patches its becoming easier and easier to gear up via other means and catch up in some way. The early bosses of a raid are not all the difficult and expect lower item level than what most people who cleared the previous tier have!

    My guild is currently in the position where we keep gearing up new people and then they leave for varying reasons, generally they just quit or more realms without a single word said. We have decided to turn to the approach of having a small but dedicated group with only 1 person needing to catch up, rather than gearing up a load of new people who might let us down again.

  5. #65
    The Lightbringer Injin's Avatar
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    MMO champion logic -

    TBC was the best! Raids should require you to go back and do all the previous tiers before you get to the latest one!

    But also

    Go back and do a previous tier? What are you, insane? Ditch that guild ASAP, noobs.

    Sigh.
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  6. #66
    I'm in a bit of a similar situation.

    I'm starting a new 10 man group in the guild. We start tonight. Not many people are geared enough for Siege normal - I'm one of 2 people in the group over a 520 ilevel. So, as raid leader, I've made the executive decision that we'll start with Siege flex and head back in to ToT for gear. I've made this clear to any and all those I've spoken with about the group, and so some people have decided not to come, join, etc.

    My thoughts: why slam your heads against a brick wall (I.e. Horridon) until it does or your group dissolves, when you have other options that make the fight easier? Yeah, you spend 2-3 nights in T14 content, so what? Those nights could make the progression on Horridon significantly easier.

  7. #67
    Immortal Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    MMO champion logic -

    TBC was the best! Raids should require you to go back and do all the previous tiers before you get to the latest one!

    But also

    Go back and do a previous tier? What are you, insane? Ditch that guild ASAP, noobs.

    Sigh.
    Except it makes perfect sense if you can put 2 and 2 together.

    The TBC crowd enjoyed attunements and that you had a REASON to go back to do the old raids, even if you see it as a requirement.

    The same TBC crowd recognizes that right now new tiers make the old ones obsolete, and that going back right now is a bad move for progress.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  8. #68
    Guild masters who take decisions without asking the members or against what the members want, will soon find themselves "leading" trash leveling guilds.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Bisso View Post
    My guild was/is in the exact same situation, where they were stuck on normal horridon for a few months now with no real progress happening. They ultimately stopped raiding all together. I'm personally looking for another guild right now, or at least a raiding group I can rely on. I wasn't playing with my guild to begin with, but if I were to be stuck on Horridon for more than a week, I would look for solutions, or replace the slackers, or change guild because the whole group is just not cutting it as a whole.

    I dislike being in a group that doesn't progress, but I HATE being in a group that just don't care at all. Going back to old content isn't an option. It's basicly admitting defeat and be fine with it. It's, to me, a proof that the group you are raiding with isn't interested at all.
    In Vanilla we used to run old raids all the time for special items (looking at you neltharion's tear). Same thing happened in TBC with Gruul's lair and to a lesser extent karazhan. Currently though, old content shouldn't be revisited I agree.

  10. #70
    It depends what you're looking for in a guild and what sort of relationship you have with your guild. Personally, I like to progress, but I've also been with my guild for a long time. I'm friendly with my guildies, and very good friends with a few of them. If I were going to leave, I would have to have a good reason beyond a few cancelled raids.

    That said, some people aren't as interested in the social aspects of the game. They want to progress and they want to advance their characters in the game. If they guild they're in is not helping them do that, and they aren't enjoying the game, it's not a terrible thing for them to leave the guild. They might not be a good fit for that particular guild anyway.

    Ultimately it should just come down to the question: are you having fun playing the game? If yes, than you're probably in a good place. If not, maybe it's time to ask why you aren't enjoying yourself. Lack of progression? Not a very social guild? Lots of yelling in vent chat? Whatever the reason is, if you can do something to fix it and you can live with your decision, you should do it.

  11. #71
    I cant help but notice how many threads you keep making in which you whine about your guild and it's issues.

  12. #72
    The Lightbringer Bigbazz's Avatar
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    It was different in TBC.

    Firstly, I don't know about you but I don't know anyone who thought the attunements were a good idea during TBC, maybe looking back we say yes but back then we hated it, do you realise how annoying it was to have to attune people to Black Temple? It was a long ass quest chain which looks awesome and seems epic when you look back, but during the day we hated it because it took a lot of time and effort from a lot of people to get people up to date, that included killing 2 bosses (KT/Vashj) that were harder than the majority of T6, most guilds did 1-2 kills each for attunement and didnt bother further farming. When they removed the attunements it was the best thing, it opened up recruitment for a lot of guilds to a lot of skilled players, where as before guilds would not take those players because they didnt want to put in the time to attune them.


    Secondly, in TBC it was different because T6 raid items didn't make T5 or even T4 completely obsolete, the item difference between tiers was much smaller and there were select items in each tier that just stood above the rest, and were still being used by players in the later tiers, especially in the case of trinkets like Dragonspine Trophy. Even so, if you were in a guild that had farmed most of this shit you can be damn sure people complained about going back to do old stuff. Back then everything was done in a progress, so it was normal to see the better pugs or more casual guilds running Gruuls lair later in the expansion, and you wouldn't really see them raiding much T5, because it wasnt the "latest tier" mentality... But if you were in a real raiding guild that raided T6 then you just didn't want to go back to T5.

    These days though the difference between tiers is so big and gear is so homogenised that once a new tier comes out the previous tier is automatically obsolete, so even more reason to not want to go there.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2013-09-11 at 05:22 AM.
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  13. #73
    From my experience going back to do older content on raid nights is always a huge NO you have to make it optional on an off night. The chances are because its now nerfed old content people can be pugged to do it anyway. If you encourage raiders and say like 'if you have the gear your help would be appreciated and if you don't your attendance is expected' that's normally a subtle hint that works well. Were in a similar situation needing to gear people for 5.4

  14. #74
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    For me, no. I am in the guild for the people. I like progression, but to me there absolutely no freaking point why one should headbash a wall on boss X, if you lack the gear... Going to previous tier (my guild has done it at start of ToT, though this happened when the reset was almost done (Mon/Tue)) or lower ilvl place to gear up, gives you time to unwind... grab an alt or whatever if you yourself don't need anything from there on your main.

    If you'd leave the guild on the grounds that it is not enough progression for you, then the guild was not for you. If you don't want to do outdated content to help fellow raiders out, then best of finding another guild.

    I know/knew few people like that, who left/would leave if this was decided, but that is their choice.

    But is it bad if people do so? Yes and no. For a moment you might miss few people from your roster, but soon you will have more like minded people w/ you.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-09-11 at 08:45 AM.
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  15. #75
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgarlaw View Post
    I cant help but notice how many threads you keep making in which you whine about your guild and it's issues.
    In case you missed it, this happened before I came back to the guild fulltime, like 4 months ago or so. The only reason for asking was to gauge the opinion because we had some people leave in early ToT because of it, so I wanted to see if they were justified just in case ignoring SoO to run ToT was mentioned again.
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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Question to see what others think about this semi-hypothetical scenario. I say semi because this happened a few months ago, a little after ToT was released. At the time, the guild was struggling on Horridon (I had just come back and was leveling an alt, not planning on actually raiding fulltime anymore). A few people in the guild wanted to put some time in running T14 raids to help gear people up, while a few others wanted to focus solely on T15 and Horridon progress. It got to the point where a few core raiders left the guild because on what would have been T15 raid nights, it was decided to raid T14 instead and help gear some lesser-geared members up.

    My question is: Do you think that's a good or bad thing to do? If you were in a raid team struggling on an early normal boss (and if that concept is totally foreign to you, imagine a friend who just isn't as good as you are) and a week or two you were told that instead of putting in more attempts on the boss giving you trouble the group was going to raid the previous (and now nerfed) tier instead for more gear/helping to gear people up, would it be a reason for leaving the guild? This came up because personally I'd rather devote time to progression than to go and clear what amounts to outdated content on the off chance someone might get an upgrade; with the gearing options in 5.4 going back to ToT is even less of a valid idea since you can get equivalent gear from Siege LFR and even better gear from Siege Flex, so it seems like the argument of "gearing people up" is a moot point, and I'm not sure how I would approach that suggestion if it were to ever crop up again.

    I did this during the ToT, and we didn't lose a single member. Probably because everyone was on the same page and realised that since we'd started late, even though we HAD cleared two of the three instances (wasn't able to get Fear down), people were still pretty undergeared.

    Sounds to me that those who had gear didn't give a rat's behind about the rest of the guild struggling (aka loot whores) and wanted things done at their pace and not the pace of others who might've been new/unlucky with drops. Horridon at the start of ToT was a gear check, plain and simple. Continuing to run it when you simply couldn't do it would've in the long run costed you more members. So in the words of my healing officer "Good riddance to bad rubbish." for those that left.
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  17. #77
    Mechagnome Zenora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Question to see what others think about this semi-hypothetical scenario. I say semi because this happened a few months ago, a little after ToT was released. At the time, the guild was struggling on Horridon (I had just come back and was leveling an alt, not planning on actually raiding fulltime anymore). A few people in the guild wanted to put some time in running T14 raids to help gear people up, while a few others wanted to focus solely on T15 and Horridon progress. It got to the point where a few core raiders left the guild because on what would have been T15 raid nights, it was decided to raid T14 instead and help gear some lesser-geared members up.

    My question is: Do you think that's a good or bad thing to do? If you were in a raid team struggling on an early normal boss (and if that concept is totally foreign to you, imagine a friend who just isn't as good as you are) and a week or two you were told that instead of putting in more attempts on the boss giving you trouble the group was going to raid the previous (and now nerfed) tier instead for more gear/helping to gear people up, would it be a reason for leaving the guild? This came up because personally I'd rather devote time to progression than to go and clear what amounts to outdated content on the off chance someone might get an upgrade; with the gearing options in 5.4 going back to ToT is even less of a valid idea since you can get equivalent gear from Siege LFR and even better gear from Siege Flex, so it seems like the argument of "gearing people up" is a moot point, and I'm not sure how I would approach that suggestion if it were to ever crop up again.
    it has happened with my guild, this was before cata came out, one day i logged on and most of the officers and the "main team" had left the guild, they desided they wanted to make a 10 man hardcore guild of their own before cata came out and had taken those with them they saw fit. i was one of the high end healers in the guild, they had a priest already and they did want me but only if the other priest couldnt raid. (they asked me, i said no)

    3 months later they fell apart and joined a 25 man guild, while the guild i was in stayed strong, recruited new people and gotten further than them

  18. #78
    yes i would wouldent you?

  19. #79
    Quite frankly, I actually remember a guild on Killrogg called "Barbarians" which would raid BT and Sunwell, however, they had a guild for their alts and "to-be" barbarians called "Underdogs" which would slowly level them up and gear them until they could raid BT and Sunwell, quite a good idea, but it takes alot of effort.

  20. #80
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgarlaw View Post
    I cant help but notice how many threads you keep making in which you whine about your guild and it's issues.
    Don't go there. I got shouted down for pointing this out in an early thread.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenora View Post
    3 months later they fell apart and joined a 25 man guild, while the guild i was in stayed strong, recruited new people and gotten further than them

    I have seen the endless cycle of this over and over again as the years have passed. Build a raid team, accomplish the goal, someone feels they know or can do better, they break off maybe show a moducum of success then implode. It is just the way of players unless you are in a bleeding edge guild that never gets it wrong. Players do not want to build and grow, they want to receive.





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