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  1. #61
    Atm i have still 2t14 - with legendary meta and cloak mastery is still significantly above haste and criot for me. As soon as i get 2t16 i assume everything will change.

  2. #62
    Just thought i'd give me view of the specs here, i cleared 14/14 normal and personally prefer the way Assassination plays but had combat ready if i felt the need for it.

    In terms of pure rogue dps i thought the buffs to maximize damage when you have good uptime on the boss was very helpful, meant if we played right me and the DK in the raid would be 1+2 more often than not (looked weird). However to be more specific with mechanics, i felt Assassination performed pretty strongly on all bosses except 1 or 2 only.

    Fallen Protectors i felt like Assassination was ideal because we had 2 mages a lock and a boomkin tweaking down their HP with multi-dots already so the cleave from mr seemed wasted, i had good damage single for all transitions and i think that was the best for my raid group at least.

    Spoils although probably the most friendly combat i didn't like how fast the adds died and stayed Assassination as i just got poisons rolling and it was quite useful, didn't feel the need to go combat ever although it may change on HC.

    Garrosh i killed last night and tried both specs quite a lot, the problem i had may have been more towards my own raid but no matter what spec i was, the adds wasn't alive long enough for my aoe/cleave to be super effective. The opening i usually got 800-900k due to CD's during aoe as Combat but dropped off as they died in 3-4 seconds, the rest of the fight combat was ok but apart from the first phase just felt a little unneeded as i was gemmed/reforged for Ass and preferred that spec. Assassination i felt very weak on the adds at the start, and having two mages meant it was semi-rng how fast they died, dps varies a lot pull to pull depending on how much time you get on the adds.

    However Assassination is very stable damage throughout the entire of Garrosh, and is extremely good at killing MC's and adds. The new redirect glyph means MC's die alone to 1 evenom from me, although likely to change on HC as of right now it's very useful and was my preferred spec, but if you ever have add damage combat would be the way to go and was quite close in terms of single. I have a kill vid of Garrosh if anyone wants to see how rogue did, although not my pov so would purely be for dps/seeing how much running around you have to do

    Sorry if the post was a bit long, but i feel like rogues are in quite a nice spot at the moment, i got no items at all compared to some members gaining 10ilvl and still was very competitive/top depending on the boss, and swapping specs didn't seem to hinder me, which is a very nice option to have. (my combat side of things may be biased, i was always reforged/gemmed for Assass and only swapped 1 item when switching specs)
    Last edited by Hamhead223; 2013-09-13 at 09:43 AM.

  3. #63
    Dreadlord Vanthem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamhead223 View Post
    Just thought i'd give me view of the specs here, i cleared 14/14 normal and personally prefer the way Assassination plays but had combat ready if i felt the need for it.

    In terms of pure rogue dps i thought the buffs to maximize damage when you have good uptime on the boss was very helpful, meant if we played right me and the DK in the raid would be 1+2 more often than not (looked weird). However to be more specific with mechanics, i felt Assassination performed pretty strongly on all bosses except 1 or 2 only.

    Fallen Protectors i felt like Assassination was ideal because we had 2 mages a lock and a boomkin tweaking down their HP with multi-dots already so the cleave from mr seemed wasted, i had good damage single for all transitions and i think that was the best for my raid group at least.

    Spoils although probably the most friendly combat i didn't like how fast the adds died and stayed Assassination as i just got poisons rolling and it was quite useful, didn't feel the need to go combat ever although it may change on HC.

    Garrosh i killed last night and tried both specs quite a lot, the problem i had may have been more towards my own raid but no matter what spec i was, the adds wasn't alive long enough for my aoe/cleave to be super effective. The opening i usually got 800-900k due to CD's during aoe as Combat but dropped off as they died in 3-4 seconds, the rest of the fight combat was ok but apart from the first phase just felt a little unneeded as i was gemmed/reforged for Ass and preferred that spec. Assassination i felt very weak on the adds at the start, and having two mages meant it was semi-rng how fast they died, dps varies a lot pull to pull depending on how much time you get on the adds.

    However Assassination is very stable damage throughout the entire of Garrosh, and is extremely good at killing MC's and adds. The new redirect glyph means MC's die alone to 1 evenom from me, although likely to change on HC as of right now it's very useful and was my preferred spec, but if you ever have add damage combat would be the way to go and was quite close in terms of single. I have a kill vid of Garrosh if anyone wants to see how rogue did, although not my pov so would purely be for dps/seeing how much running around you have to do

    Sorry if the post was a bit long, but i feel like rogues are in quite a nice spot at the moment, i got no items at all compared to some members gaining 10ilvl and still was very competitive/top depending on the boss, and swapping specs didn't seem to hinder me, which is a very nice option to have. (my combat side of things may be biased, i was always reforged/gemmed for Assass and only swapped 1 item when switching specs)
    Also do not forget that Combat is not up to par with Mutilate until you get your hands on AoC.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanthem View Post
    Also do not forget that Combat is not up to par with Mutilate until you get your hands on AoC.
    I'm simming equal to my assassination setup with a normal mode bad juju and a 543 renetaki, sooo

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by SinisterAUS View Post
    I'm simming equal to my assassination setup with a normal mode bad juju and a 543 renetaki, sooo
    Unless you're using Simulationcraft, it's been told about a thousad times not to use Shadowcraft as a compare tool between specs but rather as a compare of pieces in the same spec.
    Fluorescent - Fluo - currently retired, playing other stuff

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  6. #66
    Hi all!
    I've been reading the forum since 2008, but this is my first post =)

    I'm raiding SoO 10m and I don't know if I should stay Ass or go combat. Since the whole core but me have the legendary cloak, my dps is kinda low comparing to the others, anyway I got both Norushen's Shortblade and Softfoot's Last Resort (553), my other dagger is the Spiritever H (509). So, any advice if I should use both weapons from SoO and go Combat or stay Ass with the Spiritever H on the OH? My dps is sucking as Assa on Galakras (would be be better if I go Combat on this fight even if reforged/gemmed for Mastery?)


    My armory: Dewke at Azralon-US


    tks!!!
    Last edited by Dukke; 2013-09-13 at 05:19 PM. Reason: armory

  7. #67
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    Atm I've been playing Assassination since MoP launch, so I'm kinda looking into transitioning into Combat. I got the AoC flex trinket, which is a step in the right direction, however I'd probably want a new mainhand before making the transition after all. But as of now, I'm kinda stuck in Assassination. Not going to see T16 4p (or maybe even 2p) for a while though since we're prioritizing ranged (mages and boomkins go to hell :P ) over melee due to how ranged is going to be superior as always

    TL;DR.
    Assassination atm, want to go Combat, probably need a new MH for it first though.

  8. #68
    Now that WoL went up I spent some time going through the logs to see how Rogues are doing fights. Looks like, overall, there aren't a ton of fights where Rogues are going to be padding with FoK like on Primordius, Tortos, Horridon, etc. There are definitely add fights, but it doesn't seem to be as consistent throughout the encounters (Horridon and Tortos are nonstop adds). Dark Shaman allows for a lot of double-dotting for Warlocks, but most of the fights seem to be a lot of "kill the damn boss." Rogues seem to be doing well overall. I was close to the top on the fights I went in for, would be nice to see what happens if I ever actually get some items. I know I beat our feral, windwalker, fury and enhancement players despite being quite a bit behind gear-wise. I couldn't really tell how much of that's because these encounters are better suited for single-targetting as a rogue, or because of the buffs, but I was largely behind them in ToT.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cotech View Post
    Atm I've been playing Assassination since MoP launch, so I'm kinda looking into transitioning into Combat. I got the AoC flex trinket, which is a step in the right direction, however I'd probably want a new mainhand before making the transition after all. But as of now, I'm kinda stuck in Assassination. Not going to see T16 4p (or maybe even 2p) for a while though since we're prioritizing ranged (mages and boomkins go to hell :P ) over melee due to how ranged is going to be superior as always

    TL;DR.
    Assassination atm, want to go Combat, probably need a new MH for it first though.
    My guild chose to give a DK his gloves for 1piece instead of letting me get my 2set bonus, did they give a reason? Looking through WoL, moonkins and mages really aren't dominant enough to warrant passing over Rogues for set gear. In fact, it looks like Rogues are beating out mages and moonkins overall, losing only to multidotters that can pad.

  9. #69
    Dreadlord Themerlin's Avatar
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    So far my unsub spec has worked pretty well for me for my Deathknight, Warrior, and Druid.

    I feel it will remain strong untill the next expansion arises, and even then...all depends on the game.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    My guild chose to give a DK his gloves for 1piece instead of letting me get my 2set bonus, did they give a reason? Looking through WoL, moonkins and mages really aren't dominant enough to warrant passing over Rogues for set gear. In fact, it looks like Rogues are beating out mages and moonkins overall, losing only to multidotters that can pad.
    Yeah in 25 man I can see it being fine, I'm playing in 10 man temporarily so ranged vs melee feels even more skewed than in 25 man. Although it felt way worse on PTR.

  11. #71
    I'm in 25man and typically one of the top5 on the meters, but my guild "brings rogues for survivability, not damage". Was top 5 on the fights I was in for, but whatever. It's just obnoxious to get passed over for every piece of gear and then get criticized on performance.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    I'm in 25man and typically one of the top5 on the meters, but my guild "brings rogues for survivability, not damage". Was top 5 on the fights I was in for, but whatever. It's just obnoxious to get passed over for every piece of gear and then get criticized on performance.
    Yep I feel the same way, I'm the only vanq user without any tierpieces while everyone else has atleast 2 piece etc. If I fall behind on dps due to being outgeared it's not my fault. Hopefully it won't come to that though

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Cotech View Post
    Yep I feel the same way, I'm the only vanq user without any tierpieces while everyone else has atleast 2 piece etc. If I fall behind on dps due to being outgeared it's not my fault. Hopefully it won't come to that though
    Hopefully I coin one on Thok this weekend. It would make more sense if we were competing for 2pc bonuses, but I've already got a piece >_<

  14. #74
    I'm playing full combat for several reasons:

    Firstly, I've passed on every token piece which for progression is a very fortunate thing for a raid team. If I was mut, I would be screaming for the 2 piece. I can't stress the importance of this when doing heroic progression, better teammates, more saved vp. Everyone wins.

    Secondly, the damage is roughly equal. Looking at world of log passes shows very little information at the moment, the sample size is horrific and most people steer away from combat until they obtain the trinket. Thankfully I own a normal AOC and the damage output is comparable with other mut rogues in my raid (whom are talented players).

    Thirdly, when the time comes that adds enter the equation you will roflstomp the other rogues in terms of dmg. I'm currently outperforming ele shamans on groups of adds with the AOC and cleave trinket and adds have always been a priority in most situations.

    My advice will most likely go unheeded as the amount of people who flock to the easier class over one that is "complex" is ridiculous.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    Thirdly, when the time comes that adds enter the equation you will roflstomp the other rogues in terms of dmg.
    It really depends on how the adds are laid out. Spoils of Pandaria, for example, is great for Assassination, despite being all about adds. There are very few large adds for combat rogues to train, while assassination is able to multidot with Rupture for massive damage and energy returns.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    It really depends on how the adds are laid out. Spoils of Pandaria, for example, is great for Assassination, despite being all about adds. There are very few large adds for combat rogues to train, while assassination is able to multidot with Rupture for massive damage and energy returns.
    Not sure which strategy you took, but the small adds died within 5s or so, completely pointless to even try and rupture tab those. The medium and large ones have a decent enough health pool that you can rupture tab them but you dont tend to release more than 1-2 at a time anyway. In any of these scenarios combat has ample opportunity to cleave stuff and it's cleave doesn't suffer the downsides of mut's multidotting.

    Fights like galakras or garrosh are just ridiculous for combat.

  17. #77
    Why would you do Garrosh as combat over Assa? Cleaving is actually useful only in the first phase, and you shouldn't even do it anyway but leave it to the passive cleavers since maximizing single tar dps (= having less adds spawns) is the most important thing to do. After P1 nothing is cleaveable (better aoe for p2 realms, the only useful thing to cleave would be MCd people, but that lasts 5s anyway so gg). On the other hand, you need to deal the most single target dmg possible in P3, on execute.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Dryaan View Post
    Why would you do Garrosh as combat over Assa? Cleaving is actually useful only in the first phase, and you shouldn't even do it anyway but leave it to the passive cleavers since maximizing single tar dps (= having less adds spawns) is the most important thing to do. After P1 nothing is cleaveable (better aoe for p2 realms, the only useful thing to cleave would be MCd people, but that lasts 5s anyway so gg). On the other hand, you need to deal the most single target dmg possible in P3, on execute.
    What in the world is "passive cleaving", very few specs aoe passively howling blast, and arcane's finisher, maybe brewmaster at a stretch, or for a smallish single target dps decrease combat? Are you suggesting that everyone dps' the boss and leaves the wolf riders to "passive means" and wonder why its casting chain heal like thok's aoe?
    Last edited by theherecy; 2013-09-14 at 11:53 AM.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    What in the world is "passive cleaving", very few specs aoe passively howling blast, and arcane's finisher, maybe brewmaster at a stretch, or for a smallish single target dps decrease combat? Are you suggesting that everyone dps' the boss and leaves the wolf riders to "passive means" and wonder why its casting chain heal like thok's aoe?
    Several specs have either passive or lower-cost AoE - Affliction loses ~25% of its single target to never use MG and go full-time on dotting, Demonology loses 0 to have enemies walk into Hand of Guldan range (generate more fury, even). Shadow priests see almost a net 0 effect (for single target) for attacking a second target. Assassination loses surprisingly little damage to apply dots to a second target. Ele shaman have absurd cleave that, last time I checked, didn't hurt their single target (more fulmination). Ferals thrash for single target which AoEs. Frost DKs and Unholy DKs both have either free or very low cost effective AoE. I'm sure there are many more that don't come to mind at the moment

    This falls off as # of enemies increase for assassination and Spriests, but it's still more effective to ask other classes to take care of the AoE if you can. If you need more add damage, you need more add damage, as always.

  20. #80
    I believe dyraan was referring to specs that literally lose no damage in passive cleaving, which I can only think of a few specs, mages, dks and brewmaster somewhat. Though most specs have good aoe at a smallish cost of single target dps.

    Unless you have an abundance of dks and arcane/fire mages (which to be fair his guild probably do) who can cleave the shit out of the wolf rider, then you will almost certainly need classes that can perform large damage to the mob whilst still dpsing other adds down. Bearing in mind this mob has about 35m health, there is no way that passive dps are going to kill this high priority target.

    Blade flurry costs a 13% decrease in single target damage according to Shadowcraft but yeilds a 93% increase in add damage. So in my eyes, combat would be the most likely candidate to burn the add down whilst providing strong throughput to the other adds which will surely prove problematic soon.

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