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  1. #241
    Moderator sjsctt's Avatar
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    I remember when I was in an undergeared (but skilled guild), horridon was hard. Add gear and 2 weeks and it was face-roll. Point is that gear removes you from reality.

  2. #242
    Siege normal is nothing like LFR. I've never won so much loot from LFR, so Siege normal must be something different. To be honest if your raid group is 540, your raid group shouldn't wipe. This thread is pretty stupid in that regard.

  3. #243
    hey guys i like spending my free time posting about how easy content my group outgears is

    i promise you will see a difference in difficulty if you switch all of your equipment to normal upgraded and have at least one retarded tank

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    the reason its so visible atm is how retarded gear scaling is with exponential rise in performance with stats on gear -_- also part of the reason people see and will see even bigger and faster rise in numbers is cause eveyr single gear piece they will obtain will be instantly upgraded which means that they are geting 561 loot -_-



    those who will end this week with 9/14 are people who were 6-8/13 HC in tot >< definetly not those who are target audience of normals -_-
    Yes, the target audience for normals is not people who are 9/14 two raid nights after the patch.

    Perspective, it's hard.

  5. #245
    Well I mean, this is just the opposite kind of thread that we got with the release of ToT. That brought lots of "Horridon is too hard, nerf him now!" threads from more casual normal guilds (not equating casual with bad, but more in terms of less progression). Blizzard has stated here and there even that the first several bosses of SoO are supposed to be pretty easy, instead of having high difficulty in Normal mode.

    If you all kill Heroic next week, then yes, that would be underwhelming.

    The only way I could see a valid point be made here would be if a guild that severely struggled in ToT Normal, say one Lei Shen kill by 5.4 release, went into SoO Normal and got 6+/14 in one night.

  6. #246
    are people really angry people over gearing the content are saying its easy for them? Of course its easy for them but it seems easier than going from 14>15 than 15>16

    I mean hell I have run this raid on normal on 3 toons.

    549 disc/holypriest 14/14
    528 mw monk 6/14
    520 Warlock. 7/14

    All of them are clearing in much farther the first week of normal's than they did in ToT.
    Last edited by Blood fox; 2013-09-15 at 06:15 AM.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." -Friedrich Nietzsche

  7. #247
    The difficulty ramps up, especially on the last 6 bosses. I would say that some bosses are probably slightly undertuned (dark shaman and nazgrim especialy, since they are both easier than norushen which is way earlier in the instance) but overall the difficulty seems well tuned for normal mode.

  8. #248
    Why must normal mode Raids bring Players to the edge of their Capabilities, require thorough WoLand Recount analysis for Guild Player recruitment etc?

    Even SoO Flex Pugs on Openraid have invite messenges like "LFM Must have superhigh ilvl and 4/4 down" <<<posted at first Week of Opening
    Capitalism, Ho!

  9. #249
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fincher View Post
    Why must normal mode Raids bring Players to the edge of their Capabilities, require thorough WoLand Recount analysis for Guild Player recruitment etc?

    Even SoO Flex Pugs on Openraid have invite messenges like "LFM Must have superhigh ilvl and 4/4 down" <<<posted at first Week of Opening
    Because people always want to be carried instead of taking the time to either help people learn (the horror!) or actually not want to faceroll content.
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  10. #250
    What is the problem with content being hard? Do you really wanna clear normal in the first week, heroic in the second week and then farm the instance for 1 year just gearing up all your shit? You can't call it progression anymore nowadays... You know all the bosses beforehand and just clear it in 2 weeks and the content is over.
    Why not let some chosen guilds to some testing on these bosses so they aren't buggy but dont open it up to the public so you can ACTUALLY progress on something instead of just knowing everything the bosses do and faceroll it.

    Thats just my opinion to all this. I haven't touched 5.4 yet and probably never will.

    "WoW is hard duh." It's not anymore, deal with it.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Haxx0rcist View Post
    What is the problem with content being hard?
    Few people end up doing it, and the content fails at its primary purpose, which is to provide entertainment that causes people to retain their subscriptions.

    Another problem is that if there is a "hard" difficulty mode, it devalues the emotional reward of doing an "easy" mode. This may be the greatest cost Blizzard has (perhaps unknowingly) incurred for their persistent focus on the top 1%.

    Blizzard would have been better off catering only to the average player, and telling that top 1% to take a hike.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  12. #252
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Few people end up doing it, and the content fails at its primary purpose, which is to provide entertainment that causes people to retain their subscriptions.

    Another problem is that if there is a "hard" difficulty mode, it devalues the emotional reward of doing an "easy" mode. This may be the greatest cost Blizzard has (perhaps unknowingly) incurred for their persistent focus on the top 1%.

    Blizzard would have been better off catering only to the average player, and telling that top 1% to take a hike.
    Don't necessarily agree, but I see the point being made. When there's a heroic mode, normal mode is devalued completely. With Normal, Flex is devalued. With Flex, LFR is devalued. It's like peer pressure in high school: Oh, you DON'T raid heroic? You aren't cool, man. Not cool at all. Doesn't matter if you raid normal, that's not cool because like, everyone can raid normal, but only the cool kids can raid heroic. Sometimes the game feels more like high school with nothing but cliques, where the jocks look down on everyone else and the like.

    That's part of the issue with multiple modes, it creates a caste system where people's worth is determined by what caste they're in, rightly or wrongly. How many times have you seen someone called a baddie/scrub because they only raid LFR (even if they are decent)? How many times has someone stated that "Normal mode doesn't matter" and basically spit on anyone who raids normal modes as being inferior? How many times has a heroic raider cited their achievement as proof that they are good?
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  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Haxx0rcist View Post
    Do you really wanna clear normal in the first week, heroic in the second week and then farm the instance for 1 year just gearing up
    Two more days to go, but it looks like about 2% of raiders (about 0.05% of players) will endure the first fate; about a dozen guilds worldwide will endure the second. Fantastic accomplishments, but totally unrepresentative of subscribers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Few people end up doing it, and the content fails at its primary purpose, which is to provide entertainment that causes people to retain their subscriptions.
    What drives a lot of misinformation is the poorly understood phenomenon of WoW gaining subscribers at its fastest rate when raid content was the most remote. It stands to reason to clarify here. Simply put, the game capitalized on a gaming/fantasy-bred demographic familiar with or attracted to the aesthetic of Warcraft III but entirely new to MMORPGs. An open world was novel. Leveling was novel. Permanent inter-player associations were novel. So many of the game's basics were fresh experiences that the "fable" of raiding was an incentive, not a deterrent. Players "grew" with the game, always trying to achieve more — but, as per human nature, set the floor of expectations at their highest mark. We know through sales figures, public subscriber data and anecdote that on the eve of Cataclysm, the game's popularity was at its peak.

  14. #254
    They said they were going to tune normals lighter. You'd do well to hold your complaints about difficulty until you are able to pull bosses on the difficulty that is intended for players like you, heroic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    Siege normal is nothing like LFR. I've never won so much loot from LFR, so Siege normal must be something different.
    So I see we're presenting a lack of understanding of probability as an argument again.

  15. #255
    Legendary! Asmekiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    I can't help myself. We had our first evening in SOO, 4 hours raiding - and killed 9/13, only 1 wipe over the complete evening (on dark shamans) - and no, we're not hardcore. We didn't have PTR raids, we played really bad, made soooooooooo many mistakes - but ilvl 545 simply made you skip all mechanics. ?
    Oh noes, you're overgearing it by ~20 ilvls and you think it's quite easy. Well, that never happened before in WoW.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Haxx0rcist View Post
    Thats just my opinion to all this. I haven't touched 5.4 yet and probably never will.
    I like to form and state opinions without any knowledge of the topic, too! After all, it's just my opinion so who are those jerks to say it's wrong?

    Heroic-geared raiders were busily shouting down anyone who asked for Horridon nerfs in T15 with the same bad logic this thread is filled with. Blizzard has been very clear that they felt that was a mistake and SoO would have a smoother difficulty curve. So far, they have delivered what was promised. Immerses is probably too easy, but fallen protectors quickly ramps up to where it should be for 520-ish groups and Norushen is another progression step up from there (even 8+ heroic guilds with 540+ item level averages were complaining about the "tight" enrage timer on this fight because they failed the mechanics).

    Dark Shamans will be a very big roadblock for any group under a 530 average and the 10% add wave on Nazgrim is another relatively serious DPS-check for undergeared groups. This doesn't mean it will be impossible for them, and it shouldn't be. If you get the mechanics right, it should give you some breathing room on gear levels. Normal mode is not intended to stop people capable of executing heroic mechanics. And it's definitely not intended for people who have gear levels within 6 item levels of what it drops.

    Substituting gear upgrades for progressive zone-wide nerfs makes heroic raiders feel better about themselves, but it essentially carries the nerf over to the next tier, which, in my opinion, is why there's so much whining from them about how normal mode is "too easy."
    Last edited by Adhemar; 2013-09-15 at 07:41 PM.

  17. #257
    *says SoO normal is easy as LFR*

    *Hasnt cleared SoO normal*

  18. #258
    1. Garrosh is easier than Klaxxi - fail
    2. Garrosh is one of the least interesting fights mechanically in the raid - fail

  19. #259
    Pandaren Monk Myz's Avatar
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    Nonsense. There is a pretty nice difficulty ramp-up even in Normal. Our first group cleared it and our second group is at 13/14. Most of us are in 548-550 ilvl and we didn't have any issues until Garrosh. The second group, where I play on my Lock, is having to carry 2 people with 527-529 ilvl, and we're having a hard time on Garrosh by lacking the DPS to clean adds quick enough in phase 1. We're not utilizing the engineer wheels since it's doing more bad than good right for us atm.

    Can't wait to see the heroic versions. The encounters are extremely interesting with Blackfuse and Paragons being instant classics imo.

    I know already that, without Blizzard nerfing it, Garrosh will be a pretty hard fight for a lot of guilds. Even in full Normal SoO gear, it's still going to be tough. It's quite a bit harder than Lei Shen/Animus was from a Normal standpoint.
    Last edited by Myz; 2013-09-15 at 09:14 PM.

  20. #260
    Garrosh is easier than Klaxxi - fail
    I found Garrosh harder than Klaxxi in normal. We could outgear and ignore most mechanics in Klaxxi (killed it in 2 pulls, screwing up the order we were supposed to do during the fight and ignoring half the mechanics) while Garrosh was a lot less forgiving.

    The Klaxxi fight is very nice and will probably be very enjoyable in heroic but in normal it was a bit disappointing after reading about it so much.

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