So... The Alliance "fist pump moment..." [Spoilers]

[Armourboy]

I never really said that Goblins got these amazing mounts, I was just pointing out the hype and huge blog post they put out for saddle-less versions of mounts we already had. Had they done any of the following, the hype would be decently warranted:

- Changed the color
- Changed the model
- NOT MADE THE HYPE TO BEGIN WITH

I only brought that up because, had they not overhyped this moment, we wouldn't have such a sour taste in our mouths. If I didn't constantly read in that blue text/tweets posted on MMO-Champ about "Alliance's moment of glory/time to shine/'winning expansion'" bullshit, I would be fine with it. But nope, they get an backlash of angry players (such as myself) that feel cheated and lied to. That's all.

Well and I think that was the other big mistake, had they not hyped it since the last expansion as some grand moment for the Alliance then I probably would of been closer to satisfied with it, or at least seen it as par for the course. I'm not mad, I'm not OMGWTFBBQ about it or anything, its just more of that far to typical disappointed feel lol.

[JimPaladin]

You just 'quoted' uncited fan commentary from wowwiki as if it had any semblance of authority. Yes, it's the same Horde in name, but very little else. Orgrim's Horde was also not the original Horde, but the one he usurped from Blackhand. Another of the Horde's many civil wars. Blackhand's son, Rend, in turn led the Dark Horde. I would think a player from Vanilla might remember that storyline more clearly.

Given the timeline the game covers (it's been a very long time since Vanilla in game-time), punishing the current Horde for actions stretching far enough back to their "intent to destroy the world" would make absolutely no sense. Using your own example, it would be more like if we punished Obama for Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

Never have I been so in love with some cunt who has a Pony signature.

[Durandro]

He's just the kind of person that, even if Varian cut the heads off of everyone in the Horde and made a throne out of the heads and then fucked Jaina so hard she turned normal again and then Anduin became Jesus and they all beat Sargeras and the Old Gods up with their giant, shining phalluses while a bunch of Dwarves drove giant tanks made out Alliance symbols that shot Stormwinds from canons made out of vanilla PvP armor sets; he would STILL complain the "le meme fist bump" moment wasn't good enough.

That's such a ridiculous statement that even you must see it.

When people openly say what their problem is, and what they'd rather see, you can't then go and say they wouldn't be satisfied by an utterly over the top 'better' turn of events.

Seriously, stop it. Its embaressing.

[akteliae]

Never have I been so in love with some cunt who has a Pony signature.

I've actually only seen one or two episodes of it, though I did grow up with hand-me-down MLP toys.
I just wanted an adorable pony to match my avatar, mostly.

[jbombard]

You just 'quoted' uncited fan commentary from wowwiki as if it had any semblance of authority. Yes, it's the same Horde in name, but very little else. Orgrim's Horde was also not the original Horde, but the one he usurped from Blackhand. Another of the Horde's many civil wars. Blackhand's son, Rend, in turn led the Dark Horde. I would think a player from Vanilla might remember that storyline more clearly.

Given the timeline the game covers (it's been a very long time since Vanilla in game-time), punishing the current Horde for actions stretching far enough back to their "intent to destroy the world" would make absolutely no sense. Using your own example, it would be more like if we punished Obama for Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

Ok, I'll compare that to your sources... oh wait you didn't have any. hmm your word vs. respected site.

Also you do realize Japan is still being punished for their part in WWII right, their military is still limited to defense, not to mention the U.S. military bases throughout Japan and the culture and people are very different now. US isn't punished because we won. Garrosh wouldn't need to take responsibility if he won. If this was truly an Alliance victory their should be reparations. But we both know it wasn't really an Alliance victory, it was a victory for the Horde rebels successful coup. Fist pump!

[Aleksej89]

Varian's speech was epic. This is what the Alliance should be. Lawful Good, not Lawful Stupid. They're not gonna kill the Horde out of revenge, but if the Horde fails to practice the honor that they preach, they become villains and do not deserve mercy.

I gotta say i agree with you, jokubas.

Most of the Alliance is trying to be "Lawful Good", but as any other mortal being they are prone to mistakes and failures.

Unless the Alliance is willing to commit planet-wide genocide, there is no other way to hold a territory as wast as Horde's and enslave the people as numerous as Horde's - especially when the main Horde territories are quite distant from Alliance territories.

Varian said exactly what the alliance should now focus on - securing kalimdor (nelven's borders), doing something about theramore, getting gilneas back (and containing sylvanas) - possibly getting those damn gnomes back into their robotic city.

[Deleted]

If murrican' style kick-assing is what you prefer over Alliance's ideals put into practice, I'd suggest you to think your faction preferences.

[akteliae]

Ok, I'll compare that to your sources... oh wait you didn't have any. hmm your word vs. respected site.

Also you do realize Japan is still being punished for their part in WWII right, their military is still limited to defense, not to mention the U.S. military bases throughout Japan and the culture and people are very different now. US isn't punished because we won. Garrosh wouldn't need to take responsibility if he won. If this was truly an Alliance victory their should be reparations. But we both know it wasn't really an Alliance victory, it was a victory for the Horde rebels successful coup. Fist pump!

My 'word' actually came from the same source, I just read more than the single line that validated the simplistic train of thought I wished to follow at the time. I was referencing the storyline portrayed in the Warcraft franchise, in regards to the tumultuous early years of Horde leadership, while referencing Wowwiki's sections on Orgrim, Rend, and Blackhand Sr.

Unfortunate to see the Hiroshima & Nagasaki analogy soared clear over your head. It was a reference, specifically, to your desire to punish the Horde for actions in the distant past. The limitations Japan faces now were not set up 50 years after the war, but immediately after. Your desire to punish the whole of the Horde for 'trying to destroy the world' when that was only true of the Old Horde in the distant past is exactly like someone wishing to punish the US in the present for the atom bombs. Speediness matters.

[velde046]

Sure. Alliance kill the Horde off, and now there is only a 1 faction game. Have fun with that.

Seriously some of you don't think this through. Alliance players have perpetual rainclouds over their heads.

Agree, but then again a lot of people don't care about PVP and wouldn't give it a second thought. As far as PVE goes it would not matter that much really.

[jbombard]

I gotta say i agree with you, jokubas.

Most of the Alliance is trying to be "Lawful Good", but as any other mortal being they are prone to mistakes and failures.

Unless the Alliance is willing to commit planet-wide genocide, there is no other way to hold a territory as wast as Horde's and enslave the people as numerous as Horde's - especially when the main Horde territories are quite distant from Alliance territories.

Varian said exactly what the alliance should now focus on - securing kalimdor (nelven's borders), doing something about theramore, getting gilneas back (and containing sylvanas) - possibly getting those damn gnomes back into their robotic city.

If that was actually what he said and what actually happens I would be super excited.

But he says

"We've brought our people security in Kalimdor" which sounds like it is done because it is in the past tense. Sounds like he means the end of fighting, it doesn't tell us much about where the lines have been drawn.

"station a garrison near Theramore" A garrison isn't much compared to a thriving port and it is in an area that is already ours. "Doing something about Theramore" as you said would be great, but having a garrison isn't doing a whole lot.

"investigate cleansing the plague from Gilnean lands" He doesn't even say we are going to cleanse it, he says well look into cleansing it. Once again if it actually happens then well finally have the Worgen zone that got cut, kind of like the Goblins already had Azshara.

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My 'word' actually came from the same source, I just read more than the single line that validated the simplistic train of thought I wished to follow at the time. I was referencing the storyline portrayed in the Warcraft franchise, in regards to the tumultuous early years of Horde leadership, while referencing Wowwiki's sections on Orgrim, Rend, and Blackhand Sr.

Unfortunate to see the Hiroshima & Nagasaki analogy soared clear over your head. It was a reference, specifically, to your desire to punish the Horde for actions in the distant past. The limitations Japan faces now were not set up 50 years after the war, but immediately after. Your desire to punish the whole of the Horde for 'trying to destroy the world' when that was only true of the Old Horde in the distant past is exactly like someone wishing to punish the US in the present for the atom bombs. Speediness matters.

When did I say I wanted to punish the Horde for the distant past, unless you consider Theramore the distant past? History however speaks to how much we can trust them to keep the peace based on nothing more than a few harsh words from Varian.

[akteliae]

If that was actually what he said and what actually happens I would be super excited.

But he says

"We've brought our people security in Kalimdor" which sounds like it is done because it is in the past tense. Sounds like he means the end of fighting, it doesn't tell us much about where the lines have been drawn.

"station a garrison near Theramore" A garrison isn't much compared to a thriving port and it is in an area that is already ours. "Doing something about Theramore" as you said would be great, but having a garrison isn't doing a whole lot.

"investigate cleansing the plague from Gilnean lands" He doesn't even say we are going to cleanse it, he says well look into cleansing it. Once again if it actually happens then well finally have the Worgen zone that got cut, kind of like the Goblins already had Azshara.

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When did I say I wanted to punish the Horde for the distant past, unless you consider Theramore the distant past? History however speaks to how much we can trust them to keep the peace based on nothing more than a few harsh words.

You specifically mentioned trying to destroy the world, did you not, earlier in the thread?
Only the Old Horde tried that. Theramore was not the world. Theramore was also not the first town destroyed by the opposite faction.

Also; Azshara isn't exactly a capital for the Goblins, they're more stationed in Org itself. Azshara just has some questlines, and a fort/comically large cannon/town, with little of importance actually happening there. Both Azshara and Gilneas are effectively 'empty' zones, despite their associated races.

I do think it needs to be said that some people in this conversation really need to take a step back and remind themselves that we're talking about the lore of a video game that was originally developed using adapted and co-opted lore from other franchises. It's not a topic to get so worked up about.

[jbombard]

You specifically mentioned trying to destroy the world, did you not, earlier in the thread?
Only the Old Horde tried that. Theramore was not the world.

Also; Azshara isn't exactly a capital for the Goblins, they're more stationed in Org itself. Azshara just has some questlines, and a fort/comically large cannon/town, with little of importance actually happening there. Both Azshara and Gilneas are effectively 'empty' zones.

Yes I did, and they did, but I did not mention punishing them for that. That simply speaks to who we are dealing with, their history, and how much we can trust them. And there is only one Horde, as you know. If you read my posts I never ask for the Horde to be disbanded, destroyed or leaders killed. I simply ask for what would be commons sense in this situation some form or reparation for Theramore and something to ensure that they don't go down this road again in the form of restrictions placed upon the new Horde leadership and perhaps a way to keep an eye on them.

Edit: Azshara was one of my favorite zones before they goblified it. Also I didn't say it was there capital, but it is their zone. Gilneas was actually planned but here were unable to finish it so it got cut.

I agree some people really need to take a step back, and stop with the personal insults.

[akteliae]

Yes I did, and they did, but I did not mention punishing them for that. That simply speaks to who we are dealing with, their history, and how much we can trust them. And there is only one Horde, as you know. If you read my posts I never ask for the Horde to be disbanded, destroyed or leaders killed. I simply ask for what would be commons sense in this situation some form or reparation for Theramore and something to ensure that they don't go down this road again in the form of restrictions placed upon the new Horde leadership and perhaps a way to keep an eye on them.

Edit: Azshara was one of my favorite zones before they goblified it. Also I didn't say it was there capital, but it is their zone. Gilneas was actually planned but here were unable to finish it so it got cut.

I agree some people really need to take a step back, and stop with the personal insults.

The kind of reperations you're asking would only truly be possible if one power drastically outweighed the other as a form of coercion. That's not really the case, despite the current advantage the alliance has *in that particular location.* The Horde is still a massive faction and still a powerful one. Azeroth is still a planet with magical beings.

Placing restrictions breaks the good-faith gesture implied in Varian's trust of Vol'jin (who has always been a pretty good guy in lore) and also just applies a specific ruleset to be broken in the future, which is actually far worse storytelling, due to the nature of the Horde vs Alliance conflict (in that it cannot end for game reasons), and that's without discussing how the Alliance would actually enforce such restrictions.

If you want to put it into real world terms, consider it a military coup to restore power to a more righteous regime. Now consider the allies America. By international law, America (the Alliance) would be violating that nation's sovereignty by interfering with said coup. This has a parallel to criticism over the Egypt situation, in fact.

Any further Alliance interference in the matter, regardless of how it might make you feel, would most likely be to the detriment of the storyline; it would provide too-obvious foreshadowing (something already criticized enough in the game) in the form of the restrictions dealt, and it wouldn't bring back Theramore.

[dirk123]

I liked the ending as an alliance player. Now actually represent the garrison @ Theramore crater and some teams trying to clean up Gilneas in 5.5 (leading to a phased retaken Gilneas in 6.0) and I will be a happy Alliance player.

[PureGenius]

Seriously, still more whining?

There was nothing cool in that cinematic for the horde, except for the Vol'jin fan base. It was entirely alliance based imo. Yes I'm a horde player and yes I agree alliance has been less focused on compared to horde but to whine about this cinematic is crazy, no wonder blizz cannot live up to alliance expectation with this kind of thread.

Wyrnn actually looked a badass and did exactly what a noble king should have and Jaina has finally got some umph to her instead of being a cry baby.

We just got thrall handing warchief to Vol'jin and Garrosh walking out with the pandas.

Not sure how much more you fan boys wanted apart from complete bloodshed between horde and alliance yet that is what MoP has been about - showing the consequences of war and bloodshed between the two factions, and this was a fitting end to tie the last tier of the xpac up.

Would have been a complete ironic and garbage end to have everyone break out in riot so that alliance get to kill some horde icons just to prove a point.

[drasconis]

It was weak - probably for both sides.
Garrosh does not die and gets handed to the Pandas....really they have more claim over him then either his own people or Jaina??? How did they suffer more?

The stuff like issues with Theramore and Gilneas should have been in the cinematic not in some text afterward.

Honestly thought it was done poorly. Honestly it seemed to avoid trying to piss anyone off so much that it was anti-climatic.

[akteliae]

It was weak - probably for both sides.
Garrosh does not die and gets handed to the Pandas....really they have more claim over him then either his own people or Jaina??? How did they suffer more?

The stuff like issues with Theramore and Gilneas should have been in the cinematic not in some text afterward.

Honestly thought it was done poorly. Honestly it seemed to avoid trying to piss anyone off so much that it was anti-climatic.

Garrosh destroyed the Vale, a sacred, ancient place for the Pandaren. The Vale's waters are what cause the Valley of Four Winds to grow the insanely large crops it has. Those crops feed all of Pandaria. With the Vale destroyed, the Valley loses its super-powered water.

He absolutely did hurt the Pandaren more than the Alliance or Horde. Not only did he bring the war to their shores and bring back the Sha, he also caused a chain of events that could lead to the starvation of many more.

[velde046]

Garrosh destroyed the Vale, a sacred, ancient place for the Pandaren. The Vale's waters are what cause the Valley of Four Winds to grow the insanely large crops it has. Those crops feed all of Pandaria. With the Vale destroyed, the Valley loses its super-powered water.

He absolutely did hurt the Pandaren more than the Alliance or Horde. Not only did he bring the war to their shores and bring back the Sha, he also caused a chain of events that could lead to the starvation of many more.

Couldn't agree with you more...