Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1

    New raid leader here, I need some advice on how to forge a stronger team

    Hello everyone, I and a few friends started a fresh guild several weeks ago. Most of us returned to the game recently and have limited experience in the current content. As I cleared tot normal with a casual guild and have lots of earlier content HC experience, the role of raid leader fell on my hands. As we plan to eventually clear HC modes if possible, I started logging our raids to filter out possible weak points in our roster or give advice to struggling people.

    However my current knowledge of the game is limited, and I never filled such an important role in a guild before so I am not entirely sure how to analyze class performance based on logs from WOL .

    My questions to you would be:

    -Some basic guidelines on how I should check the performance of different classes in raids

    -What kind of loot distribution do you recommend for a guild that's made of 4-5 close friends and some additional people to fill the roster. What are the popular methods for these anyway? I haven't raided in heroic guilds since ruby sanctum

    -Could some of you check out most recent raid? We just got our first tot 10 group together , of course things are not going too smoothly yet, it will take a while until we actually get to clear HC content. Anyway, here is a log if any of you would be so kind to take the time to point out some obvious things that would be much much appreciated :
    (log also includes a mogushan clear which we did for our freshly dinged 90s, but the focus would be on TOT obviously)
    link:
    "WOL.COM" /reports/rt-5spn27779dxutp9a/ (sorry new user here)

  2. #2
    I can't speak for all of your raiders as I don't know advanced tactics for many classes except disc priest. Encounters in reverse order.

    Council - It's very obvious your disc priest didn't use Spirit shell or prayer of healing at all during this fight. Since its one of our strongest spells atm and probably will continue to be in 5.4. It doesn't make sense not to use it even if you are spamming Power Word:Shield. I know you are 3 healing most encounters but the added minor amount of damage from atonement on this fight is marginal at best.

    Horridon - Again this is a great atonement fight but not using spirit shell at all even on the first door or two isnt really helping all that much. No halo on this fight either? It can easily hit the tank and others if spaced right for 150-200k+.

    Jin'rokh - This fight looks better and again excels with good atonement use. But only casting 4 prayer of healing during lightning storms with sprit shell is pretty low.

    To check disc priests healing on most encounters, you want to look for top 6 heals in any order ranging from: LVL 90 talent such as Halo / Divine Star / Cascade, Divine Aegis (means crit shields), Spirit Shell, Power Word:Shield, Prayer of Healing, and Atonement usually. Spirit Shell, Divine Aegis and LVL 90 talent usually being top 3 unless a fight requires something different. This is in the encounter name, healing done link, then going to each persons name and checking healing by spell.

    Make sure in their buffs gained tab when you click on their name in healing done section that you notice their uptime on Archangel is more than just a few times as its a very powerful buff giving 25% extra healing for 18 seconds.

    You should ask your guildies what they feel is most appropriate for guild loot as some might like just rolling for it and others might feel like loot council is better. I myself am not too picky and will pass on things that would be an upgrade but would rather see someone else get a bigger upgrade from the item.
    Last edited by sherman9800; 2013-09-08 at 01:48 AM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by sherman9800 View Post
    I can't speak for all of your raiders as I don't know advanced tactics for many classes except disc priest. Encounters in reverse order.

    Council - It's very obvious your disc priest didn't use Spirit shell or prayer of healing at all during this fight. Since its one of our strongest spells atm and probably will continue to be in 5.4. It doesn't make sense not to use it even if you are spamming Power Word:Shield. I know you are 3 healing most encounters but the added minor amount of damage from atonement on this fight is marginal at best.

    Horridon - Again this is a great atonement fight but not using spirit shell at all even on the first door or two isnt really helping all that much. No halo on this fight either? It can easily hit the tank and others if spaced right for 150-200k+.

    Jin'rokh - This fight looks better and again excels with good atonement use. But only casting 4 prayer of healing during lightning storms with sprit shell is pretty low.
    Thank you I am sure to forward your thoughts to him.

  4. #4
    Bump for updated post above for you.

  5. #5
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    East Coast USA
    Posts
    3,390
    Quote Originally Posted by cszsolt3 View Post
    Hello everyone, I and a few friends started a fresh guild several weeks ago. Most of us returned to the game recently and have limited experience in the current content. As I cleared tot normal with a casual guild and have lots of earlier content HC experience, the role of raid leader fell on my hands. As we plan to eventually clear HC modes if possible, I started logging our raids to filter out possible weak points in our roster or give advice to struggling people.

    However my current knowledge of the game is limited, and I never filled such an important role in a guild before so I am not entirely sure how to analyze class performance based on logs from WOL .

    My questions to you would be:

    -Some basic guidelines on how I should check the performance of different classes in raids

    -What kind of loot distribution do you recommend for a guild that's made of 4-5 close friends and some additional people to fill the roster. What are the popular methods for these anyway? I haven't raided in heroic guilds since ruby sanctum

    -Could some of you check out most recent raid? We just got our first tot 10 group together , of course things are not going too smoothly yet, it will take a while until we actually get to clear HC content. Anyway, here is a log if any of you would be so kind to take the time to point out some obvious things that would be much much appreciated :
    (log also includes a mogushan clear which we did for our freshly dinged 90s, but the focus would be on TOT obviously)
    link:
    "WOL.COM" /reports/rt-5spn27779dxutp9a/ (sorry new user here)
    don't pussy foot around. if you want to be progressive do not cater to cry babies, loot whores, nor drama queens. lay down the law at the start and do not back down. you will eventually find yourself with players that WANT to clear the content and are willing to to the work in order to accomplish it.


    Lawful good does not always mean Lawful nice

  6. #6
    1) Basic guidelines on performance
    - Check buff uptimes for classes to make sure DoT's don't fall off etc
    - Make sure they use their cooldowns (both offensive and defensive) You can see this in buffs gained / cast
    - Compare them to their peers in the group to see if they are far below the average, these are generally the people you need to fix

    2) Loot system
    - Whatever you choose make sure its fair. Especially since its a group of friends that will be a bit of a clique and "outsiders". nothing will kill your team faster than unfair loot distribution.
    - You can roll for it / make loot councils / EGP / whatever. Perhaps ask your members to vote on it? That way they feel invested.

    3) Most recent raid: (council fight only)
    Holy pala, his cooldown usage is good except he never uses his personal damage reduction CD. Not a biggie in normals, it will be huge in heroics though. Its a good habit to get into. He talents DP, HA is far better, burst on demand cooldown for holy palas. In fact it all looks more than decent. The biggest thing he can work on is using holy shock on cooldown but he has a pretty decent utilisation of it.

    Warrior looks subpar. I'm no expert on warriors but he needs help I think. Shield barrier block usage was abysmal. He should look on the class specific forums for help.

    Disc priest was kind of covered but he doesn't use all his spells. Prayer of mending is notable in its absence, its a great spell. Ditch the PW:S glyph too, its more suited to pvp. He's a bit atonement happy tbh. I know its cool to say "look my damage heals the raid!" but theres too much reliance on it.

    Edit: Just saw Judgements poor excuse for a post above me. A raid is a team and you are the leader of that team. Theres different ways to lead and you need to know your people to know how to get the best out of them. If your team is full of hyperactive 11 year olds then his way may work. Otherwise I'd suggest a more mature approach based on circumstances. Creating an environment where the team address problems and give solutions is a good start (for instance "We need more dps on Sul" instead of "x was meterwhoring and hit Marlii!!!")
    Last edited by Deja Thoris; 2013-09-08 at 02:51 AM.

  7. #7
    Field Marshal Spikebebop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    The Bebop
    Posts
    66
    A simple "what to look for" requires you having basic knowledge of the classes and spells, and then comparing their damage/healing percentages with those of players in guilds a little ahead of your content, and on the same fights. Seeing that spells A,B,C account for x/y/z % of damage/healing done, and having it be the same for players who are clearing the content, should be reassuring.

    Also check uptimes (both activity % and dot uptimes for classes that use them, where applicable cuz dot uptimes might get wonky on add fights idk). If anyone is doing less damage than you think they should be, check their name and uncheck everyone else's on the damage sheet and see where in the fight their dps is dropping, then investigate further to remedy.

    If people are dying and healing isn't the issue, look at each player individually and check their buffs gained and healing received. Buffs will tell you if they are using personals and healing received will show if they healthstoned. Also pay attention to individual players damage taken, and sources, so you know who is doing what wrong.

    I also don't know what tanks you're using, but active mitigation uptime is also something you can check in the buffs gained area I believe, so shuffle for a monk, for example, should have close to 100% uptime I believe. The optimal uptimes vary for each tanks different abilities, so again you need to know the differences. I'm not sure I can say any more that is helpful.
    Last edited by Spikebebop; 2013-09-08 at 03:09 AM. Reason: walloftextcritme
    WoW is a game of information; the more you know, the better you are.

  8. #8
    Thank you for all the info guys. Could you tell me how I check the performance of a fury warrior? I tried looking into the rotation and comparing our warriors buffs etc to top ranking ones, but i have a hard time figuring out what to look for worldoflogs.com /reports/rt-5spn27779dxutp9a/details/8/?s=14600&e=15082

  9. #9
    Grunt
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    15
    I used this a LOT when I was learning to heal (I'm a new user, so can't post links) - google "evaluating healers with world of logs" and the first link should be to a blog called Cannot be Tamed. Check this page out, it's very valuable.
    Loot distribution depends a lot on who you are raiding with - friends? PUGS? I raid with close friends and we use loot council. We never have to pug. When we used to have to pug, we would make loot free roll that night. Another method to try is suicide kings (there is a nice explanation on youtube somewhere) or DKP but we never bothered with that, too much effort. If you are with friends and they are chill, there should never be any issue with loot. Loot whores don't belong in real raids. Raid to down bosses, not to gear up!
    As for the log, I can only comment briefly on the disc priest. For the council attempt (last one) they didn't use archangel on cooldown, and they used renew 11 times. For a disc priest, renew is a waste of a GCD. Also prayer of mending and spirit shell + prayer of healing were not used once. These are bread and butter spells for disc. I think other posters here will give better critique of the disc priest, I'm not so great at it myself
    The only other advice I can give is to make your raiders involved in decisions. No one wants to raid under a dictatorship. My team does everything democratically. You might find raid leading is a lot more work than you can handle, and it's tough to call everything - so delegate tasks. Make one of the healers boss of "team heal" - that person would call for healing cooldowns and dispels etc. Make some one else call for who to B-rez, when to wipe it, when to wait for a mass rez, etc. Encourage the whole team to give their opinions on strats, and make an event of farming for feast mats on off nights. Little things which make life easier can make a raid night a lot more efficient.
    Last edited by yzzie; 2013-09-08 at 05:10 AM. Reason: typo

  10. #10
    1) Performance: Depends on how much time you want to spend on game knowledge, but I'd recommend just reading spec guides. All casters have some form of DoT to keep up (and thus should have close to 100% up time consistently). I don't play melees, but most of those have some sort of DoT to keep up too. Try to see if people are using spells they shouldn't be using. DPS numbers can be good indicators too, if you know how the classes generate their damage.

    See if people follow their stat priorities. On almost all specs there's a clear winner when talking about secondary stats. If they run with the wrong stats or bad reforges, they sacrifice HPS/DPS.

    Are people aware of their CDs? Seeing your Shaman, he rarely uses AG. He has both 40% and 30% damage reduction spells with comparatively short CDs, but doesn't use them. The Disc doesn't use Pain Suppresion much. No Power Word: Barrier either.

    All these little seemingly insignificant things add up. The less DPS you have, the more damage people take due to not using defensive cooldowns, the longer fights last, the more mana your healers have to burn, the faster they are OOM.

    2) Loot

    In the raids I've been in, it has always been simple /roll 100 with a few special cases aside. Anything else is just asking for drama. Someone helps out your raid, why shouldn't he have the same chance at loot as anyone else? The only exceptions I could see would be completing set bonuses or trinkets. These two are significant ugrades, unlike all other loot that is rather common and generic.

  11. #11
    Blademaster strues's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    43
    Its late so I just looked at your warrior on Council because I noticed someone else commented on it. He/She is not using their main abilities to reduce damage taken. One usage of barrier and no shield blocks over the entire fight isnt doing your healers or raid any favors. I use them on cool down. Mainly barrier moreso than block on this fight. If they need someone to talk with for tips/advice I dont mind at all. Feel free to add HiimSteve#1256 if you are US

  12. #12
    Mechagnome Zenora's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    In a van near you!
    Posts
    568
    We use epgp for our loot system, if you raid you get like 50point, you get 50 points per progressive boss kill for the first 3 kills on that boss, you get 150 point per week for contributing stuff to the gb, 50points per sign up (example numbers)

    The addon will keep track of he loot and gear lvls and works out priority on loot so you dont have 1persn getting all the loot, as soon as one person gets loot teir priority goes down and the next person gets it. The addon does most of the work for you

  13. #13
    As far as what progression your wanting to do you have to consider some things.

    1) How good are your friends, and how badly do you want to raid with them? Bottom line is progression in heroic content takes time and effort, not just from a raiding perspective but from researching your class, knowing strats ect. If you have people that can't make those commitments then they need to be kicked to the curb or you need to accept that your not going to be clearing much on heroic.

    2) With regards to loot. In our 10 man we do a flat out need greed system, granted though most of us have been raiding together for almost 5 years and those that haven't been around that long are RL friends. DKP systems are normally a fair way to do things if your concerned about loot whoring. I've never been a fan of loot council because it can have a very unfair presentation to some other players.

    3) In regards to tanks. Tanks now have to be good to clear any kind of serious content, and by good I simply mean have to use AM in order to live. If you look at nothing else in WOL look at how many times things like shield barrier/block are being used, lack of AM means more direct healing needs to go onto your tanks. On heroic progression this tier I'd maintain SD uptime when needed and did anywhere from 35-45% of my own effective healing, if I'm bad at using AM that's a ton of extra healing the healers have to do and in progression it means we probably aren't going to down the content.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by sherman9800 View Post
    Horridon - Again this is a great atonement fight but not using spirit shell at all even on the first door or two isnt really helping all that much. No halo on this fight either? It can easily hit the tank and others if spaced right for 150-200k+.
    Spirit shell on Horridon normal ? If you like wasting cast time on completely worthless stuff sure...

  15. #15
    Pandaren Monk Auloria's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,941
    Raid leading can be exhausting. Don't be afraid to delegate checking logs to some of your officers. You should be familiar with the basics of everyone on your team, but having a couple of people look for specifics with classes you don't play will go a long way. In addition, each person should be analyzing their own performance.

    For loot, I've used EPGP before and really liked it. My current guild just has everyone /roll, but our members are really good about passing when someone else would greatly benefit, with an eye on what is holding us back progression-wise. If you have any loot drama queens at all that will not work.

    If your team hasn't raided in a while, they're going to make a lot of silly mistakes and probably already know that they need to sort those out, so I'd give them a few rounds before worrying about picking through logs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zdrasti View Post
    When a homeless person is rambling in the streets, it's better to ignore them than argue with them. On the internets it's clearly better to spend an entire week proving them wrong.

  16. #16
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    East Coast USA
    Posts
    3,390
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    1)

    Edit: Just saw Judgements poor excuse for a post above me. A raid is a team and you are the leader of that team. Theres different ways to lead and you need to know your people to know how to get the best out of them. If your team is full of hyperactive 11 year olds then his way may work. Otherwise I'd suggest a more mature approach based on circumstances. Creating an environment where the team address problems and give solutions is a good start (for instance "We need more dps on Sul" instead of "x was meterwhoring and hit Marlii!!!")
    Since you are starting the personal attacks early. Nowhere in my post was it mentioned that the group should not be allowed to provide possitive feedback nor solutions to ongoing problems.

    All that was stated was that in my opinion the leader needs to choose things and stick with them.

    If you wish wash about everything you will be miles behind every tier. I know these things from experience over the past eight years as a GM and raid leader.

    A) If you cater to loot whores you will always be three steps behind as you continually farm regs for their "needed" last piece of gear instead of pushing into harder content.

    B) If you allow players who bring any form of drama into your raid group they will swiftly infect the whole raid group with constant whispering and agitating in the background.

    C) If you buckle to a cry baby once you will continue to and to the detriment of your raid group.

    Again, I list all these things because they are what I have done in the past, well even in the recent, that tend to hold my raid group back BECAUSE I am to soft hearted for this.

    And mind you the offhand slander about maturity is comical considering that the chances I am twice your age are very high.


    Lawful good does not always mean Lawful nice

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Snip
    There is no reason for you to degrade down to personal insults as well.

    What you wrote in your initial reply was completely true. In order to build a proper raid group, you have to lay good foundations. This is the most important part about it.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    And mind you the offhand slander about maturity is comical considering that the chances I am twice your age are very high.
    I doubt it, that would make you a pensioner.

    You've been a guild and raid leader for 8 years yet this tier you've killed one heroic. Is that a case of mediocre management leading to mediocre performance?

  19. #19
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    East Coast USA
    Posts
    3,390
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    I doubt it, that would make you a pensioner.

    You've been a guild and raid leader for 8 years yet this tier you've killed one heroic. Is that a case of mediocre management leading to mediocre performance?
    actually I am not too long from retiring from the military as a senior nco. and you not only act like you are 12, but have one serious case of swelled e-muscles.


    Lawful good does not always mean Lawful nice

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by cszsolt3 View Post
    My questions to you would be:

    -Some basic guidelines on how I should check the performance of different classes in raids

    -What kind of loot distribution do you recommend for a guild that's made of 4-5 close friends and some additional people to fill the roster. What are the popular methods for these anyway? I haven't raided in heroic guilds since ruby sanctum

    -Could some of you check out most recent raid? We just got our first tot 10 group together , of course things are not going too smoothly yet, it will take a while until we actually get to clear HC content. Anyway, here is a log if any of you would be so kind to take the time to point out some obvious things that would be much much appreciated :
    (log also includes a mogushan clear which we did for our freshly dinged 90s, but the focus would be on TOT obviously)
    link:
    "WOL.COM" /reports/rt-5spn27779dxutp9a/ (sorry new user here)
    - As already said try to get basic knowledge on most of the classes and speccs, this will help with researching logs and with Loot Distribution.

    - We went with who get's the most out of it, while going for something like Dps>Tank>Heal for the most Content, but most of our raid already plays together for a few years so there is no rly "loot whoring" our whole system is based on getting the most out for progression so maybe this doesnt work for you.

    - First of, his Reforging and socketing isn't quite optimal for his actual gear and with the patch coming recommend him t ogo for Crit>Haste>Matsery as stat priority since hes going haste he probably read a guide but he probably didn't read it that
    attentive because you only wanted to go Haste>Crit>Mastery if got enough gear with rppm mechanic(i.e. Legendary Meta Gem, 2pc, 4pc, 2 trinkets from ToT(Bad Juju, Renatakis, Bloodlust Talisman(cannot recommend this trinket))). Also your hunters Kill Command usage is too Low while on the positive side his Glaive Toss Usage is at it's max, while on this Patch this isnt that much of an issue it will become with the coming buff's in 5.4, this will be a relatively big dps loss, Serpent Sting uptime is ok with 93% but could be a bit higher(aroung 97-98 %) is nearly the highest you will get. He is free to add me if he wants to anything( Redan#2547 but tell him to leave a note why hes adding me i tend to not accept requests with out a note.
    Last edited by Redanqt; 2013-09-09 at 06:32 AM. Reason: stuffs

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •