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  1. #41
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Styxz View Post
    Locks didn't need the overhaul either. Now that it's been done though, it highlights the overall outdated class design in the game, particularly among pures.

    Each of the warlock specs feels/plays completely different from the others. There's almost no overlap outside of talents, mana, glyphs, some CDs and Corruption (demo/aff). Everything else aside, can we say the same for mages? Can we say the same for the other pures?

    I'm not saying the OP has the answers (Sway). But this type of discussion is exactly what the community needs. It's the feedback Blizzard needs. The majority of players don't give a damn about balance really. They only care that the game is fun. As designers, it's up to Blizz to make the game fun first, and balanced second - even if the two are/should be closely related.

    Without even getting into damage, Warlocks are among the best designed classes in the game. Now that Pandora's Box is open, who can blame players like the OP (and myself, shit) for wanting more thoughtful, more inspired gameplay from our class than what MOP has given us.

    Also, sorry for the necro. I was going to start a new thread, but I don't want it to get locked for being too similar to threads like this one. If there's somewhere else I should post this let me know Swizzle.

    Do you still play btw? I forget if you ever left Illidan or not.

    Peace.
    Couple of my redesign threads have been boosted form a couple months of death before. The redesign is still relevant so it isn't useless, I was just not contributing much to it at the time. Thank you for your input however.

    EDIT: There are also a bunch of ideas I saw over the last few months of ideas I liked, just not aimed at this thread such as Heat being a debuff, and how mechanics would work around that I might throw input at.
    Last edited by LocNess; 2014-01-24 at 02:19 AM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    ...flame orb's pathing could be fixed to match frozen orb, although my memory is that the pathing issues were exactly the same.

    Outside of that, it wasn't a dps loss, it was worth to cast it on single target as well as serving as excellent direct damage on AoE, so I'm sort of wondering if you are maybe not quite remembering flame orb all that well. It has been like a year and a half since we've had the spell.
    Yes my memory is vague I admit. I think the DPS loss issue with it was resolved eventually, but not with every spec. It most certainly was not always worth casting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Styxz View Post
    Locks didn't need the overhaul either.
    They did. They were tough and complex to play. A shadow had an easier rotation and did just the same damage. If that is the case you know something is wrong. And it was not tuning.

    What I just do not get is that instead of making the mage specs more unique, Blizzard made them more the same by doing exactly what they removed from locks: allowing the mage to use certain spells which used to be unique to a certain spec. For me, a fire mage will always be about fire magic and now that Blizzard has changed this I don't enjoy playing my mage anymore.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Yes my memory is vague I admit. I think the DPS loss issue with it was resolved eventually, but not with every spec. It most certainly was not always worth casting.

    They did. They were tough and complex to play. A shadow had an easier rotation and did just the same damage. If that is the case you know something is wrong. And it was not tuning.

    What I just do not get is that instead of making the mage specs more unique, Blizzard made them more the same by doing exactly what they removed from locks: allowing the mage to use certain spells which used to be unique to a certain spec. For me, a fire mage will always be about fire magic and now that Blizzard has changed this I don't enjoy playing my mage anymore.
    Exactly. We are in a very similar place as locks were pre-mop. Our talents are a mess and each spec is functionally the same. Lvl 90 maintainence -> Bomb -> CD w/ Alter Time-> Proc -> Nuke

    The situation is much the same with rogues, though a bit worse IMO. I can't speak for hunters.

    Blizz (and the community) need to talk about what these specs are about. This is no longer clear for mages and the other pures, if it ever was all. That's a more pressing issue than numbers imo.

  4. #44
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Slight new changes in review. Nerfed Dragons Breath to be a 0.5 second stun per 10 heat, up to a maximum of 5 seconds with 100 heat use. Also am okay with the idea of having a Mana bar so things like Counterspell and other non fire spells are not affected by heat cost, while keeping a heat bar for fire spells and cooldowns. Also meteor is being implemented with 100 talents so it is likely going to be in the game now for us, but not Fire only.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    Slight new changes in review. Nerfed Dragons Breath to be a 0.5 second stun per 10 heat, up to a maximum of 5 seconds with 100 heat use. Also am okay with the idea of having a Mana bar so things like Counterspell and other non fire spells are not affected by heat cost, while keeping a heat bar for fire spells and cooldowns. Also meteor is being implemented with 100 talents so it is likely going to be in the game now for us, but not Fire only.
    I would argue that an ability like Counterspell should have zero cost (whether mana or some other resource like heat). The premise being, if you're using an ability whose sole purpose is to interrupt, it probably means that interrupt is very important. Not being able to use said ability because of limited resources is... frustrating (and not just limited to Mages).

    Of course the CD on said ability does still need to be reasonable to prevent spamming in PvP.

  6. #46
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonny888 View Post
    I would argue that an ability like Counterspell should have zero cost (whether mana or some other resource like heat). The premise being, if you're using an ability whose sole purpose is to interrupt, it probably means that interrupt is very important. Not being able to use said ability because of limited resources is... frustrating (and not just limited to Mages).

    Of course the CD on said ability does still need to be reasonable to prevent spamming in PvP.
    Yeah that is fair. Having mana for anything outside of Fire spells I think is useless (and mana is also uselss currently in 5.4), but people were arguing for missing Mana since it makes them "feel like wizards" so I am wanting to appease that crowd.

  7. #47
    Alter Time is IMNSHO a piece of garbage. It should be about utility and survival, not snapshotting procs. It has very little to do with skill, and far too much with RNG. I'm pretty sure Blizz will change it after this tier; they pretty much said that much.

    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    Slight new changes in review. Nerfed Dragons Breath to be a 0.5 second stun per 10 heat, up to a maximum of 5 seconds with 100 heat use. Also am okay with the idea of having a Mana bar so things like Counterspell and other non fire spells are not affected by heat cost, while keeping a heat bar for fire spells and cooldowns. Also meteor is being implemented with 100 talents so it is likely going to be in the game now for us, but not Fire only.
    Mana is totally OK for mage specs as one of the resources. It works for Destruction, Demonology, AND Affliction while keeping the spec's resource intact. It is a simple resource; nothing like the importance it has for healers. And even for healers it is debatable this late in the expansion although not as bad as WotLK/Cata. For warlock it basically means you need to time your Life Taps, and you cannot just spam Fel Flame or Soul Fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonny888 View Post
    I would argue that an ability like Counterspell should have zero cost (whether mana or some other resource like heat). The premise being, if you're using an ability whose sole purpose is to interrupt, it probably means that interrupt is very important. Not being able to use said ability because of limited resources is... frustrating (and not just limited to Mages).
    DKs Mind Freeze was changed for this reason but they're a melee. You could still glyph it to reduce the CD by 1 sec but this also increases RP cost from 0 to 10. Strangulate costs 1 blood rune and has a 1 min CD but it also does a silence which can be improved by a glyph. Mages also have Frostjaw.

    I believe mana is an OK resource for casters. Its importance is marginal for especially caster DPS but not neglectable. My beef with mana is the amount is large and this is a bit silly since everyone thinks in % anyway. So I hope Blizz homogenizes it a bit more and just uses 100 mana in WoD. No need to overcomplify the #.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  8. #48
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    *snip*
    My only issue with Mana for us right now is that outside of Arcane, it isn't a concern for Frost or Fire. Frost you can run oom and have to cut your buff early by re-invocating (which is a PITA), however outside of that instance, this entire expansion when was the last time you ran oom as a Fire Mage, or Frost just in general? The bar could just not be there and barely anything would change, especially since Evo doesn't have a CD with Invocation specced.

  9. #49
    Yes very different from the DK resource system (runes and runic power), as well as the warlock. Fel Flame's cost and Soul Fire's cost force the warlock into not being able to spam them. Does mage need such a thing? I'd say on bombs to prevent huge multidotting. As a shadow priest its a bad pathetic how a mage does higher multidot with less effort (nether tempest) but I liked mage more when bombs were part of the signature of the spec anyway. There are two choices to make here: remove mana, or make it matter a bit more (esp for fire I guess). I have experienced the same as frost. Don't know why or how (if it is my gameplay failing or just bad RNG) if it is the former fair enough, if it is the latter that is just annoying.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  10. #50
    You do realize that Arcane and Frost both get RNG fucked as well right? There have been plenty of times where you don't get AM procs when you need them on the opener. Same goes for frost, to make sweeping generalizations that no other spec suffers what the fire mage goes through is silly and plain ignorant. It's the fundamentals of how the classes were developed, how procs work, and how RNG trinkets are. Too much over dramatizing in your initial post imo. The whole post reads as if a 15 year old girl wrote it about her BF breaking up with her.

  11. #51
    what they should do is make each fireball cast makes our crit chance go up by 1% stacking up to a maximum 10,15 or even 20 stacks.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by DoffyKing View Post
    what they should do is make each fireball cast makes our crit chance go up by 1% stacking up to a maximum 10,15 or even 20 stacks.
    Might be interested, but why only fireball. Why not the rest as well? And how long will the buff stay? Won't it be hard to balance in PvP? Classes which rely a lot on crit are already tough to balance.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  13. #53
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corruptsoul View Post
    You do realize that Arcane and Frost both get RNG fucked as well right? There have been plenty of times where you don't get AM procs when you need them on the opener. Same goes for frost, to make sweeping generalizations that no other spec suffers what the fire mage goes through is silly and plain ignorant. It's the fundamentals of how the classes were developed, how procs work, and how RNG trinkets are. Too much over dramatizing in your initial post imo. The whole post reads as if a 15 year old girl wrote it about her BF breaking up with her.

    That is a bit harsh. However, RNG differentials on Frost and Arcane won't swing your DPS near the way Fire does. Frost has the least issues overall, and Arcane you can get RNG screwed, however there are also ways on fights to not have to worry too much by stack camping and multi dotting that it isn't too much of an issue. Fire only gets really set in to avoid that by 565+ gear, and even then crit can vary by up to 7% and 10% on a fight. The fundamentals are broken when a majority of a spec can't be played by a large percentage of the class without awful DPS, and after an expansions worth of nerfing just to keep it in line. There is no problem designing a class around RNG, all procs and trinkets are obviously RNG (though trinkets apply to every class, so not really relevant), but there is a problem when you have to consistently raise a specs requirements in order for it to not go overboard.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DoffyKing View Post
    what they should do is make each fireball cast makes our crit chance go up by 1% stacking up to a maximum 10,15 or even 20 stacks.
    As lola said, need a lot more info there for how long it stays, do pyros drop the effect, etc. etc. Also keeps the spec as boring and non interactive as it is today.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Yes very different from the DK resource system (runes and runic power), as well as the warlock. Fel Flame's cost and Soul Fire's cost force the warlock into not being able to spam them. Does mage need such a thing? I'd say on bombs to prevent huge multidotting. As a shadow priest its a bad pathetic how a mage does higher multidot with less effort (nether tempest) but I liked mage more when bombs were part of the signature of the spec anyway. There are two choices to make here: remove mana, or make it matter a bit more (esp for fire I guess). I have experienced the same as frost. Don't know why or how (if it is my gameplay failing or just bad RNG) if it is the former fair enough, if it is the latter that is just annoying.
    Blizzard has said Mages will not be multi-dotting next expansion IIRC, so don't need to worry about that too much. I do agree I wish Nether Tempest was Arcane only, Frost Bomb for Frost, and LB for Fire (which would also give up an entire tier of talents for us).

  14. #54
    I really like the idea of fire having a heat resource, thumbs up!

  15. #55
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woop Woop View Post
    I really like the idea of fire having a heat resource, thumbs up!
    Thank you. Again I wouldn't mind having it implemented otherways, such as a debuff on the target that increases your damage to it, or crit damage and crit, etc etc. I just think it would be fun to rock a new resource.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    Thank you. Again I wouldn't mind having it implemented otherways, such as a debuff on the target that increases your damage to it, or crit damage and crit, etc etc. I just think it would be fun to rock a new resource.
    Totally agree, but with a new resource, fire doesn't even have to stack crit as much.
    There's so much they could do with it, i really think mages are going to get new resource(s) in WOD.
    If im not mistaken we are the only mana casters except healers that doesn't have another resource.
    Shadow priests has orbs, warlock has their embers, shards and demon thing and balance has eclipse.
    Elemental doesn't have any but yeah...

  17. #57
    The idea of Heat as secondary resource is around for quite some time isnt it?

    I would like to see a more Pyromancer-esque design (=spreading dots, much aoe power) for Firemages like Blizzard tryed in Cata. In the end its very difficult to balance because either the spec is too weak pure singletarget or completely OP once AoE or Multidotting is involved.

  18. #58
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liebchen View Post
    The idea of Heat as secondary resource is around for quite some time isnt it?

    I would like to see a more Pyromancer-esque design (=spreading dots, much aoe power) for Firemages like Blizzard tryed in Cata. In the end its very difficult to balance because either the spec is too weak pure singletarget or completely OP once AoE or Multidotting is involved.
    I think with the introduction of Cleave tertiary stats, it could potentially be interesting to have more cleave oriented classes for multi dot situations, but weaker single target. Hell, Frost Mages are at that point right now. Solid single target, but extremely good cleave. Same with Ele shamans. A good one can't be beat on Galakras. I don't think there is much of an issue if the class is very strong in multi target situations, but weaker single target, each spec should have its strengths.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Woop Woop View Post
    Totally agree, but with a new resource, fire doesn't even have to stack crit as much.
    There's so much they could do with it, i really think mages are going to get new resource(s) in WOD.
    If im not mistaken we are the only mana casters except healers that doesn't have another resource.
    Shadow priests has orbs, warlock has their embers, shards and demon thing and balance has eclipse.
    Elemental doesn't have any but yeah...
    To be fair we have alternate resources for each spec. Arcane has charges, Frost has FoF (and kinda Icicles) and Fire has HS. Our alt resources just aren't as fleshed out as other classes.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Corruptsoul View Post
    You do realize that Arcane and Frost both get RNG fucked as well right? There have been plenty of times where you don't get AM procs when you need them on the opener. Same goes for frost, to make sweeping generalizations that no other spec suffers what the fire mage goes through is silly and plain ignorant. It's the fundamentals of how the classes were developed, how procs work, and how RNG trinkets are. Too much over dramatizing in your initial post imo. The whole post reads as if a 15 year old girl wrote it about her BF breaking up with her.
    Frost? It's probably a 0.5-1% dps difference if you get a FFB proc in the opener. Sure, lack of AM procs for an Arcane Mage would suck a bit more, but the fire RNG in early patches (which is what this thread is about when it complains about the RNG) isn't even comparable to any other spec in the game.

    Or maybe you haven't even touched a fire mage in a x.0 patch?

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