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  1. #61
    No. Just no.


    Infracted for spamming.
    Last edited by mrgreenthump; 2014-01-26 at 08:03 PM.

  2. #62
    Fluffy Kitten LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatness View Post
    No. Just no.
    Actually give criticism when you disagree with something. Just saying no adds nothing to the discussion and doesn't contribute in any way.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Woop Woop View Post
    Totally agree, but with a new resource, fire doesn't even have to stack crit as much.
    Right now, your resource is two procs: Heating Up and Pyroblast! For Frost its Ice Lance procs and Mastery / Icickles.

    There's so much they could do with it, i really think mages are going to get new resource(s) in WOD.
    I'm afraid Fire won't get an overhaul like the one described in this topic. One could dream. But Blizzard has said they want to make feel hunter and rogue more unique within their specs without completely redesigning and did not mention any other class whatsoever.

    If im not mistaken we are the only mana casters except healers that doesn't have another resource.
    Shadow priests has orbs, warlock has their embers, shards and demon thing and balance has eclipse.
    Elemental doesn't have any but yeah...
    Elemental has Lightning Shield stacks. Its just not part of some kind of classbar. But its there. It could be easily made into a classbar (don't see why not!) but a bit strange if the shaman doesn't use Lightning Shield for some reason (esp leveling).
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    Actually give criticism when you disagree with something. Just saying no adds nothing to the discussion and doesn't contribute in any way.
    Maybe he means he doesn't like your proposed changes to Fire. He wouldn't be the only one.

  5. #65

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
    Isnt this just "i want buffs for fire?"
    Not even close.

  7. #67
    Fluffy Kitten LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
    Isnt this just "i want buffs for fire?"
    If you read the thread, I have stated several times that I am trying to make sure things are not OP or broken, and I am not concerned with its DPS placement. Fire is already one of the best specs in the game at high levels, why would it need buffs anyway? This is a proposed change to make the spell more interactive and less archaic in design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corruptsoul View Post
    Maybe he means he doesn't like your proposed changes to Fire. He wouldn't be the only one.
    I don't mind people who disagree, every idea will have an opposing side. I just want constructive criticism so we can form reasoned debate around it. Just saying "no" adds nothing and does not help me craft this. If you just don't like it and have nothing to add, don't post.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Corruptsoul View Post
    Maybe he means he doesn't like your proposed changes to Fire. He wouldn't be the only one.
    Posts which say "I agree" or "I disagree" add nothing of substance to the thread or discussion. This thread isn't a poll of if you like the proposed changes yes or no even though you're obviously free to have such opinion; it is a thread to go in depth about the changes ie. discuss the proposed changes, suggest additions or changes, refine them after criticism, and so on.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Posts which say "I agree" or "I disagree" add nothing of substance to the thread or discussion. This thread isn't a poll of if you like the proposed changes yes or no even though you're obviously free to have such opinion; it is a thread to go in depth about the changes ie. discuss the proposed changes, suggest additions or changes, refine them after criticism, and so on.
    Pretty much this. It is fine for you to disagree, but just saying no, does nothing for this thread, as is it is addressed to every single post and reply in this thread. A simple quote would have made it something, or "I don't like heat".

  10. #70
    I still don't understand what was wrong with the wrath model of mana management, where mana mattered.

    Also I still hate the idea of energy or charging energy mechanics... in my perfect world fire and arcane would work exactly like they did in wrath with maybe an orb spell and the current cooldowns, with frost working pretty much as it does now (but with some mana management).

    I'm also not quite sure of the goal of this thread. I mean, there are certainly some unique ideas, but blizzard isn't exactly known for taking input from places like this (especially considering how many cries there were in the mop beta that went unheeded). Wouldn't it be better to attempt to discern what blizzard may be going for in the future, and work along those lines?

    I mean, it was only one - one! - expansion ago that fire mage was held up as the pinnacle of game design. Is there any doubt that playing a fire mage during cataclysm was anything but amazing fun? (the expac itself notwithstanding, fire was awesome fun.)

    Sometimes I feel like going back to basics of what works - especially with how familiar so many of us are with what a mage is supposed to feel like - that creating this radical design change might really alienate people who lose familiarity.

    I continually think about how much fun I had playing mut rogue in mop. It just felt completely buttery smooth. Like it had been refined to absolute perfection. It has it's flaws, to be sure (poor aoe versus combat, restricted to fast daggers), but the button pressing gameplay of mut rogue in mop is what i felt like fire mage was in cata.

    So why try to reinvent the wheel, instead of going back to basics of what worked? LB baseline for fire, remove bombs for the other specs, give us back flame orb, make the L75/90 talents some kind of utility or aoe v. single target choice, and the L100 talents look pretty neat for what they are. And then put mana management back into mages. I know the gameplay is supposed to be "dps doesn't care about mana" but when people say the game is dumbed down, I feel like it's that kind of decision they are talking about.

    I'm also still so very scarred from the charge system in rift that anything even resembling that PoS system just makes me want to run away like a blood elf dude who just saw a mouse.
    Last edited by Pyromelter; 2014-01-27 at 09:17 AM.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    I still don't understand what was wrong with the wrath model of mana management, where mana mattered.

    Also I still hate the idea of energy or charging energy mechanics... in my perfect world fire and arcane would work exactly like they did in wrath with maybe an orb spell and the current cooldowns, with frost working pretty much as it does now (but with some mana management).
    People didn't like casting Evocation every 2(was it 2?) minutes. So they removed it.. And brought it back as a talent that you couldn't skip, cause maybe in 2 years people found love for evocation ;D

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    People didn't like casting Evocation every 2(was it 2?) minutes. So they removed it.. And brought it back as a talent that you couldn't skip, cause maybe in 2 years people found love for evocation ;D
    That's what blizzard fed us. I don't remember any mage complaining about it as that big of a deal. It was more like a skill that you learned with the encounter, because if you screwed up your evo, it would destroy your dps. It was part of what allowed you to show your skill as a mage. It also made things like mana gems important, even for fire, so that you'd have some way to regen mana even if you totally messed up. It also gave druids a reason to innervate mages as well.

    Mages are/were built around mana. I just don't think we should shy away from our resource as some just willy nilly expendable thing. Casting your evocation at the right time was a sign of not just your own skill but your mastery of each encounter, it made it more immersive, imo.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    That's what blizzard fed us. I don't remember any mage complaining about it as that big of a deal. It was more like a skill that you learned with the encounter, because if you screwed up your evo, it would destroy your dps. It was part of what allowed you to show your skill as a mage. It also made things like mana gems important, even for fire, so that you'd have some way to regen mana even if you totally messed up. It also gave druids a reason to innervate mages as well.

    Mages are/were built around mana. I just don't think we should shy away from our resource as some just willy nilly expendable thing. Casting your evocation at the right time was a sign of not just your own skill but your mastery of each encounter, it made it more immersive, imo.
    I don't think frost and fire should be built around mana as a resource. That would make them too similar to arcane (and let's face it, the 3 specs are already too similar to eachother - keep dot up, keep 90 talent up, use procs, use filler etc).
    It looks like the game is moving towards classes having different resources aside from mana, and current fire design haven't worked at all in MoP (see nerfs).

    But if you don't like the idea of a Heat resource, let us know what changes you want?
    Also, blizzard isn't known for reversing stuff, fire mage gameplay was awesome during cata sure, but i dont see them bringing it back.

  14. #74
    Fluffy Kitten LocNess's Avatar
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    By the end of the expansion, there were very rarely any fights that required you to actually evocate with very good efficiency (and mana gem) due to how high our mana pools were in gear. I didn't raid on my Mage in the early expansion (started in TotC Mage wise), but the only fights I actually had designated Mana Gem/Evocations was Heroic Lich King. Yeah if you went balls to the wall and just completely left Mana alone you could go oom, but I don't recall it ever being an issue. Just evocate at 40% mana and Mana Gem at 85% or whatever it was and you should be fine.

    I never had too much of an issue with WotLK mana model, hell I liked not having fixed mana like we do now (1 Int = 15 mana). I also enjoyed Fire in WotLK and Cata, but it has changed a lot then, and I don't see Blizzard going back on an entire expansions worth of development either (even though this expansion's "development" has been awful). I don't seriously expect this thread to get any attention from them, but I think it does get out there people's current issues of Fire, and what works and what doesn't. Also I hate inferno blast.

  15. #75
    Never thought I'd see a good 'fan-redesign'.

    Very good job OP, you obviously thought this out through and love your class (:

  16. #76
    http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/157642-enhanced-fireball

    When your Fireball fails to critically strike a target, you gain a 5% increased chance for Fireball to be a critical strike for 15 sec.

    This effect ends when Fireball successfully critically strikes a target.
    This will somewhat mitigate the issue of bad luck streaks, and because of that will fix the scaling of fire (for those who want to grow from UP to OP this sucks tho).

    We also got the removal of bombs except the specific one for the mage spec which is a change I applaud.

    Would like to see a 6.0 update on your post based on the current alpha notes, if you'd like to incorporate any of them or if you think its going in the right direction.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Styxz View Post
    Locks didn't need the overhaul either. Now that it's been done though, it highlights the overall outdated class design in the game, particularly among pures.

    Each of the warlock specs feels/plays completely different from the others. There's almost no overlap outside of talents, mana, glyphs, some CDs and Corruption (demo/aff). Everything else aside, can we say the same for mages? Can we say the same for the other pures?

    I'm not saying the OP has the answers (Sway). But this type of discussion is exactly what the community needs. It's the feedback Blizzard needs. The majority of players don't give a damn about balance really. They only care that the game is fun. As designers, it's up to Blizz to make the game fun first, and balanced second - even if the two are/should be closely related.

    Without even getting into damage, Warlocks are among the best designed classes in the game. Now that Pandora's Box is open, who can blame players like the OP (and myself, shit) for wanting more thoughtful, more inspired gameplay from our class than what MOP has given us.

    Also, sorry for the necro. I was going to start a new thread, but I don't want it to get locked for being too similar to threads like this one. If there's somewhere else I should post this let me know Swizzle.

    Do you still play btw? I forget if you ever left Illidan or not.

    Peace.
    This this this and this ONE billion times.

    "Need" is kinda subjective. BUT if specs are not different (and by different I mean REALLY different), whats the point of having 3 specs? To shoot 3 colored bolts? To apply DoT (half gone in WOD, I know) -> nuke -> proc -> use CD all day long regardless of spec?

    In short:

    - Many people complains about fire being sloooowwww, somewhat boring spec to play, and also too crit dependant. Do we really believe tweaking some numbers, changing a spell or two will fix it? It needs changes to the CORE.

    - Many people complains about arcane not having actual mana management. It doesn't right now (its not even debatable)! Why not overhaul it?

    - Mana is iconic for casters but it's also useless for mages (except arcane). Why not remove it (except for arcane)?;

    - Destro and demo locks have somewhat endless resource generation and they are not dominating PvP. So I may ask what's really the issue about heat being somewhat endless????

    And yes, if warlocks got it (and I loved it - always played a lock as my "2nd main", so I'm not complaining), all pures can claim it.
    Last edited by Fennixx; 2014-04-15 at 03:44 AM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Fennixx View Post
    - Many people complains about fire being sloooowwww, somewhat boring spec to play, and also too crit dependant. Do we really believe tweaking some numbers, changing a spell or two will fix it? It needs changes to the CORE.
    I enjoy fire gameplay and don't think it needs changes at its core. Being slow is part of its identity of casting big, slow fireballs. Not every spec has to fast, our other specs are faster and this provides gameplay variety between specs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fennixx View Post
    - Many people complains about arcane not having actual mana management. It doesn't right now (its not even debatable)! Why not overhaul it?
    This is factually incorrect. With our mastery, our mana level has a significant impact on total fight damage. If I'm not paying attention to my mana I can burn away too much mana and will notice my total dps being lower after the boss is down. When the boss is low health I try to burn my mana to convert it to as much damage as possible, these are examples of mana management.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fennixx View Post
    And yes, if warlocks got it (and I loved it - always played a lock as my "2nd main", so I'm not complaining), all pures can claim it.
    All pures can claim it? Developers don't assign abilities to classes based on claims by the community. If anything, saying "they have it so why shouldn't I have it?" will prove to the developers that they shouldn't give it to you since they aim to increase variety between classes and specs.

  19. #79
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathos View Post
    This is factually incorrect. With our mastery, our mana level has a significant impact on total fight damage. If I'm not paying attention to my mana I can burn away too much mana and will notice my total dps being lower after the boss is down. When the boss is low health I try to burn my mana to convert it to as much damage as possible, these are examples of mana management.
    The fact that the highest efficiency rotation is also the highest damage means there is no mana management involved, QED.

    All pures can claim it? Developers don't assign abilities to classes based on claims by the community. If anything, saying "they have it so why shouldn't I have it?" will prove to the developers that they shouldn't give it to you since they aim to increase variety between classes and specs.
    Despite the fact that the entire reason people want a redesign is because the warlock revamp demonstrated that pure classes can be differentiated in terms of identity and playstyle if sufficient effort is put in on the part of the developers. Personally I don't buy that crap about the revamp "driving people away".
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
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  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    The fact that the highest efficiency rotation is also the highest damage means there is no mana management involved, QED.
    Efficiency means it takes damage per mana into account, aka mana management. Also the standard rotation isn't the highest damage for all fight durations.

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