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  1. #521
    Thank you very much for your answers.

    Even tough i already understand that all healers are now more passive and cooldown based with a mix of constant AOE splash, i realy dislike "the paladin way", feels realy ackward even tough it seems to work "ok" for most people.

    I'll probably try another healer that feels at least on paper more refined like a resto druid that seems to have much more fun tools and feels much more cohesive and makes more sense.

    Hopefuly i won't regret my decision

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    The reason you use Holy Radiance is because the combination of its healing + Daybreak is usually superior to that of Divine Light, and it doesn't have the limitation of Divine Light being usable only on the Beacon target, so you also gain Beacon healing ontop of everything else. That said its not advised to use it 100% of the time, Divine Light still has its place if you can crank out a 300k+ crit Divine Light on the tank in a snap with Infusion, thats vastly more efficient than pretty much any other healer will do for tank healing (the closest comparisons being Druid/Shaman, with Swiftmend or Nature's Swiftness, both of which are just as efficient when used on the raid), specially in a 2 heal situation you can end up using Divine Lights to keep the tank stable quite a lot, it mostly depends on how your group consists.

    That said, to answer the part of your post that I quoted specifically, we do a lot more than 'support heal'. We have a very strong toolkit that allows us to complement other healers very well, put us in a 2 heal situation with a Resto Druid for example and we will shine, being able to use our bomb heal EFs to fill the gaps the Druids can't quite cover, while they fill the spread AoE gaps that we can't really cover. The only thing that I'd agree with is that using Holy Radiance almost all the time does feel wrong from a design aspect, its supposed to be a big strong AoE heal with a cost to match, yet we're casting it 100s of times a fight and in a lot of cases only hitting 2-3 people with it (although we're certainly not using it as an exclusively single target heal, unless theres no other option).

    With regards to Light of Dawn, the reason we don't use it is because in our situation is a direct choice between either Eternal Flame or Light of Dawn, and EF just steamrolls ahead 99% of the time. Its just bad design on Blizzard's part and the reason we 'leave that to the other healers' is because what we do best is chunk people back up from very low health to full, with no cost what so ever (we're going to cast the EF anyway, so using the direct heal for something useful is a big bonus), the best Paladins will still use LoD a few times a raid, or on specific parts of a fight, but as a general piece of advice, its better to get along fine without it and then once you've learnt that play-style, try to weave it back in later, when you better understand its strengths.
    I really don't know why you would give such a advice. LoD is my no means bad. I use it more then a few times to say the least. Another poster a page back told a guy to take it of he's bars while using EF witch is just stupid and a very bad advice. learn to use it early on and take advantage of its strengths is my advice.

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by xgis View Post
    I really don't know why you would give such a advice. LoD is my no means bad. I use it more then a few times to say the least. Another poster a page back told a guy to take it of he's bars while using EF witch is just stupid and a very bad advice. learn to use it early on and take advantage of its strengths is my advice.
    This is wrong. If you're using EF the strength of the spec is using EF as your HP spender. By using LoD you're not using the spec to it's full potential AND a LoD heal + beacon is less than the amount healed by a single EF direct heal + hot + beacon. If you want to LoD spec SH.
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  4. #524
    the only fight in soo where the play-style you are suggesting is viable is malkorok imo. passing up a LoD because theoretical healing might be higher on paper is just bad.

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    This is wrong. If you're using EF the strength of the spec is using EF as your HP spender. By using LoD you're not using the spec to it's full potential AND a LoD heal + beacon is less than the amount healed by a single EF direct heal + hot + beacon. If you want to LoD spec SH.
    This.

    Also it's not just theoretically higher. It is higher in actual healing situations. There is a reason that when you look at logs, EF is going to be our #1 or #2 heal on every encounter.

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by Hainiryuun View Post
    This.

    Also it's not just theoretically higher. It is higher in actual healing situations. There is a reason that when you look at logs, EF is going to be our #1 or #2 heal on every encounter.
    If you re read what i wrote you will find that i did not argue LoD vs EF healing. EF will be your top healing spell yes, but ignoring LoD is Bad and is not sound advice for people new to paladins. it is a playstyle high end players should not go for unless you are meter padding.

    But hey, what ever floats your boat i guess.


    EDIT: i should also point out that this is from a 10man H perspective. i can not speak for a 25man healer.
    Last edited by xgis; 2013-11-19 at 04:42 PM.

  7. #527
    Blademaster Clarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    This is wrong. If you're using EF the strength of the spec is using EF as your HP spender. By using LoD you're not using the spec to it's full potential AND a LoD heal + beacon is less than the amount healed by a single EF direct heal + hot + beacon. If you want to LoD spec SH.
    If we recieved an application from a Holy paladin who said he didnt ever use LoD and had just removed it from his bars, i would tell my officers to decline him.
    LoD does have its strenghts, and the advice someone gave about removing LoD from ones bars, is a horrible advice.

    EF might be the better choice to cast 97% of the time, but if i see 5 or more dropping low fast, then im going to throw out a LoD.

    Knowing when to use EF vs LoD is how u can tell a good holy pala from a not so good one imo.

  8. #528
    High Overlord Juicyjonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clarius View Post
    If we recieved an application from a Holy paladin who said he didnt ever use LoD and had just removed it from his bars, i would tell my officers to decline him.
    LoD does have its strenghts, and the advice someone gave about removing LoD from ones bars, is a horrible advice.

    EF might be the better choice to cast 97% of the time, but if i see 5 or more dropping low fast, then im going to throw out a LoD.

    Knowing when to use EF vs LoD is how u can tell a good holy pala from a not so good one imo.
    Lol, you're joking right? That paladin in my opinion is brilliant. If you are using EF then there is not a time you should be casting LoD.

    THERE MIGHT BE a time where you're in a 10 man and all 10 people have a strong EF ticking on them and AOE damage is going out... THEN SURE, cast 1 LOD... but if you are using LoD when you have EF talented then you are doing it wrong.

  9. #529
    Blademaster Clarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post
    Lol, you're joking right? That paladin in my opinion is brilliant. If you are using EF then there is not a time you should be casting LoD.

    THERE MIGHT BE a time where you're in a 10 man and all 10 people have a strong EF ticking on them and AOE damage is going out... THEN SURE, cast 1 LOD... but if you are using LoD when you have EF talented then you are doing it wrong.
    Im talking from a 25m hc perspective, and im not joking.
    If u only care about whoring and getting high ranks, sure, just remove LoD, but if u care about saving ppl, then u should know that there're situations where LoD is better to cast.

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post
    Lol, you're joking right? That paladin in my opinion is brilliant. If you are using EF then there is not a time you should be casting LoD.

    THERE MIGHT BE a time where you're in a 10 man and all 10 people have a strong EF ticking on them and AOE damage is going out... THEN SURE, cast 1 LOD... but if you are using LoD when you have EF talented then you are doing it wrong.
    If you only cast one LoD during an entire encounter you are doing it wrong. So im assuming you are trolling.

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by Clarius View Post
    If we recieved an application from a Holy paladin who said he didnt ever use LoD and had just removed it from his bars, i would tell my officers to decline him.
    LoD does have its strenghts, and the advice someone gave about removing LoD from ones bars, is a horrible advice.

    EF might be the better choice to cast 97% of the time, but if i see 5 or more dropping low fast, then im going to throw out a LoD.

    Knowing when to use EF vs LoD is how u can tell a good holy pala from a not so good one imo.
    Assuming you're in a fairly good guild, you're not the audience that the advice is aimed at. The 'Take LoD off your bars' advice is aimed at new players or people who are just using LoD too much and have become used to it, the reason its advised is so you force yourself to use EF more and understand when to go "oh shit, LoD would have been great here". Its all about reconditioning your automatic reaction to 5 people losing health, from instantly pressing LoD because its what you're supposed to do, to thinking about whats going to happen to those 5 people in the future, are they going to be continuing to lose health to the point of needing emergency heals, are they going to drop to a happy medium where they can be healed up efficiently by things like Efflorescence, Wild Growth, Eternal Flame, Renew, Circle of Healing, Atonement, the list goes on but the thought process is what its trying to promote. Noone is saying that taking off LoD is what every Paladin should do, we're just saying that its an easy way to recondition yourself into a better healer.

  12. #532
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Assuming you're in a fairly good guild, you're not the audience that the advice is aimed at. The 'Take LoD off your bars' advice is aimed at new players or people who are just using LoD too much and have become used to it, the reason its advised is so you force yourself to use EF more and understand when to go "oh shit, LoD would have been great here". Its all about reconditioning your automatic reaction to 5 people losing health, from instantly pressing LoD because its what you're supposed to do, to thinking about whats going to happen to those 5 people in the future, are they going to be continuing to lose health to the point of needing emergency heals, are they going to drop to a happy medium where they can be healed up efficiently by things like Efflorescence, Wild Growth, Eternal Flame, Renew, Circle of Healing, Atonement, the list goes on but the thought process is what its trying to promote. Noone is saying that taking off LoD is what every Paladin should do, we're just saying that its an easy way to recondition yourself into a better healer.
    Pretty much this. And as you said, Clarius, in 97% of situations, casting EF is going to be better than LoD, would you not agree that it is easier to tell a person to take the ability off their bars and just use EF and have them figure out and learn when LoD can be used? It's all about making sure said players don't just go "OMG LITTLE DAMAGE WENT OUT USE LoD!!1!" Players raiding heroics shouldn't need to be told that every ability you have has a function in a certain time or certain place. The players the advice is aimed at aren't likely thinking about things like "Will multiple people die unless I cast LoD right now?" "If I use LoD will it be able to actually hit 6 people to get the full benefit?" "Is the tank taking a lot of damage so will be more efficient to keep him alive via EF on the raid vs just topping off the raid with LoD?"

    That being said, I can still usually count the number of times I use LoD on an encounter on one hand. And usually never at all on Immerseus, Dark Shamans, Nazgrim, Malkorok, or Spoils for heroics.
    Last edited by Hainiryuun; 2013-11-19 at 06:05 PM.

  13. #533
    Blademaster Clarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hainiryuun View Post
    Pretty much this. And as you said, Clarius, in 97% of situations, casting EF is going to be better than LoD, would you not agree that it is easier to tell a person to take the ability off their bars and just use EF and have them figure out and learn when LoD can be used? It's all about making sure said players don't just go "OMG LITTLE DAMAGE WENT OUT USE LoD!!1!" Players raiding heroics shouldn't need to be told that every ability you have has a function in a certain time or certain place. The players the advice is aimed at aren't likely thinking about things like "Will multiple people die unless I cast LoD right now?" "If I use LoD will it be able to actually hit 6 people to get the full benefit?" "Is the tank taking a lot of damage so will be more efficient to keep him alive via EF on the raid vs just topping off the raid with LoD?"
    Guess it makes more sense to me when u put like that :P

  14. #534
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xgis View Post
    the only fight in soo where the play-style you are suggesting is viable is malkorok imo. passing up a LoD because theoretical healing might be higher on paper is just bad.
    False.


    Quote Originally Posted by xgis View Post
    If you only cast one LoD during an entire encounter you are doing it wrong. So im assuming you are trolling.
    If you are prioritizing Light of Dawn while being specced for Eternal Flame you are doing it wrong and really have no business giving healing advice to anyone.


    Quote Originally Posted by Clarius View Post
    If we recieved an application from a Holy paladin who said he didnt ever use LoD and had just removed it from his bars, i would tell my officers to decline him.
    LoD does have its strenghts, and the advice someone gave about removing LoD from ones bars, is a horrible advice.

    EF might be the better choice to cast 97% of the time, but if i see 5 or more dropping low fast, then im going to throw out a LoD.

    Knowing when to use EF vs LoD is how u can tell a good holy pala from a not so good one imo.
    And every time we have a paladin apply to my guild whose logs show them using LoD as much if not more than EF while being EF specced, I tell the officers to decline them. Their numbers are horrible for a reason.



    The amount of paladins I see everyday speccing EF (simply because the top paladins do it) and then spamming LoD is staggering.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-11-19 at 06:56 PM.

  15. #535
    Blademaster Clarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    And every time we have a paladin apply to my guild whose logs show them using LoD as much if not more than EF while being EF specced, I tell the officers to decline them. Their numbers are horrible for a reason.
    Yes i agree

  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    False.




    If you are prioritizing Light of Dawn while being specced for Eternal Flame you are doing it wrong and really have no business giving healing advice to anyone.




    And every time we have a paladin apply to my guild whose logs show them using LoD as much if not more than EF while being EF specced, I tell the officers to decline them. Their numbers are horrible for a reason.



    The amount of paladins I see everyday speccing EF (simply because the top paladins do it) and then spamming LoD is staggering.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3149&e=3806

    Number of LoD's 67
    Number of EF's 51

    Boss dead.
    am i a bad healer ? no.

    So basically you have told your officers to pass on potentially great healer because your bad advice.
    Last edited by xgis; 2013-11-19 at 08:02 PM.

  17. #537
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xgis View Post
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3149&e=3806

    Number of LoD's 67
    Number of EF's 51

    Boss dead.
    am i a bad healer ? no.

    So basically you have told your officers to pass on potentially great healer because your bad advice.

    Nope. I have never told our officers to pass on a good healer. Their numbers were bad and a big reason was overuse of Light of Dawn while speccing Eternal Flame.

    As for your logs, boss would have been dead and the raid would have been healed effectively if you actually knew how to utilize EF properly. If you want to spam LoD, go Selfless Healer. Just stop spreading your horrible advice.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-11-19 at 08:11 PM.

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by xgis View Post
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3149&e=3806

    Number of LoD's 67
    Number of EF's 51

    Boss dead.
    am i a bad healer ? no.

    So basically you have told your officers to pass on potentially great healer because your bad advice.
    I would like to take the opportunity to /facepalm here.

    You obviously don't know how to read logs, 67 refers to the number of TARGETS you healed with a non-crit LoD.

    That's not the number of casts, nor even the total number of targets you healed with LoD(total number is 94 targets healed with LoD btw).

    And that is not even factoring in your LoD healing accounts for 10% of the amount you healed with EF. Way to link a log that directly contradicts your argument. /golfclap

    Finally, the keyword here is "prioritizing". Do you know what that word means? It means that, under normal circumstances you use something(EF) over the other(LoD). So obviously, that also means under abnormal circumstances you can choose to use something else(LoD over EF).
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  19. #539
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xgis View Post
    EDIT: i should also point out that this is from a 10man H perspective. i can not speak for a 25man healer.
    LOD is worse in 10 man than 25 man, if you're specced EF.

  20. #540
    Not only that, lets take this even further. First, if you actually truly did use LoD and EF that many times, that means your LoD's, which you wasted, at an absolute minimum, of 67 HP on only did 2.4% of your total healing. An absolute misuse compared to EF which did 22.1% of your healing with LESS HP. But luckily, you just can't read a log properly, let me help you.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...ght+of+Dawn%22

    You actually only used LoD 16 times this fight. The number of times where LoD actually healed everyone for SOMETHING (aka, didn't do 100% overheal) was 3 times. You know how many times where you literally healed for ZERO and had 100% overheal on all the people you casted it on? Twice. The number of times where only 1 person actually got a heal? 2. Then another 4 where 2 "technically" get healed, but one of them was for such a minimal amount that it might as well have been straight overheal. An unbuffed LoD hits for only. So about half of your LoD uses were basically complete wastes, other than throwing a 25k shield on some people (and it probably wasn't anywhere close to that amount. That's assuming LoD actually hitting a person for 50k and 50% mastery, which are both unlikely). 3 actually good uses of it, and some "OK" uses when EF still probably would have been better.

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