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  1. #1

    So how will Blizzard nerf next tier?

    Here's the deal. On T14 and T15 we didn't have any percentage nerf, however the content nerfed itself when they unlocked the item upgrades, not to mention the legendary gems/cloak that started coming in about 1-2 months into the tier. Let's face it, item upgrades and legendary gem/608 cloak is the biggest reason why more guilds are clearing ToT on HC than they did the in my opinion kinda easier T14 raids.


    However, on 5.4 we will:
    a) Get the legendary cloaks on the first week
    b) Be allowed to upgrade our gear from week one, which, if you stacked 3k valor is enough to fully upgrade 6 new items on week one

    So I see two possibilities here:
    a) The content will start nerfing itself way faster than ToT did since we'll have access to the new legendary/item upgrades straight away, making it too easy
    b) They are balancing the heroic bosses based on those item upgrades and legendaries, so they'll still be really challenging, and then on the long run the guilds that only recently cleared ToT on heroic will have a much, much harder time clearing the whole instance.


    Point I'm trying to make. If they don't decide to take the "just put a debuff that nerfs the bosses" approach this tier and just allow the instance to nerf itself like the previous 2 tiers, we could be looking at one that will rapidly become a lot easier than expected for the hardcore guilds. It's also bad for the more casual/slow to progress guilds since they'll run out of content faster.

    I'm quite confident that Blizzard has thought through this and has a solution, but I really enjoyed how challenging ToT was at the beginning of its launch and before everyone got the gem and cloaks etc. and I wouldn't really like to come to the next tier only to say "meh this was kinda easy". Not to mention that for those of us who raid with a competitive mindset, having an easier instance is no fun because it becomes more of "whoever raids more kills first" than "whoever is better kills first". Does anyone know if Blizzard has addressed this concern?


    Adding a TL/DR in an attempt to actually discuss what I had intended with this thread

    If Blizzard have in mind to allow the tier to be self nerfed by item upgrades and legendaries again, then we risk it becoming too accessible on HC too fast, which has a potential to ruin the competitive side of raiding, while also making the content last less. If they are balancing around everyone having +8 ilvl in most of their gear, then they either need to make a percentage nerf, or we could be looking at a tier very few guilds can clear.
    Last edited by Valaras; 2013-09-09 at 12:03 PM.

  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral WskyDK's Avatar
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    First, Who gives a shit how fast top guilds clear SoO? They're on a different level.
    Second, if you think having a cloak is going to make the tier significantly easier, you've got another thing coming.

    BTW the slower you go, the longer content lasts

  3. #3

  4. #4
    Bloodsail Admiral WskyDK's Avatar
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    Another thing, Blizzard doesn't balance the raids around the Methods and Paragons. They have an internal pacing that they want the tier to progress at (see the LFR release date blue post here recently)
    In regards to guilds recently clearing T15H the T16N gear is on par with it, so they'll be able to transition with little to no difficulty

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by makkk View Post
    Epic gems?
    Right here.

    5.5 will introduce epic gems.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by WskyDK View Post
    Another thing, Blizzard doesn't balance the raids around the Methods and Paragons. They have an internal pacing that they want the tier to progress at (see the LFR release date blue post here recently)
    In regards to guilds recently clearing T15H the T16N gear is on par with it, so they'll be able to transition with little to no difficulty
    I don't mention Method and Paragon even once in my thread so I see no reason for you to bring it up. Also you fail to understand my point completely, maybe I wasn't clear enough. What I meant to say is: A guild that has very recently cleared 13/13 HC (say around world 1000 in wowprogress ranks) most likely wouldn't have been able to achieve it without getting their meta gem/cloaks and upgrading all their gear twice. So if the intended system they have in mind to nerf the tier is item upgrades, then it'll mean that those 1000 guilds will be clearing SoO much faster than they did ToT. If they do not intend to use item upgrades and legendaries as nerfs, then they risk many guilds not having a chance in that instance unless they percentage nerf it.

    In regards to epic gems, I wasn't even aware of the fact that they will bring them out, but if they are as powerful as the Dragon Soul patch ones were compared to the rare ones, I don't think it'll make much of a difference.

    As a side note, Blizzard does also try to balance around world first guilds, they want to make sure the bosses will not be mathematically impossible to kill with the very little gear those guilds have on the first couple of weeks. That's why you don't generally see top guilds taking weeks on end to kill only one boss anymore (and when they do they come and say it wasn't because of gear) just because they didn't have the gear for it (like Rag HC).
    Last edited by Valaras; 2013-09-09 at 04:00 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Shuttle View Post
    Right here.

    5.5 will introduce epic gems.
    If they'd introduce epic gems it won't have that big of an impact as other things mentioned. At least if they'd continue along the lines of previous epic gems - aka 25% extra - making them 400 secondaries or 200 primaries. Assuming 20 gem slots, that's 1600 secondaries or 800 primaries extra possible when fully epic gemmed. That's equivalent to a 5 or so items upgraded through valor? Not saying it wouldn't be a nice bit of extra, but nothing compared to legendary meta, legendary cloak or valor upgrading (or just plain out nerfs).

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  8. #8
    Bloodsail Admiral WskyDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valaras View Post
    A guild that has very recently cleared 13/13 HC (say around world 1000 in wowprogress ranks) most likely wouldn't have been able to achieve it without getting their meta gem/cloaks and upgrading all their gear twice.


    As a side note, Blizzard does also try to balance around world first guilds, they want to make sure the bosses will not be mathematically impossible to kill with the very little gear those guilds have on the first couple of weeks. That's why you don't generally see top guilds taking weeks on end to kill only one boss anymore (and when they do they come and say it wasn't because of gear) just because they didn't have the gear for it (like Rag HC).
    To the first point, you're going to need to back this up, else you're talking out your ass. There are plenty of guilds who clear it without their metas/cloaks. Saying they only cleared it is ignorant.

    To the second point, I'll concede they balance raids around the TOP END of the spectrum, based on the top guilds. But you weren't talking about the top end of the spectrum, you were talking mid to lower end, which they most certainly do not balance around the world first guilds.

    FYI Item upgrades were introduced in 5.1 during t14. You can argue all you want, but the reason there were less people clearing t14HM is likely due to the fact that it's more difficult to progress in a raid tier where all your previous gear was dungeon gear; than it is to enter a raid in full raid gear.
    Last edited by WskyDK; 2013-09-09 at 04:21 AM.

  9. #9
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shuttle View Post
    Right here. 5.5 will introduce epic gems.
    Epic gems have been in Cataclysm and probably will still be wildly unpopular. I don't see the concept coming back anytime soon.

  10. #10
    I'm very confused as to why people are already worrying how blizzard will nerf next tier when it is NOT even released yet. Blizzard will adjust the difficulty when they feel it is necessary.

    Until then, enjoy the raid tier and try your best to down as many bosses as you can.
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  11. #11
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    The legendary is a big factor, and item upgrades are sorely under-spoken as a form of content nerfing.

    Ultimately, between TF and item upgrades there's what would have been an additional tier worth of gear added to each tier.

    Consider t11 to t12 , gear went from 372 to 391, 19 ilevel difference. Now a 535 item can go as a high as 549, 14 ilevel more and it's from the same tier.

    This has a huge impact on the state of content. I can't speak on behalf of guilds that only recently cleared. But our split raids do Dumuru in around 3 minutes (a fight that initially went right to it's 10 minute enrage), as do most top guilds in the world.

    I'm not saying the ilevel additions are a 60% nerf or some shit. I am saying they can be far more potent than a mere 20% flat nerf.

    This is why I feel it's not likely we'll see any artifical nerfs. valor upgrades do a better job of the same task. It's more organic, as players experience it at their own rate. So a guild that could clear at a 5% nerf isn't stuck doing either 20 or 0%.

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  12. #12
    There has not been much talk about it yet compared to talks for DS with some responses towards the likes of flex and not needing it. I expect if there is then it will be a nerf like DS and likely not as large as the one for DS which made normal easier than LFR. The gear upgrade factor is a new one and something that the lead raid developer had been talking about as a more preferable method of content nerfing compared to flat nerfs. The question becomes how long will the gear grind really keep players and will the next expansion be fast enough around the corner.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Shuttle View Post
    Right here.

    5.5 will introduce epic gems.
    Pretty sure this is the last patch of the expac besides the getting ready for 6.0 to drop patch. Also cant find it off hand but i am almost 100% sure ive seen a blue post saying blue level gems is all the more we are getting. There wont be any epic gems this expac.

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WskyDK View Post
    First, Who gives a shit how fast top guilds clear SoO? They're on a different level.
    Second, if you think having a cloak is going to make the tier significantly easier, you've got another thing coming.

    BTW the slower you go, the longer content lasts
    agree. it takes a hell of a lot of gear to make up for poor game play.





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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Epic gems have been in Cataclysm and probably will still be wildly unpopular. I don't see the concept coming back anytime soon.
    Epic gems were also in BC and WotLK, why would they being in Cata be the permanent deal-breaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by zazuch View Post
    Pretty sure this is the last patch of the expac besides the getting ready for 6.0 to drop patch. Also cant find it off hand but i am almost 100% sure ive seen a blue post saying blue level gems is all the more we are getting. There wont be any epic gems this expac.
    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...02119971217408

    Ghostcrawler was asked if Epic Pandarian gems were happening or not, and his reply was "Not happening for 5.4", and was not "Not happening this expansion".

    Also, Dave Kosak makes mention of a future patch after 5.4 "but before next expansion", which will make some changes to Orgrimmar. https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/357545921338281985

    Both of those together point to something after 5.4 that isn't just the 6.0 pre-expansion patch.

    Edit: http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/08/...craft-patch-54 - Chilton specifically says that, while 5.4 is MoP's final raid tier, there will be another content patch to bridge the storyline. Not just a patch 6.0 to implement next-expansion mechanics, but an actual content patch.
    Last edited by Khime; 2013-09-09 at 06:46 AM.

  16. #16
    I'm pretty sure SoO will feature the same % nerf every end expansion tier had.

  17. #17
    As with the last 2 tiers I'm fairly confident there will be minor nerfs in the first couple months to individual mechanics followed by a blanket 10/20% nerf when the 6.0 pre-patch comes out.
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  18. #18
    They'd be stupid to introduce a straight percentage nerf to SoO when it is current since they have managed nerfs so well this expansion in the form of adding player power. There's a reason all those heated debates about the DS nerfs back in Cata aren't happening anymore. It doesn't feel as cheap, and I bet most people don't even realize that the LMG, Legendary cloak, and valor upgrades are a way for Blizzard to nerf content.

    The only mistake they made was giving a percentage nerf to T14 when ToT came out, but it isn't as big of a deal because it is old content. I don't mind if people get to see the old content. Hell, I still haven't cleared T14 because I can't be bothered to at this point, and I have a 548 item level. It just feels cheap when they add the percentage nerf, when gear from the next tier of normal modes is more than enough. Even having full valor gear with some LFR ToT gear would be enough to clear heroic T14 if people really wanted it. If not, then certainly with SoO LFR/Flex gear.

    With Flex items beating out heroic ToT items by 5 item levels, I hope that Blizzard considers this enough and doesn't percentage nerf ToT. I can't recall any mention of this, but I may have just missed it.
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  19. #19
    Depends how fast people clear it.

    I imagine if they feel it's necessary they'll release another stacking debuff. Might not be, they were previously of the opinion that VP upgrades effectively achieved the same goal.
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  20. #20
    Either people arent reading the OP or Im misunderstanding him/her, but noone is arguing that VP-upgrades/legendary isnt a massive nerf to the content. The problem is that everyone will have ALL their gear upgraded and everyone (that currently has the 608 cloak) will have their legendary cloak as they attempt the content for the first time. For most people, barring the extremely lucky, starting with a few thousand VP and then earning 1k per week is more than enough to keep up with upgrading any gear you might get.

    As stated, VP/legendary will nerf content by a lot, but unlike previous tiers T16 will start 'nerfed'. So the question is whether or not they'll balance around a presumed ilvl of *average-joe-ilvl+8*

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