If the bear hp buff will change things...

[Viromand]

Yes we got alot of talent changes aswell but Incarnation will still be better on all two tank 1 boss fights. DoC will be a great talent on some fights, you will switch them alot in SoO.

Both talents are very depending on boss fights and they are buffs but not really to our survivability. NV and HotW will still be better on somefights.

[Whitepaw]

@Anubisck:

How can buffs to rage generation from 2 talents and the ability to cast big heals with instant cast Healing Touch NOT be a massive survivability boost? They give us more rage for all three rage-powered survivability abilities (Savage Defense, Frenzied Regen and Tooth and Claw) and on top of that, you can start to cast Healing Touch fairly often. I mean, they even feed off the the same secondary stat!

[Viromand]

Dont get me wrong maybe I didnt made it that clear what I meant.

SotF: I will most likely take this talent alot, but still in terms of dps incarnation is still a bit ahead in terms of rage gen it depends on how good you use your mangle but its very close.

Overall SotF is not a bit increase from prevous tiers cause we already had an ability to increase our rage gen in that tier.

DoC: This tier has always been a tier that was very good, you normally choose which one was better for each boss. And this will not change. If you need a dps increase at he start like durumu two tanks you choose HotW or if you need a big aoe heal like megaera. For fights like that you choose HotW, and you still gain a bit more stats aswell.

NV is for multiple adds fighs or stuff like that or if you need a heal for a longer period of time on everybody.

DoC is a talent on fights where you know that someone will take dmg ad you heal them, the part of using it for survivability is nice, but with FR and renewal you already have two off the gcd selfheals, and DoC will either be used on someone else. The crit buff to mangle is a buff to have something against the dps loss when you heal someone with HT.


Im not saying they arent buffs to our little bears, but they are more like a new choice buff. We are not gaining something huge for something we didnt have before like barkskin buff or stam buff. Im like them but they are not massive boosts to our survivability.

Small example: 2 fights one where you have two bosses and two tanks and one with one boss two tanks.

On the tankswapping incarnation will be better due to the increased dps and ragegen during the time you are tanking, on the other fight (unless there are dps gimmiks maybe) you just use SotF for constant ragegen. With this change they gave us a choice what to choose but overall the differences are rather minor.

[exochaft]

Well, after a busy night on live in SoO, it's almost silly how much EH we have right now at all times. Compared to where I was in ToT with a similar gear scaling, it's night and day in terms of survivability. Heroics next week will likely be the true test, but our naturally high EH at any given moment (as well as our avoidance-based AM) are very favorable, even with armor debuffs all around.

From what I've seen thus far, at least from my own perspective, I think DoC will end up being better in 10man environments (better meaning more useful) than 25man for various reasons. I haven't really formed a definitive opinion about SotF vs Incarnation, although I think encounters can be viewed as those that are good for Incarnation and those that either SotF/Inc would work. Regardless, every talent can find a use, and I'm definitely happy about that!

[Whitepaw]

@Anubisck

Idd, the changes to these talents make choices more meaningful.

I must admit that I haven't tanked since Cataclysm (I progression-tanked in WotLK and parts of Cataclysm) - I didn't like the gameplay implemented in MoP. But now, it just seems varied and more fun. I especially like the idea of tossing massive HT's around (or a Rebirth), while doing acceptable dps as well - all without breaking my bear form

It's elegant design, especially the DoC talent. We've come a long way from when we broke form in order to do anything other than using our form-specific abilities. Talk to quest giver? Go human form. Cast Nature's Grasp? Go human form. Drink potion? Go human form. Activate trinket? Go human form. All this made Feral (and Moonkin) extremely clunky, in the original (and non-inflated) sense of that expression. Also, being insta-gibbed when out of bear form was fairly common.

With these proc-based in-form casts, we begin to feel like true hybrids.