Honestly, just looking at World of Logs healing done and basing your argument that paladins are good/bad is a stupid way to gauge performance. Theres a lot of variables with healing parses, including the healing comp, amount of healers, skill of your other healers, effective cooldowns & how your guild stands in fire. Going through World of Logs and looking at Rank 1 parses and trying to duplicate won't work. It would be a lot easier to get a rank one parse if the raid had zero disc priests, innervate being funneled and no cooldowns being used (Devo Aura, Barrier) and simply healing through it.
Something as simple as adding an extra healer and/or another disc priest can really impact healing parses and I'm not sure how many of you understand how to properly look at healing parses. There is a difference between healing done & "Effective" healing; A good healer will heal the raider with 50% HP /w a Debuff who will die without getting a direct heal then healing the raid who is at 75% with no foreseeable damage in the next 10 seconds. Sure the person who heals the raid will look much better on World of Logs/Skada, however healing that person could mean the difference in a kill or a wipe. World of Logs is a extremely effective tool, but you need to be knowledgeable when it comes to healing parses.
I will agree though, holy paladins are bit behind; Our healing is a bit behind, our utility isn't unique to our spec and we do zero damage where as almost every other healer has some form of damage (Druids have Heart of the Wild/NV, Disc have Atonement & monks Fistweaving). However simply looking at World of Logs healing done and deciding we suck is a disgusting mentality.
Last edited by Shuttle; 2013-10-19 at 10:30 PM.
Most people here concede the fact that, holy pallys are indeed behind other healers in 25 man, as to the extent of the perceived disadvantage varies from player to player.
On 10 man though, we are the second best healer on par with disc priests. Resto druids far outperform every other healing class in 10's as of this point and should be brought down to the level of other healers.
1) I don't think anyone is actually conceding that fact
2) Where are you getting your information on 10 man healing that we are 2nd BEHIND disc priests?
3) According to epeenbots (10 man heroic) we are actually 3rd, behind Restoration druids > Restoration shamans > Holy Paladins > Disc priests > Mistweaver Monk > Holy Priests
4) And by thinking that we are 'on par' with disc priests just shows that you don't understand how standard deviations work. I am not attacking you, I am trying to teach you that a standard deviation will show you the variation of numbers from the average. We have a HIGHER standard deviation which shows that we FLUCTUATE MORE, thus making us MORE INCONSISTENT.
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I just noticed you're from Ann Arbor, MI? Do you go to UofM or you're just from around there?
I go to Michigan State University, lol small world.
On 25HC this is of course a whole different story but hasn't it always.
What are you trying to argue?
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I agree with your first statement.
We are behind druids, we are behind resto shamans and we are infront of disc priests. We are NOT BEHIND them in 10 man. In 25 man we are though. I was only responding to the one guys comment when he said that we are the best 10 man healer. I was baffled at where he got his information.
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Paladins have a deviation of about 50k+/- HPS with disc priests at about 40k+/-... I never said we had the highest of ALL THE HEALERS. That was in reference to the one guy who said we are better than disc priests in 10 man.
Oh and btw, if anyone in this discussion is including ANYTHING PRIOR to 5.4 then you are not understanding a single thing. The idea is to argue that there needs to be something done about the change that occurred at 5.4
Last edited by Juicyjonny; 2013-10-20 at 02:00 AM.
He's saying he is only taking into account the parses from past month rather than the past 2 months because the latter overlaps with ToT.
Remember, the pure throughput of a pally is very high, a lot higher than the disc priest, and that has to be taken into account.
Nope, not even close.And even on stacked fights we are more or less comparable to shammys.
Nope.Hpallys clearly win on spread fights though for obvious reasons
You're playing a different game than me.So we are undoubtedly the 2nd best healer in terms of both throughput and versatility between spread/stacked fights.
How are we 'about equal' in raidbots and yet they can also be 'significantly lower than us?'We would have a clear victory over disc priests if it weren't for their dps utility. Their throughput is significantly lower than us.
Their throughput in 10 mans is lower than hpally, but their overall "worth" is buoyed by the fact they output a signifcant amount of damage during a fight which a hpally can't. Hence, their throughput on raidbots is lower, but they are still on par with hpallys.
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Yea it is completely damage. The fact they have reliable absorbs they can stack on the raid to increase the effective hp of the raid has nothing to do with it? And don't try to tell me paladin have absorbs as close to reliable or on par with Spirit Shell and Divine Aegis.
Last edited by Freia; 2013-10-20 at 05:14 AM.
Paladins have been op and top of the meters on average over the course of every expac since BC to Cata, and no just because you a little behind boo hoo. Paladins Holy/Prot have always been massively op and have lots of unique abilities which will always make them welcome in raids, I have yet to see a pala turned down if once is available for healing spots just because of their class. "Oh noes lets call the raid we only have 4 healers and 2 of them palas meh".
My thoroughly unscientific glance at the front page for all healing classes on a fight by fight basis does not show me one where there are little hammers and stars on the majority of the page. I see fights that favor monks, druids, shaman and disc priests. I see a fair number of holy paladins sprinkled around but nowhere am I seeing this blanket statement about holy pallies being 2nd to druids and ahead of disc priests.
I get that you seem to have looked at the raidbot and somehow extrapolated that to real life, but that's not what I'm seeing at all. In fact, the only difference I really see is that disc scales far better in 25M and the rest of the healers seem to be about the same in relation to each other.
You underestimate greatly the roll that effective health plays during heroic progression. There is literally NOTHING more important than preventing damage. You can't heal the dead and when you're looking at mechanics like Interrupting Jolt on Dark Animus or Deafening Screech on Thok having that EH cushion is utterly invaluable.They have reliable absorbs, but utterly unreliable heals. You know, the class of spells that actually push health bars up when they do drop. Also the same reason why druids are far superior a raiding healer compared to disc priests(and pretty much everyone else), you know, their ability to restore health far surpasses the need to actually prevent health bars from dropping.
The reason paladins were good up until 5.4 was not because our EF healed for so much (like a druid hot) but because keeping shields rolling on multiple targets increased the effective health of the raid. Resto shaman were brought to raids not just for Mana Tide Totems but for Ancestral Fortitude which increased the health of the raid by up to 10% again increasing EH.
The point that continues to be missed is that the part of our utility that was taken away and that we're desperately trying to maximize with a sub par toolkit IS the EH niche. We don't have the raw throughput of a druid, monk or shaman and we don't have the same impact on EH as we've had.
Are paladins bad? Should we be perma-benched until we get "fixed?" No. We're honestly not that bad. There's a place for us in a 25M raid for sure and probably in a 10M as well but if I'm looking at the way the classes break down and can have equally skilled healers on my roster and can pick my comp for any given fight I'll have paladins around, but they don't automatically warrant a spot for every boss on any size or difficulty level. I would argue that a disc priest does have at least one spot locked down for any raid size, any difficulty.
Not specifically. They do a pretty good job of stripping invalid parses so there shouldn't be to many hanging around. If you look at the full first page of 40 parses for each fight you can see if there are any bugged logs and mentally filter them out. I wasn't just looking at the top ten for each fight.
Also you are using HPS as a measure? how misguided you are if you want to use that as data because alls that is is average across all fights which include gimmick fights which can inflate numbers. Use spec score instead if you want something that is remotely reliable.
And looking from your numbers you are using 2 months as the timespan with the top 100 parses, which includes ToT as denoted by the 5.4 line marker, reduce timespan to 1 month and toggle between the top 100 and all then come back.