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  1. #21
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eschatonin View Post
    This is pretty well thought out, and I really like it. You've managed to emphasise the concepts of fire and implement them into great mechanics.
    The only thing that I would question is the absolute removal of mana, but the only drainer of mana nowadays is Spell Steal, which you have addressed.

    Now I want to do one for Arcane...
    I don't see a point in sticking with Mana when we do not use it whatsoever. Yeah your mana drops, but it is never an issue where you might go oom that it used to be. Mana is pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzle View Post
    Here's the thing, none of our specs need an actual overhaul of this nature. Passive and mechanical changes, sure, but not something on the level that Warlocks got. Also, you can't simply say you're looking at PvE and ignoring PvP...Blizzard won't, which makes all your points moot from the get go.
    I am not ignoring PvP, it is just not the main focus at the moment. My points are not moot from the get go just because PvP is not the main focus, as I did state that I put thought into PvP for the spec to make sure it wasn't crazy. If you can find any PvP problems, point them out. Also Fire needs some sort of change because right now the spec has had a horrible track record. I don't want to go through another expansion of nerfs every patch just because of how it scales, and I am sure many players who main a Mage feel the same. The class is archaic overall and really needs a fixer upper.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    I am not ignoring PvP, it is just not the main focus at the moment. My points are not moot from the get go just because PvP is not the main focus, as I did state that I put thought into PvP for the spec to make sure it wasn't crazy. If you can find any PvP problems, point them out. Also Fire needs some sort of change because right now the spec has had a horrible track record. I don't want to go through another expansion of nerfs every patch just because of how it scales, and I am sure many players who main a Mage feel the same. The class is archaic overall and really needs a fixer upper.
    Ranged caster without mana constraints that gains damage as it deals damage. That alone is silly and mechanically doesn't need to happen. Further, your DB idea is quite broken as it is, so you should probably change it so it's somehow balanced in PvP. In any case, some of the changes (like FS and BW) feel uninspired. It's not a bad first draft, but seriously, Mages don't need the level of overhaul you are presenting here. You can fix scaling without introducing a new resource and removing another.

  3. #23
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzle View Post
    Ranged caster without mana constraints that gains damage as it deals damage. That alone is silly and mechanically doesn't need to happen.
    Why is it a silly idea? Arcane is the same, you just have to manage mana along with your charges. I
    Further, your DB idea is quite broken as it is, so you should probably change it so it's somehow balanced in PvP. In any case, some of the changes (like FS and BW) feel uninspired.
    Why is it overpowered? Dragon's Breath stun breaks on damage IIRC, and even if it did not I already addressed this version would in the thread.

    It's not a bad first draft, but seriously, Mages don't need the level of overhaul you are presenting here. You can fix scaling without introducing a new resource and removing another.
    Suggestions then? Forums entire expansion in regards to fire has been 95% bitching and 5% trying to find a solution the problem. If Blizzard can possibly get some helpful community feedback, maybe there is a chance for change in the right direction.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    Why is it a silly idea? Arcane is the same, you just have to manage mana along with your charges.
    Because there is no counter play when there is no mana. You can run any other caster OOM, if you make one caster that you can't, they instantly have an advantage over others that would fill the role. Further, you really give no reason to ever spend heat other than to CC, so in PvP there is no interesting gameplay, for the Mage or his opponent.

    Why is it overpowered? Dragon's Breath stun breaks on damage IIRC, and even if it did not I already addressed this version would in the thread.
    Polymorph breaks on damage, so does RoF. Breaking on damage doesn't negate the fact that you just removed someone from the game for 10 seconds. Disorients don't share many DRs, so you would DRASTICALLY need to lower that duration to make it fair in PvP.


    Suggestions then? Forums entire expansion in regards to fire has been 95% bitching and 5% trying to find a solution the problem. If Blizzard can possibly get some helpful community feedback, maybe there is a chance for change in the right direction.
    We have an entire sticky dedicated to this very thing. If you want my honest opinion on the matter, though, then okay. Most of the people who contributed the most to actual balance and mechanics discussions no longer play the game. More recent additions to the fold actually tend to be very narrow minded and ignore much of the game in order to make the spec they play play how they want, without any care on how it affects the game as a whole.

  5. #25
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzle View Post
    Because there is no counter play when there is no mana. You can run any other caster OOM, if you make one caster that you can't, they instantly have an advantage over others that would fill the role. Further, you really give no reason to ever spend heat other than to CC, so in PvP there is no interesting gameplay, for the Mage or his opponent.
    When do Mages have issues with mana during PvP though? Frost spells (besides Frozen Orb) are rather low on mana cost, and you have Mana Gem + Evocation (or invocation which makes mana even more of a joke), or Incanter's Ward/ROP that increases your Mana Regen a ton. Now I do not play at a 2200 level and have barely done arenas this expansion, but through the ones I have done in T14 and the BGs I have done this expansion, I have never had mana issues.

    And heat is spent on CC and Pyro. It wouldn't be capping it at 100 the entire time. It would have ramp up, and it decays as well. The decay rate can be amended if it is not fast enough. I think I have it placed at 5p5? Maybe 10p5 would be more fair.


    Polymorph breaks on damage, so does RoF. Breaking on damage doesn't negate the fact that you just removed someone from the game for 10 seconds. Disorients don't share many DRs, so you would DRASTICALLY need to lower that duration to make it fair in PvP.
    Rogues can take people out with a large combination of abilities. Granted they have lower defenses than we do. If it is an issue it can be reduced to 5 seconds at max heat and then a Base of 3 seconds, or something along those lines.


    We have an entire sticky dedicated to this very thing. If you want my honest opinion on the matter, though, then okay. Most of the people who contributed the most to actual balance and mechanics discussions no longer play the game. More recent additions to the fold actually tend to be very narrow minded and ignore much of the game in order to make the spec they play play how they want, without any care on how it affects the game as a whole.
    I find that to be a large problem in the community. That is my main issue with Lhivera getting all the praise he does on the official Mage forums. He can run numbers, but he doesn't actually play the class at any level above just being a level 90. I agree a lot of proposed changes though are just "buff combustion 1000% so we can do damage again kthx" or dumb stuff that is not fair at all to other classes. This spec would be overpowered at current numbers, which is why I proposed nerfs to Fireball and Pyroblast.

  6. #26
    Mechagnome Zatetic's Avatar
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    I cant help but think it would be better if it was a trade off resource.

    Like more heat = more crit chance and more damage but slower cast times or longer icd.

  7. #27
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zatetic View Post
    I cant help but think it would be better if it was a trade off resource.

    Like more heat = more crit chance and more damage but slower cast times or longer icd.
    I wouldn't mind the idea at all of it being a secondary resource to boost stats. It would just have to be implemented well to not just be a damage booster.

  8. #28
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    Interesting concept; but honestly pointless as Blizzard have already announced they will very likely not go through with another overhaul similar to that which Warlocks got.

    If you're going to go through with your Heat mechanic, you'll need to change a lot of the spell passives and Mastery.
    Think about it realistically from a PvP PoV (again; as much as you want to ignore it, it won't be) having 100 Heat gives you 30% crit, right?
    At 90 Heat you've got 27% free crit and can cast a Scorch. This is incredibly likely to crit and it's also likely you'll have a HU at some point previously; leaving you with a near-100 or 100 heat free Pyroblast which you can also follow up with ANOTHER max-heat Pyroblast.

    The snowball potential within your design is far, FAR too high, especially with your Combustion mechanic increasing heat gains by 100%.

    If you're going to add heat as a resource within the game, you have to include resource management into it (ie, actually punishing bad play) else, as Swizzle points out, it will have an advantage. All heat mechanics in games (Bounty Hunters in SW:TOR, for example) have punishing factors when you're close to over-heating; your mechanics reward staying at high heat, and in theory it's possible to get stupid Pyro-chains off which are given 30% free crit, doing maximum potential damage from mastery and are un-interruptible outside of hard CC. Even from a PvE perspective, that's far too strong.

    I do like the fact you're trying to bring in secondary resources for Mages; but it won't happen so, IMO, is relatively pointless to discuss.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Aven Reddins View Post
    If crit continues to be fire's best stat then I think fire should get increased damage from crit itself, like a destro lock's chaos bolt does.
    This is I believe the single most significant input into this thread.

    Not to criticize LocNess who obviously put a lot of time and effort into creative design alternatives. My experience tells me the mage community freaks out when small changes are made, I can imagine the backlash/complaints if a complete overhaul is attempted. (Unless it actually works)

    That's why I think the single biggest design change for fire mages evolves around crit and mastery. Let's see: Arcane mastery - tied to mana...makes sense, arcane dps is certainly focused on mana. Frost mastery - increased dmg to frozen targets...why this makes sense too. Fire - mastery tied to ignite (a dot)...what? I get the fire...burn association, but currently we're not burning anything, not since Blizz nerf'd combustion, the single biggest benefactor to our mastery design. Changing our mastery to leverage crit seems like the logical solution.

    I guess i'll continue to spam nether tempest since this is my number 1 dmg spell atm. We are no longer glass cannon's...we are glass sprinklers.

  10. #30
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylonia View Post
    This is I believe the single most significant input into this thread.

    Not to criticize LocNess who obviously put a lot of time and effort into creative design alternatives. My experience tells me the mage community freaks out when small changes are made, I can imagine the backlash/complaints if a complete overhaul is attempted. (Unless it actually works)

    That's why I think the single biggest design change for fire mages evolves around crit and mastery. Let's see: Arcane mastery - tied to mana...makes sense, arcane dps is certainly focused on mana. Frost mastery - increased dmg to frozen targets...why this makes sense too. Fire - mastery tied to ignite (a dot)...what? I get the fire...burn association, but currently we're not burning anything, not since Blizz nerf'd combustion, the single biggest benefactor to our mastery design. Changing our mastery to leverage crit seems like the logical solution.

    I guess i'll continue to spam nether tempest since this is my number 1 dmg spell atm. We are no longer glass cannon's...we are glass sprinklers.
    I'd rather just have them incorporate a Crit Damage stat more often to the game, because even if it is tied into our mastery, by endgame we will have enough passive crit and mastery to repull insane numbers and scaling will still be an issue unfortunately.

  11. #31
    Nice ideas but Blizz said for a couple of times now that they dont want to change classes/specs too much because most people (sadly) dont want to re-learn playing it (OMGSOHARDPLAYIQUIT) not sure if thats only meant during expansion or not though. For me change is like a fresh breeze when i open a window after a full-blown night out, but hey if majority wants to press 5 same buttons each year they come back for a few months thats how its gonna be.

  12. #32
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    I appreciate the work you have put into this, but I don't think your ideas are very good. Gaining damage while doing damage and removing mana. I think those are pretty bad. Still no real propositions of an actual and reliable aoe, I'm getting quite sick of being able to cleave like mad one expansion and struggling with aoe the next. Blizzard should do something about the mechanics of fire, but not to this extent, they better look at fire's aoe as well, mage aoe as a whole too. I'm not talking about talents because those will change for sure (the outcry since the beginning of MoP is huge), they really flopped there with mage 90 talents. And last the visuals, I think the mage is in a dire need of updated visuals, warlock's pets have better ones...

    Actually, I really like the meteor idea. Warlocks have Rain of Fire, FIRE mages don't.
    Last edited by Asmodeas; 2013-10-02 at 06:55 AM.

  13. #33
    Field Marshal Vouxility's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodeas View Post
    Actually, I really like the meteor idea.
    THIS would be great, well yeah a redesign about the visuals would be needed but changes like this are even better. Great Idea

  14. #34
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    Looks to me that outside of your 100heat cost CD, you would be better spamming fireball at 100 heat and just using any pyro procs you get or force with IB, pretty much what is happening right now afaik.

    I don't want to take away from the effort and I like the idea, but I honestly don't think a rework of this nature is really needed at all. Maybe a decent mastery change or something similar.

    Good effort nice ideas, just not sure about them working.

    PS I love the Phoenix Cooldown and the Meteor!

  15. #35
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaja View Post
    Looks to me that outside of your 100heat cost CD, you would be better spamming fireball at 100 heat and just using any pyro procs you get or force with IB, pretty much what is happening right now afaik.

    I don't want to take away from the effort and I like the idea, but I honestly don't think a rework of this nature is really needed at all. Maybe a decent mastery change or something similar.

    Good effort nice ideas, just not sure about them working.

    PS I love the Phoenix Cooldown and the Meteor!
    That could be true, Crit per Heat value might need to be tuned down a bit. Again, I don't have the ability nor the power to create a simulation to find this out unfortunately.

  16. #36
    I dont care how its done but fire in. its current incantation is the most boring spec in the game

  17. #37
    I'm sorry, I just really don't like the resource system, I didn't like it before, I haven't changed my mind. It looks like you have created a system that is similar to rage.

    Rage is the WORST power system in the game, it's not even funny how terribly awkward and awful that it is, no no no no... just no.

    If you want to make fire mages play with a resource, have it be mana.

    Here's my idea: Go back to the wrath model of mana. Your mana slowly drains over an encounter. You are tuned to be forced to evocate once every 3 minutes. You screw up your evocate, your dps goes in the toilet. You get your evocate right, and you continue to do maximum dps. AoE spells should be buffed, but spamming AoE should drain your mana quickly - just like in wrath. This would also make mana gems useful again to more than just arcane mages.

    Either way, I want a large mana pool. Not an empty rage bar I have to fill with fireballs. I cannot even tell you how bad I think that idea is. It sounds worse than the charge system in Rift. I know Swizzle knows how bad it is, since I saw Swizzle in Rift once upon a time. Charge is bad. Rage is bad. 100 point energy systems for mages - bad bad bad.

    If we require some sort of combo point system as a secondary resource, I won't like it, but I'd rather have that than to deal with another terrible rage-type system.

    Edit: I do like the spell ideas (meteor, phoenix). It's just washed in with such a terrible resource system, it gets lost in my ire of the idea as a whole.
    Last edited by Pyromelter; 2013-10-03 at 05:31 AM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    Don't really understand your first point on crit scaling too much, but I am extremely tired so might just be misreading it.
    Ah you were tired well I can tell you that if you don't grasp my first line then you do not understand a core element of fire mage (yet you designed an overhaul). What I described is an issue related to fire balancing which is difficult to address. When you are undergeared you're not critting much and you don't scale, but once you start to reach certain crit plateaus your damage goes up exponentially (not linear). Or, when you just dinged you scale good and once you gear up you scale insanely well. I suppose a way to deal with it is putting crits on CD or something, relating it somehow to heat, but I am not sure about this solution and wonder if there are better ones available. The issue has been around forever, and other crit-based classes such as warrior also suffer from it.

    Dragon's Breath CC breaks on Damage, no different than using Blind on a target.
    Sure, but Blind has a 2 minute CD, is single target. Your Dragon's Breath is AoE and apparently doesn't have a CD.

    If they can make Frozen Orb work, they can make Flame orb work. I used it plenty in Cata and don't remember having issues with it.
    You don't remember having issues with Flame Orb in Cataclysm OK then I wonder what level you were playing WoW back then. Flame Orb was usually a DPS loss in many situations. Flame Orb had various pathing issues for example it'd entirely miss doing damage to the target it would be near (especially if the target stood next to you from what I remember). It could not be used from max range either. Frozen Orb is much more AoE-like and it does not suffer from the pathing issues; its goal is to serve in AoE situations for direct damage as well as procs. Completely different from Flame Orb, and the likelyhood the pathing issues occur are both less as well as less severe.
    Last edited by lolalola; 2013-10-08 at 02:45 PM.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Flame Orb was usually a DPS loss in many situations. Flame Orb had various pathing issues for example it'd entirely miss doing damage to the target it would be near (especially if the target stood next to you from what I remember). It could not be used from max range either. Frozen Orb is much more AoE-like and it does not suffer from the pathing issues; its goal is to serve in AoE situations for direct damage as well as procs. Completely different from Flame Orb, and the likelyhood the pathing issues occur are both less as well as less severe.
    ...flame orb's pathing could be fixed to match frozen orb, although my memory is that the pathing issues were exactly the same.

    Outside of that, it wasn't a dps loss, it was worth to cast it on single target as well as serving as excellent direct damage on AoE, so I'm sort of wondering if you are maybe not quite remembering flame orb all that well. It has been like a year and a half since we've had the spell.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Swizzlington View Post
    Here's the thing, none of our specs need an actual overhaul of this nature. Passive and mechanical changes, sure, but not something on the level that Warlocks got. Also, you can't simply say you're looking at PvE and ignoring PvP...Blizzard won't, which makes all your points moot from the get go.
    Locks didn't need the overhaul either. Now that it's been done though, it highlights the overall outdated class design in the game, particularly among pures.

    Each of the warlock specs feels/plays completely different from the others. There's almost no overlap outside of talents, mana, glyphs, some CDs and Corruption (demo/aff). Everything else aside, can we say the same for mages? Can we say the same for the other pures?

    I'm not saying the OP has the answers (Sway). But this type of discussion is exactly what the community needs. It's the feedback Blizzard needs. The majority of players don't give a damn about balance really. They only care that the game is fun. As designers, it's up to Blizz to make the game fun first, and balanced second - even if the two are/should be closely related.

    Without even getting into damage, Warlocks are among the best designed classes in the game. Now that Pandora's Box is open, who can blame players like the OP (and myself, shit) for wanting more thoughtful, more inspired gameplay from our class than what MOP has given us.

    Also, sorry for the necro. I was going to start a new thread, but I don't want it to get locked for being too similar to threads like this one. If there's somewhere else I should post this let me know Swizzle.

    Do you still play btw? I forget if you ever left Illidan or not.

    Peace.
    "We all cry for something different. However, when something different really does come along, we just want something familiar." Dakia, SW:TOR Forum Mod.

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