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  1. #81
    I'm gonna try Justmonk's build when we raid again this reset.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...tmonk/advanced

    He was 4th on Heroic Thok so I guess he must be doing some things right.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    There's no reason to line them up with trinket procs in this tier unless you're doing PVP at the time. Having higher +damage during an AP spike isn't necessarily any better than using it whenever you don't have a massive AP spike from a proc
    Not true at all. Consider a 15 second window with two different scenarios:

    1) 30k Agility, doing about 200k DPS (made-up numbers for the purpose of illustration). In this scenario, a 10 stack TEB for 15 seconds is worth (0.6 x 200,000 x 15) 1.8 million damage.

    2) 40k Agility with trinket proc! Doing about 250k DPS (25% increase, from 33% increase in Agility, whatever) for 10 seconds and then back down to 200k for 5 seconds. Using TEB in this 15 second window is worth [(0.6 x 250,000 x 10) + (0.6 x 200,000 x 5)] 2.1 million damage.

    We can see here that using TEB during a period of higher than average DPS is worth more damage than using it during a period of lower DPS. It's a mathematical fact, there's really no getting around it.


    On the topic of Chi Brew vs Ascension, I made some points here about it.

    It's worth noting that, while comparing DPS with each other is somewhat pointless because we all have wildly differing gear right now (I'm rocking 552 ilvl with heroic ToT trinkets and a 574 2H, while guys like Pattinson have 560+ with Haromm's and/or TED already), it's become clear that using the right talent for the right fights isn't as important as people make it out to be. Here I am doing top DPS on a zerg heroic Norushen kill with Ascension even over a rogue with 558 ilvl that routinely out-dpses me under normal circumstances (I think I cheesed TEB a bit on Norushen to make sure to use it all before 50% when corruption inevitably gets higher), and then being silly with RJW and Ascension on normal Dark Shamans, when most people are saying to run Chi Brew all the time. I contest that the difference between Chi Brew and Ascension at this gear level is negligible, and that I actually do more DPS with Ascension than I do with Chi Brew because it's easier to use and I'm not perfect. It's somewhat like Fists of Fury in T14, if you can use it perfectly, great, but there is a potential to screw it up and turn it into a DPS loss instead of a gain.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Not true at all. Consider a 15 second window with two different scenarios:

    1) 30k Agility, doing about 200k DPS (made-up numbers for the purpose of illustration). In this scenario, a 10 stack TEB for 15 seconds is worth (0.6 x 200,000 x 15) 1.8 million damage.

    2) 40k Agility with trinket proc! Doing about 250k DPS (25% increase, from 33% increase in Agility, whatever) for 10 seconds and then back down to 200k for 5 seconds. Using TEB in this 15 second window is worth [(0.6 x 250,000 x 10) + (0.6 x 200,000 x 5)] 2.1 million damage.

    We can see here that using TEB during a period of higher than average DPS is worth more damage than using it during a period of lower DPS. It's a mathematical fact, there's really no getting around it.
    All you've shown here is that in an any given 15 second window having a trinket proc is better than not having one. As a counter example, consider 2 back-to-back 15 second intervals and 14 TEB stacks available to use:

    1) we follow your priority, so we sit on the stacks for 15 seconds doing 200k dps, then in the next 15 seconds we get a trinket proc, use a 10-stack TEB and get 2.1 mil extra damage and have 4 stacks left over for the next trinket proc.

    2) we blanket the 30 second window with two 7-stack TEBs; the first 15 seconds give us 0.42 x 200000 x 15 = 1.26 mil extra damage; the following 15 second window gives us 0.42 x 250000 x 10 + 0.42 x 200000 x 5 = 1.05 mil + 0.42 mil = 1.47 mil damage. The total over 30 seconds is 2.73 million extra damage, which is more than we had in example 1.

    The greater point here is that we generally care about long-term average dps rather than a narrow-window dps (unless it's a Burning Tendon scenario). As the length of time we're discussing changes, so will the optimal TEB usage, but over the course of the fight blanketing vs waiting for procs will, on average, give the same results.

  4. #84
    Exactly this ^

    My point was more that unless you are running 2x independant proccing trinkets that can stack. e.g. juju/renataki etc. Chi brew is just not as effective in the long run. Yes you will get higher numbers for 10seconds or so, but your overall will be lower. And since in full SoO normal gear, let alont heroic, monks look totally F*&$ed due to the fact that we can basically get haste capped, mastery capped (to the point where you are using 10 stacks on cd, which looks to be about 55%ish), and due to the nature of being Agi users crit softcapping at 60% seems to make us a bit redundant to bring to raids anyway come hc progress (not even going to bother mentioning we still have zero raid cds etc)

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbleosvn View Post
    Exactly this ^

    My point was more that unless you are running 2x independant proccing trinkets that can stack. e.g. juju/renataki etc. Chi brew is just not as effective in the long run. Yes you will get higher numbers for 10seconds or so, but your overall will be lower. And since in full SoO normal gear, let alont heroic, monks look totally F*&$ed due to the fact that we can basically get haste capped, mastery capped (to the point where you are using 10 stacks on cd, which looks to be about 55%ish), and due to the nature of being Agi users crit softcapping at 60% seems to make us a bit redundant to bring to raids anyway come hc progress (not even going to bother mentioning we still have zero raid cds etc)
    Have you even stepped into hc raiding this tier?

    Don't know why everyone is so down on WWs. Just feels like you guys look at the math and see issues, but don't actually bother playing the class. We are absolutely fine this tier, in terms of 25man. 10man I know is a bigger issue due to raid CDs.
    Last edited by pattison; 2013-09-21 at 02:22 PM.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbleosvn View Post
    Exactly this ^

    and due to the nature of being Agi users crit softcapping at 60% seems to make us a bit redundant to bring to raids anyway come hc progress (not even going to bother mentioning we still have zero raid cds etc)
    what? this is the first week of heroic progression meaning there has been no "lets take this guy in for farm because we can" but yet Pattison is 11/13 HM Justmonk is 10/13 HM Snarfysnarf is 8/14 HM I'm 7/14 HM and I'm sure there are many other high progressed Windwalkers.

    we all have been in for the vast majority of heroic progression. Windwalker is possibly in the best state its been in since MoP release.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Crevan View Post
    1) we follow your priority, so we sit on the stacks for 15 seconds doing 200k dps, then in the next 15 seconds we get a trinket proc, use a 10-stack TEB and get 2.1 mil extra damage and have 4 stacks left over for the next trinket proc.
    Wow, there's some serious cognitive dissonance going on here. You're completely ignoring the extra 4 TEB stacks in the first example for the sake of "proving" yourself right. Of course you'll end up with more damage from TEB if you're using more stacks. I don't know why something that should be common sense that literally every Windwalker agreed with in T14 and can be proven with the most basic examples is now being challenged with completely illogical arguments, but it's really not helping anyone.

  8. #88
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    I think you completely missed the point. Wouldn't be the first time. Calling my example illogical after basically stating that "trinket procs give you more damage" is kinda rich.

  9. #89
    I don't understand what's so complicated about a multiplicative damage increase being worth more damage with a higher base, this is like the absolute basic mathematical level required to do any kind of theorycrafting whatsoever. It's why we use potions with cooldowns. It's why we use cooldowns during Bloodlust. It's why we use Bloodlust at the start of the fight rather than some random other time. Literally everything any DPS spec in the game does regarding cooldowns, potions, and procs is based off this principle.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbleosvn View Post
    re. FoF, you say you have low latency yet if i am understanding correctly you say you aren't using FoF??? one of the great, if not the best, benefit of having the bonus chi-pool from Ascension is that you can use FoF to much more affect. Since you should only be using FoF when you are energy starved anyway, it makes it the perfect 'filler' due to being able to rinse your energy out by doing 2 jabs then using FoF to wait for energy to come back again. Especially when you start to look at our 2set bonus and the fact that it requires you to actually 'jab' not to chi brew in order to proc the passive. Honesly dont know why anyone would take CB above ilvl 530ish, unless as you said they are playing on maybe 300+ ms
    I dunno where you read that I don't use FoF. Of course I use it. Although you can't use it as often as you can and want with lower haste (I'm running with 9k haste)
    Relying on FoF to prevent energy starvation is in my eyes not good at all. There is no way you can fully predict how your energy flow will be in a fight and hence how often you can use FoF. There is way too much movement for it to be reliable.

    Even if you DO factor in that you can use FoF safely, the haste you can drop for it doesn't result in such a DPS increase that it feels worth it. Especially since lower haste is far worse for AoE fights as well.

    Doing quite ok with Ascension, high haste and little FoF usage, and especially no stinking AoC trinket Not a good rank in this, but I'm still pretty sure the majority of people above me are better geared. I was 543 then.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/v...?s=8816&e=9123
    Last edited by Clonan; 2013-09-21 at 08:34 PM.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    I don't understand what's so complicated about a multiplicative damage increase being worth more damage with a higher base, this is like the absolute basic mathematical level required to do any kind of theorycrafting whatsoever. It's why we use potions with cooldowns. It's why we use cooldowns during Bloodlust. It's why we use Bloodlust at the start of the fight rather than some random other time. Literally everything any DPS spec in the game does regarding cooldowns, potions, and procs is based off this principle.
    And again you go off on a completely unrelated tangent and miss the point entirely. No one's arguing that stacking cooldowns gives you better results for their duration. Your whole argument consists of the statement that TEB + trinket proc is more damage that TEB + no trinket proc, which is common sense and doesn't need to be laid out as some grand theory.

    But boss encounters are more than just 15 seconds of TEB and involve more factors than trinkets alone. When averaged, there's little difference between only using TEB at 10 stacks, waiting for trinkets or blanketing everything (including dancing steel procs, every RSK, FoF, add burn and whatever else there might be) with however many stacks you have, provided you use the same number of stacks in the fight (not in the 15/30 second window you're complaining about). But understanding that requires slightly more than absolute basic mathematical level, so I won't blame you for not getting it.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Crevan View Post
    over the course of the fight blanketing vs waiting for procs will, on average, give the same results.
    This is the part that is completely 100% absolutely always false. Whether you want to make the distinction between how important optimal TEB usage is over just blanketing is one thing, but the claim that it will on average be the same is just plain wrong.

  13. #93
    How exactly are people using TEB stacks w/o the RoO trinket this time around.

    Have you guys just been using TEB at 10 stacks period. Or do you use TEB during trinket procs even if you're below 10 stacks?

    If it's RED then it's DEAD

  14. #94
    Assume your dps is x
    Assume your dps while under the effect of a proc is x + 1000
    Assume you're under the effect of this proc 10% of the fight
    Let T be time in seconds of fight

    Calculate the Average Damage Increase from our proc:
    damage done = time in seconds of fight(T) * (.9x + .1(x+1000))
    damage done = T * (.9x + .1x + 100)
    damage per second is then simply x + 100

    Now let's assume that we get a +60% boost that can be used for 50% of the fight time in the fight.
    If it was averaged then our equation for damage done would be
    damage done = [T * (x+100)] / 2 + 1.6[T * (x+100)]/2
    damage done = .5Tx + 50T + .8Tx + 80T
    damage done = 1.3Tx + 130T
    damage done = T * (1.3x + 130)
    As expected a 60% increase used for half of the fight averaged to be a 30% increase.

    Now let's assume that same +60% boost is used for 50% of the fight, but we use it throughout all 10% that the proc is up:
    To make this equation simple for people to follow we'll break the fight up into 10 parts.
    First, the damage done without proc = T * x * (10/10), the (10/10) represents all 10 parts of the fight
    calculate in the proc, damage done = [T * x * 9/10] + [T * (x + 1000) * 1/10]
    calculate in +60% for 5 out of 10 parts, 1 of those 5 parts includes the 10% of the fight under which our proc was active
    damage done is now split into 3 parts
    the 5 parts with no proc and no +60% = T * x * (5/10)
    the 4 parts with no proc but with +60% = T * 1.6x * (4/10)
    the 1 part with proc and +60% = T * 1.6(x + 1000) * (1/10)

    We have to add all 3 equations to get the results. Before doing so I will say that if it doesn't matter when we use the 10 stacks, then we'd expect to see the same result of T * (1.3x + 130). If on the other hand, using the boost in a manner that includes as much uptime during a proc as possible then we'd expect a result > T * (1.3x + 130)

    [T * x * 5/10] + [T * 1.6x * 4/10] + [T * 1.6 * (x + 1000) * 1/10] = .5Tx + .64Tx + .16Tx + 160T
    .5Tx + .64Tx + .16Tx + 160T = T * (.5x + .64x + .16x + 160) = T * (1.3x + 160)

    1.3x + 160 > 1.3x + 130

    Why the confusion? I suspect it has to do with a different question, namely "does it matter if I spend TEB at 10 stacks or can I just spend it whenever"? If we had no procs, then you could spend TEB at 10 stacks or every 15 seconds, it wouldn't matter because THAT would average out in the long run. That would result in periods of time doing 1.6x with longer periods of time doing 1x versus more frequent periods of doing say 1.3x or 1.24x or 1.42x and shorter periods of doing 1x. However, we have procs that add some increased damage and we want to make sure that damage increase is provided the multiplicative bonus of TEB as often as possible.

  15. #95
    So was looking through the EJ thread on WW this patch and I know dual wield is better, but it was saying if you have a 2H that was 10+ ilvls higher than the dual wield to use it, but is that the average of the two dual wield ilvls or main hand ilvl or what?

    Because I've got the normal staff off of Immerseus upgraded (561) and a 543 main hand and 535 offhand currently just from bonus rolls and loot no one needed way back in ToT. Should I just use the 2H or what? I'm using valor on my main spec so don't want to waste any for my offspec that I'll rarely, if ever use.

    And for Fists of Fury, I'm still a bit unsure about when to actually use that ability.

  16. #96
    FoF should be used only when you dont have RSK available in the next 2 globals and have no 'free' BoK proc available and are at less than 30 energy. Or when you have a large + haste proc, such as 4 stacks from the Primordius trinket (if you are using). Single target or cleaving doesn't matter for FoF, that's the beauty of it. As it shares the damage, so hits 1 ob for 200k and hits 2 mobs, each for 100k totalling the same. The only downside to using FoF generally is movement, as obviously FoF is only worth using if you are going to let it run the full duration of the cast. Which if the boss is one that moves alot, or if you have your Storm Earth and Fire clones up and they are on a boss/add that moves alot too, then don't use it untill you know you are safe for the rest of the cast.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbleosvn View Post
    Single target or cleaving doesn't matter for FoF, that's the beauty of it.
    I should add that my incessant meddling on the PTR got Blizzard to screw up the way FoF works with SEF, the spirit won't do damage with FoF if your own ability hits the target it is attached to. In short, if on Dark Shamans or Protectors and two are right next to each other and SEF is on the other and you use FoF, the spirit's channel will do no damage and will be a DPS loss to have used FoF.

  18. #98
    What about weapons though? a 543 MH and 535 OH vs a 561 2H.

    EDIT: Just answered my own question. SimCraft has the 2H at ~14k dps increase over my 543 MH and 535 OH.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryce View Post
    What about weapons though? a 543 MH and 535 OH vs a 561 2H.

    EDIT: Just answered my own question. SimCraft has the 2H at ~14k dps increase over my 543 MH and 535 OH.
    Since this is likely to come up several times in the next few weeks I think I'll try to address this now because the 1h vs 2h thing has always been somewhat of a mystery to everyone.


    1h weapons are valued at exactly 74.2% of 2h DPS of equivalent ilvl because the off-hand weapon has a 50% damage penalty on it and an extra miss penalty on auto attacks, blahblah *insert extremely long mathematical analysis here* comes out to a class-less dummy with a 2h and 2 1h weapons of equivalent ilvl will do exactly the same DPS. However, some things throw that balance out of whack:

    1) Way of the Monk gives 40% AA damage if dual-wielding and 40% attack speed when using a 2h. With no stats this works out evenly, however because 425 haste rating gives 1% attack speed regardless, diminishing returns makes the jump from 0-1% a bigger increase than 40-41%. This essentially means that haste gives less auto-attack DPS per point for a 2h than it does for 1hs.

    2) Dancing Steel (and any RPPM weapon proc) has a double proc frequency on 2hs but that also means that it spends some time overriding itself instead of DW which can have 2 instances proccing at the same time, effectively giving DW a bit of an Agility boost (in the neighborhood of 300 on average).


    Prior to 5.4 10 ilvls was often cited as the difference (averaging out weapon ilvl of DW in which the MH is weighted more, i.e. a 543/535 setup would have an "average" of about 540 because the OH is worth less) between DW and 2h, however the change to Dancing Steel not having an increased proc rate from haste reduced that difference a bit, as well as general gear increases (and haste staying at the same levels) diminishing the value of that extra Agility and the impact of the haste scaling difference between DW and 2h. There's also some complication now because getting 2 1h weapons is an extra 8 ilvls worth of VP you could have spent on other gear that you have to spend upgrading the OH.

    Because of these changes in games systems, the acceptable ilvl is probably down to around 6 ilvls (WARNING: ESTIMATION ONLY) at which a 2h will overtake 1hs. I'd say that a Warforged 2h is probably better than 2 normal mode 1hs, if you can even get two of them.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serendepityz View Post
    what? this is the first week of heroic progression meaning there has been no "lets take this guy in for farm because we can" but yet Pattison is 11/13 HM Justmonk is 10/13 HM Snarfysnarf is 8/14 HM I'm 7/14 HM and I'm sure there are many other high progressed Windwalkers.

    we all have been in for the vast majority of heroic progression. Windwalker is possibly in the best state its been in since MoP release.
    Actually have to agree with you here; we are very valuable for any AE or cleave fight, and when played properly, we can also produce very strong numbers for single-target fights.

    When my work schedule changed and I had to find a new guild for the new work times, my class honestly was not an issue once I was able to point out our strengths.

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