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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post
    Are you one of those guys who thinks Holy paladins are only tank healers? You must have been those guys who got real far in TBC just by fasting Flash of Light on the tank for the entire expansion... 'The Sopranos' might have been a good show but guess what, "IT'S OVER, MOVE ON". You sound like my grandfather; stop living in the past.

    Being in a top end raiding guild and clearing content but playing a obsolete class doesn't make me happy. I still want my class to be on par with the other classes. I am not being subbed out or benched in the least bit. But you do understand that what you're saying really is just a stupid and lazy way to look at it.
    Because only the opinion you have counts
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  2. #362
    Honestly, just looking at World of Logs healing done and basing your argument that paladins are good/bad is a stupid way to gauge performance. Theres a lot of variables with healing parses, including the healing comp, amount of healers, skill of your other healers, effective cooldowns & how your guild stands in fire. Going through World of Logs and looking at Rank 1 parses and trying to duplicate won't work. It would be a lot easier to get a rank one parse if the raid had zero disc priests, innervate being funneled and no cooldowns being used (Devo Aura, Barrier) and simply healing through it.

    http://i.imgur.com/qJWYvBX.png
    http://i.imgur.com/S4Sm9Cb.png

    Something as simple as adding an extra healer and/or another disc priest can really impact healing parses and I'm not sure how many of you understand how to properly look at healing parses. There is a difference between healing done & "Effective" healing; A good healer will heal the raider with 50% HP /w a Debuff who will die without getting a direct heal then healing the raid who is at 75% with no foreseeable damage in the next 10 seconds. Sure the person who heals the raid will look much better on World of Logs/Skada, however healing that person could mean the difference in a kill or a wipe. World of Logs is a extremely effective tool, but you need to be knowledgeable when it comes to healing parses.

    I will agree though, holy paladins are bit behind; Our healing is a bit behind, our utility isn't unique to our spec and we do zero damage where as almost every other healer has some form of damage (Druids have Heart of the Wild/NV, Disc have Atonement & monks Fistweaving). However simply looking at World of Logs healing done and deciding we suck is a disgusting mentality.

    http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/...ting.tier16_25
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...uttle/advanced
    Last edited by Shuttle; 2013-10-19 at 10:30 PM.

  3. #363
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  4. #364
    High Overlord Juicyjonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shuttle View Post
    Honestly, just looking at World of Logs healing done and basing your argument that paladins are good/bad is a stupid way to gauge performance. Theres a lot of variables with healing parses, including the healing comp, amount of healers, skill of your other healers, effective cooldowns & how your guild stands in fire. Going through World of Logs and looking at Rank 1 parses and trying to duplicate won't work. It would be a lot easier to get a rank one parse if the raid had zero disc priests, innervate being funneled and no cooldowns being used (Devo Aura, Barrier) and simply healing through it.

    http://i.imgur.com/qJWYvBX.png
    http://i.imgur.com/S4Sm9Cb.png

    Something as simple as adding an extra healer and/or another disc priest can really impact healing parses and I'm not sure how many of you understand how to properly look at healing parses. There is a difference between healing done & "Effective" healing; A good healer will heal the raider with 50% HP /w a Debuff who will die without getting a direct heal then healing the raid who is at 75% with no foreseeable damage in the next 10 seconds. Sure the person who heals the raid will look much better on World of Logs/Skada, however healing that person could mean the difference in a kill or a wipe. World of Logs is a extremely effective tool, but you need to be knowledgeable when it comes to healing parses.

    I will agree though, holy paladins are bit behind; Our healing is a bit behind, our utility isn't unique to our spec and we do zero damage where as almost every other healer has some form of damage (Druids have Heart of the Wild/NV, Disc have Atonement & monks Fistweaving). However simply looking at World of Logs healing done and deciding we suck is a disgusting mentality.

    http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/...ting.tier16_25
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...uttle/advanced

    Wait, you think the only thing people are doing is looking at WoL and basing their decision on that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tru View Post
    Because only the opinion you have counts
    Nah, but its one of the only opinions addressing the situation.

  5. #365
    @Juicyjonny

    Most people here concede the fact that, holy pallys are indeed behind other healers in 25 man, as to the extent of the perceived disadvantage varies from player to player.

    On 10 man though, we are the second best healer on par with disc priests. Resto druids far outperform every other healing class in 10's as of this point and should be brought down to the level of other healers.
    To be human is to possess superior intelligence to other species, yet channel that otherwise-wondrous potential into the most degenerate of endeavors rather than benefiting the world.

  6. #366
    High Overlord Juicyjonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    @Juicyjonny

    Most people here concede the fact that, holy pallys are indeed behind other healers in 25 man, as to the extent of the perceived disadvantage varies from player to player.

    On 10 man though, we are the second best healer on par with disc priests. Resto druids far outperform every other healing class in 10's as of this point and should be brought down to the level of other healers.
    Okay, now you have my attention. Hopefully I don't cross the line here.

    1) I don't think anyone is actually conceding that fact
    2) Where are you getting your information on 10 man healing that we are 2nd BEHIND disc priests?
    3) According to epeenbots (10 man heroic) we are actually 3rd, behind Restoration druids > Restoration shamans > Holy Paladins > Disc priests > Mistweaver Monk > Holy Priests
    4) And by thinking that we are 'on par' with disc priests just shows that you don't understand how standard deviations work. I am not attacking you, I am trying to teach you that a standard deviation will show you the variation of numbers from the average. We have a HIGHER standard deviation which shows that we FLUCTUATE MORE, thus making us MORE INCONSISTENT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    Keep the personal attacks away, even if you don't mean it.


    I just noticed you're from Ann Arbor, MI? Do you go to UofM or you're just from around there?

    I go to Michigan State University, lol small world.

  7. #367
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post
    Okay, now you have my attention. Hopefully I don't cross the line here.

    1) I don't think anyone is actually conceding that fact
    2) Where are you getting your information on 10 man healing that we are 2nd BEHIND disc priests?
    3) According to epeenbots (10 man heroic) we are actually 3rd, behind Restoration druids > Restoration shamans > Holy Paladins > Disc priests > Mistweaver Monk > Holy Priests
    4) And by thinking that we are 'on par' with disc priests just shows that you don't understand how standard deviations work. I am not attacking you, I am trying to teach you that a standard deviation will show you the variation of numbers from the average. We have a HIGHER standard deviation which shows that we FLUCTUATE MORE, thus making us MORE INCONSISTENT.
    Well if you want to look at it that way by using Raidbots, using Spec Score across all parses submitted in the past month (2 months overlaps with ToT), so the majority of this raid tier. Paladin's for 10HC have the 2nd highest spec score and out of all healers one of the lowest standard deviation at 4.8 compared to say a disc priest with standard deviation of 10.8, thus disc priests are more likely to fluctuate fight per fight than a holy paladin. (Even if you only look at the top 100 parses, a holy paladin's standard deviation is the lowest for all healers) In 10's it indicates holy paladin's are quite a bit more consistent than the majority of other healers bar druids, but this is only taking e-healing into account.

    On 25HC this is of course a whole different story but hasn't it always.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post
    Okay, now you have my attention. Hopefully I don't cross the line here.

    1) I don't think anyone is actually conceding that fact
    ....There are so many posts in this thread detailing differing levels of perceived disadvantages of running a hpally over any other healer(in 25 man). Some feel the disadvantage is slight, and others feel the disadvantage is large. The consensus however, is that hpally is indeed weaker than every other healer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post
    2) Where are you getting your information on 10 man healing that we are 2nd BEHIND disc priests?
    We are behind druids, not disc priests. We are on par with disc priests. Every healer is currently behind resto druids as they are the most versatile and powerful healer in 10 man healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post
    3) According to epeenbots (10 man heroic) we are actually 3rd, behind Restoration druids > Restoration shamans > Holy Paladins > Disc priests > Mistweaver Monk > Holy Priests
    Nope. The reason why shammys were temporarily ahead of hpallys is because the first few heroic bosses except Immerseus involve lots of stacking. As guilds start progressing on the bosses that require a lot of movement/spreading(pretty much every boss past Galakras), hpallys have been picking up steam. And even on stacked fights we are more or less comparable to shammys. Hpallys clearly win on spread fights though for obvious reasons, so we are undoubtedly the 2nd best healer in terms of both throughput and versatility between spread/stacked fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post
    4) And by thinking that we are 'on par' with disc priests just shows that you don't understand how standard deviations work. I am not attacking you, I am trying to teach you that a standard deviation will show you the variation of numbers from the average. We have a HIGHER standard deviation which shows that we FLUCTUATE MORE, thus making us MORE INCONSISTENT.
    Refer to Kyuu's reply, we have one of the lowest, if not THE lowest deviation rate(save for resto druids again), amongst all the healers. You must be reading the data wrongly. We definitely are far more consistent than disc priests. We would have a clear victory over disc priests if it weren't for their dps utility. Their throughput is significantly lower than us.
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  9. #369
    High Overlord Juicyjonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuuseishu View Post
    Well if you want to look at it that way by using Raidbots, using Spec Score across all parses submitted in the past month (2 months overlaps with ToT), so the majority of this raid tier. Paladin's for 10HC have the 2nd highest spec score and out of all healers one of the lowest standard deviation at 4.8 compared to say a disc priest with standard deviation of 10.8, thus disc priests are more likely to fluctuate fight per fight than a holy paladin. (Even if you only look at the top 100 parses, a holy paladin's standard deviation is the lowest for all healers) In 10's it indicates holy paladin's are quite a bit more consistent than the majority of other healers bar druids, but this is only taking e-healing into account.

    On 25HC this is of course a whole different story but hasn't it always.
    Stop right there... Why are you including ToT? ToT was an entirely different tier. This is 100% all about 5.4, ToT is done with. Lol, you're way behind my friend; you're talking about something completely different.

    What are you trying to argue?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    ....There are so many posts in this thread detailing differing levels of perceived disadvantages of running a hpally over any other healer(in 25 man). Some feel the disadvantage is slight, and others feel the disadvantage is large. The consensus however, is that hpally is indeed weaker than every other healer.


    We are behind druids, not disc priests. We are on par with disc priests. Every healer is currently behind resto druids as they are the most versatile and powerful healer in 10 man healing.



    Nope. The reason why shammys were temporarily ahead of hpallys is because the first few heroic bosses except Immerseus involve lots of stacking. As guilds start progressing on the bosses that require a lot of movement/spreading(pretty much every boss past Galakras), hpallys have been picking up steam. And even on stacked fights we are more or less comparable to shammys. Hpallys clearly win on spread fights though for obvious reasons, so we are undoubtedly the 2nd best healer in terms of both throughput and versatility between spread/stacked fights.



    Refer to Kyuu's reply, we have one of the lowest, if not THE lowest deviation rate(save for resto druids again), amongst all the healers. You must be reading the data wrongly. We definitely are far more consistent than disc priests. We would have a clear victory over disc priests if it weren't for their dps utility. Their throughput is significantly lower than us.

    I agree with your first statement.

    We are behind druids, we are behind resto shamans and we are infront of disc priests. We are NOT BEHIND them in 10 man. In 25 man we are though. I was only responding to the one guys comment when he said that we are the best 10 man healer. I was baffled at where he got his information.

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    Paladins have a deviation of about 50k+/- HPS with disc priests at about 40k+/-... I never said we had the highest of ALL THE HEALERS. That was in reference to the one guy who said we are better than disc priests in 10 man.

    Oh and btw, if anyone in this discussion is including ANYTHING PRIOR to 5.4 then you are not understanding a single thing. The idea is to argue that there needs to be something done about the change that occurred at 5.4
    Last edited by Juicyjonny; 2013-10-20 at 02:00 AM.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post
    Stop right there... Why are you including ToT? ToT was an entirely different tier. This is 100% all about 5.4, ToT is done with. Lol, you're way behind my friend; you're talking about something completely different.

    What are you trying to argue?
    Sigh, read his post again, carefully. You seem to have some glaring comprehension and jumping-the-gun issues.

    He's saying he is only taking into account the parses from past month rather than the past 2 months because the latter overlaps with ToT.

    Capiche?






    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post
    I was only responding to the one guys comment when he said that we are the best 10 man healer.
    We can't be the best when Druids are so broken at this current point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post
    Paladins have a deviation of about 50k+/- HPS with disc priests at about 40k+/-... I never said we had the highest of ALL THE HEALERS. That was in reference to the one guy who said we are better than disc priests in 10 man.
    This is because, for Paladins, a deviation of ~50k HPS is a far lower overall percentage of their total healing, compared to say, Disc Priests where even 40k ish hps is a bigger chunk of their throughput.

    Remember, the pure throughput of a pally is very high, a lot higher than the disc priest, and that has to be taken into account.
    Last edited by PosPosPos; 2013-10-20 at 02:02 AM.
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  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Nope. The reason why shammys were temporarily ahead of hpallys is because the first few heroic bosses except Immerseus involve lots of stacking. As guilds start progressing on the bosses that require a lot of movement/spreading(pretty much every boss past Galakras), hpallys have been picking up steam...
    This is just not how the tier exists at all. I'm speaking from 25m but there is a stack phase on Protectors and Norushen, then last phase Galakras, stack phase on Malkorok, Thok is all stacked, Siegecrafter and Garrosh are both semi-stacked. You can't say that shaman only look good in the early fights because of raid stacking because that's just not happening the way you think it is.

    And even on stacked fights we are more or less comparable to shammys.
    Nope, not even close.

    Hpallys clearly win on spread fights though for obvious reasons
    Nope.

    So we are undoubtedly the 2nd best healer in terms of both throughput and versatility between spread/stacked fights.
    You're playing a different game than me.

    We would have a clear victory over disc priests if it weren't for their dps utility. Their throughput is significantly lower than us.
    How are we 'about equal' in raidbots and yet they can also be 'significantly lower than us?'
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  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    This is just not how the tier exists at all. I'm speaking from 25m but there is a stack phase on Protectors and Norushen, then last phase Galakras, stack phase on Malkorok, Thok is all stacked, Siegecrafter and Garrosh are both semi-stacked. You can't say that shaman only look good in the early fights because of raid stacking because that's just not happening the way you think it is.
    Learn to take a hint: I am talking from a purely 10 man perspective. In 10 man, you can stack on protectors, norushen, sha of pride and galakras for pretty much the entire fight. I don't care if spreading is needed in 25 mans, that's not what is being discussed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    Nope, not even close.
    Yes, we are. Again, this is in 10 mans.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    Nope.
    Now you are just being difficult.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    You're playing a different game than me.
    As a matter of fact, you are quite right, I do 10 mans, you do 25's. Please don't ever mix both modes up, they are so different.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    How are we 'about equal' in raidbots and yet they can also be 'significantly lower than us?'
    ....I never said disc priests and hpallys were "about equal" in raidbots. Please do not put words into my mouth.
    Their throughput in 10 mans is lower than hpally, but their overall "worth" is buoyed by the fact they output a signifcant amount of damage during a fight which a hpally can't. Hence, their throughput on raidbots is lower, but they are still on par with hpallys.
    Last edited by PosPosPos; 2013-10-20 at 02:16 AM.
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  13. #373
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    @Juicyjonny

    Most people here concede the fact that, holy pallys are indeed behind other healers in 25 man, as to the extent of the perceived disadvantage varies from player to player.

    On 10 man though, we are the second best healer on par with disc priests. Resto druids far outperform every other healing class in 10's as of this point and should be brought down to the level of other healers.
    No we aren't. Please stop spreading that non-sense. We are not on par with disc in 10m. If you think that you have no idea why disc has been considered near mandatory to 10m almost the entire expansion. It has not been just their output. Disc was not just brought to 10s for just their output. They were brought because of their damage, utility and output.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    ....I never said disc priests and hpallys were "about equal" in raidbots. Please do not put words into my mouth.
    Their throughput in 10 mans is lower than hpally, but their overall "worth" is buoyed by the fact they output a signifcant amount of damage during a fight which a hpally can't. Hence, their throughput on raidbots is lower, but they are still on par with hpallys.

    Yea it is completely damage. The fact they have reliable absorbs they can stack on the raid to increase the effective hp of the raid has nothing to do with it? And don't try to tell me paladin have absorbs as close to reliable or on par with Spirit Shell and Divine Aegis.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-10-20 at 05:14 AM.
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  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    No we aren't. Please stop spreading that non-sense. We are not on par with disc in 10m. If you think that you have no idea why disc has been considered near mandatory to 10m almost the entire expansion. It has not been just their output. Disc was not just brought to 10s for just their output. They were brought because of their damage, utility and output.
    Disc priests have passable dps, ok utility and below average output. If you can't outheal a disc priest when 2 healing, please reroll your class, you are doing hpallys wrong. Terribly wrong. Think the only time I allowed a disc priest to outheal me was when the guild tried 4 healing Iron Juggernaut.


    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Yea it is completely damage. The fact they have reliable absorbs they can stack on the raid to increase the effective hp of the raid has nothing to do with it? And don't try to tell me paladin have absorbs as close to reliable or on par with Spirit Shell and Divine Aegis.
    They have reliable absorbs, but utterly unreliable heals. You know, the class of spells that actually push health bars up when they do drop. Also the same reason why druids are far superior a raiding healer compared to disc priests(and pretty much everyone else), you know, their ability to restore health far surpasses the need to actually prevent health bars from dropping.
    Last edited by PosPosPos; 2013-10-20 at 08:21 AM.
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  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Disc priests have passable dps, ok utility and below average output. If you can't outheal a disc priest when 2 healing, please reroll your class, you are doing hpallys wrong. Terribly wrong. Think the only time I allowed a disc priest to outheal me was when the guild tried 4 healing Iron Juggernaut.
    Their strength is in stopping huge amounts of damage via Spirit Shell & their 90 talents, so you have no choice but to let them outheal you if they're doing it right, specially so on certain fights.

  16. #376
    Paladins have been op and top of the meters on average over the course of every expac since BC to Cata, and no just because you a little behind boo hoo. Paladins Holy/Prot have always been massively op and have lots of unique abilities which will always make them welcome in raids, I have yet to see a pala turned down if once is available for healing spots just because of their class. "Oh noes lets call the raid we only have 4 healers and 2 of them palas meh".

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Disc priests have passable dps, ok utility and below average output. If you can't outheal a disc priest when 2 healing, please reroll your class, you are doing hpallys wrong. Terribly wrong. Think the only time I allowed a disc priest to outheal me was when the guild tried 4 healing Iron Juggernaut.
    Your anecdotal experience is not backed up by logs. I'm looking at an overview of the tops healers on all fights in 10M both normal and heroic and I am absolutely not seeing holy paladin dominance on any fights.

    My thoroughly unscientific glance at the front page for all healing classes on a fight by fight basis does not show me one where there are little hammers and stars on the majority of the page. I see fights that favor monks, druids, shaman and disc priests. I see a fair number of holy paladins sprinkled around but nowhere am I seeing this blanket statement about holy pallies being 2nd to druids and ahead of disc priests.

    I get that you seem to have looked at the raidbot and somehow extrapolated that to real life, but that's not what I'm seeing at all. In fact, the only difference I really see is that disc scales far better in 25M and the rest of the healers seem to be about the same in relation to each other.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...Orgrimmar/hps/

    They have reliable absorbs, but utterly unreliable heals. You know, the class of spells that actually push health bars up when they do drop. Also the same reason why druids are far superior a raiding healer compared to disc priests(and pretty much everyone else), you know, their ability to restore health far surpasses the need to actually prevent health bars from dropping.
    You underestimate greatly the roll that effective health plays during heroic progression. There is literally NOTHING more important than preventing damage. You can't heal the dead and when you're looking at mechanics like Interrupting Jolt on Dark Animus or Deafening Screech on Thok having that EH cushion is utterly invaluable.

    The reason paladins were good up until 5.4 was not because our EF healed for so much (like a druid hot) but because keeping shields rolling on multiple targets increased the effective health of the raid. Resto shaman were brought to raids not just for Mana Tide Totems but for Ancestral Fortitude which increased the health of the raid by up to 10% again increasing EH.

    The point that continues to be missed is that the part of our utility that was taken away and that we're desperately trying to maximize with a sub par toolkit IS the EH niche. We don't have the raw throughput of a druid, monk or shaman and we don't have the same impact on EH as we've had.

    Are paladins bad? Should we be perma-benched until we get "fixed?" No. We're honestly not that bad. There's a place for us in a 25M raid for sure and probably in a 10M as well but if I'm looking at the way the classes break down and can have equally skilled healers on my roster and can pick my comp for any given fight I'll have paladins around, but they don't automatically warrant a spot for every boss on any size or difficulty level. I would argue that a disc priest does have at least one spot locked down for any raid size, any difficulty.
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  18. #378
    Regarding that link: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...Orgrimmar/hps/
    Is there an effective way to filter out those stupid 30sec fights to only get "real" fights? If so I'd love to know...

  19. #379
    Not specifically. They do a pretty good job of stripping invalid parses so there shouldn't be to many hanging around. If you look at the full first page of 40 parses for each fight you can see if there are any bugged logs and mentally filter them out. I wasn't just looking at the top ten for each fight.
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  20. #380
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post
    Stop right there... Why are you including ToT? ToT was an entirely different tier. This is 100% all about 5.4, ToT is done with. Lol, you're way behind my friend; you're talking about something completely different.

    What are you trying to argue?
    Sigh, read what I've said, "All Parses within the past month", which only includes those of SoO, if you put the time range to 2 months it overlaps to ToT so there is going to be data disparities. Please read fully and properly before you even think of pressing that post button.

    Also you are using HPS as a measure? how misguided you are if you want to use that as data because alls that is is average across all fights which include gimmick fights which can inflate numbers. Use spec score instead if you want something that is remotely reliable.

    And looking from your numbers you are using 2 months as the timespan with the top 100 parses, which includes ToT as denoted by the 5.4 line marker, reduce timespan to 1 month and toggle between the top 100 and all then come back.
    Last edited by Kyuuseishu; 2013-10-20 at 11:40 AM.

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