Thread: Jaina

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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyCasual View Post
    you know, i kinda understand her reactions tbh. She put her trust in the horde and thrall, even though she was within her rights to to completely mistrust and despise the horde given its past and she was betrayed. Sure its not as simple as that but that is easy to say when you have the luxery of being impartial and you are not the one in her shoes.
    I still remember that scene in WCIII where she was told she had to work together with the Horde, and her first reaction was 'Unite with them?! Are you mad?!'

  2. #302
    Jaina just need a night with Kalec

  3. #303
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deamon002 View Post
    Which is why after smacking the Horde races down (the ones you don't make a deal with anyway) you help them get back on their feet. Extend trade opportunities based on actual mutual benefit rather than threats like the 'trade' between the night elves and orcs before Garrosh went off his meds.
    That only works if, the population actually accepts them and does not fight back in guerilla style, until they are in a position to overthrow the occupation force.

    So? Numbers don't mean much when you're better armed and hold a fortified position. A small garrison occupying a small castle can maintain control over a much larger population. It's been done in medieval Europe hundreds of times. Plenty of Alliance know magic, too, especially if they can convince the blood elves to sit it out, so that's not going to make that much of a difference.

    And the orcs got lucky that the human kingdoms had drawn down their militaries after the Second War. They never faced an actual army before they ran away across the sea.
    We are talking about a medieval setting, were farmers with pitchforks are still a threat and the Alliance is already so spread thin that they have quite a few problems at home, in order to subdue the horde races they will need far more than just a few castles, with a handful of soldiers.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    We are talking about a medieval setting,
    So was he.

  5. #305
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynneiah View Post
    So was he.
    Where a castle hardly offers the same protection, since a shaman can easily tear down the wall for example. It wouldn't be that easy to subdue them, as people make it out to be.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    We are talking about a medieval setting, were farmers with pitchforks are still a threat and the Alliance is already so spread thin that they have quite a few problems at home, in order to subdue the horde races they will need far more than just a few castles, with a handful of soldiers.
    The Alliance is spread thin because of Horde invasions all over the place. When they're ejected from places like Ashenvale, The Swamp of Sorrows and of course Pandaria and confined to their own lands, it will free up a lot of troops.

    And guerrilla-style tactics are far less effective in a medieval setting. The more primitive and far less destructive weaponry means that hit-and-run attacks by small groups of people simply don't inflict much damage. Magic can compensate to a degree, but there simply aren't that many mages.

    There have been hundreds, if not thousands of uprisings like you describe throughout history. The vast majority ended badly, eventually crushed by troops with superior weapons and cohesion. History shows quite clearly that yes, a relatively small occupying force can maintain control over an entire country. It's the cases where the occupied countries manage to throw them that are the exception.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Where a castle hardly offers the same protection, since a shaman can easily tear down the wall for example. It wouldn't be that easy to subdue them, as people make it out to be.
    Hardly. There's only a handful of shamans who are that powerful. Same goes for other magic-users. They have to be, or there would be no point even building the things in the first place. Obviously everybody and their mother goes to the considerable trouble of building fortifications, so they must be worth the expense. They wouldn't be if the first shaman that comes along could tear it down. And most of those that can, would be in the armies that would have been subdued before the occupation even began.
    Last edited by Deamon002; 2013-09-13 at 12:36 PM.

  7. #307
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deamon002 View Post
    The Alliance is spread thin because of Horde invasions all over the place. When they're ejected from places like Ashenvale, The Swamp of Sorrows and of course Pandaria and confined to their own lands, it will free up a lot of troops.

    And guerrilla-style tactics are far less effective in a medieval setting. The more primitive and far less destructive weaponry means that hit-and-run attacks by small groups of people simply don't inflict much damage. Magic can compensate to a degree, but there simply aren't that many mages.

    There have been hundreds, if not thousands of uprisings like you describe throughout history. The vast majority ended badly, eventually crushed by troops with superior weapons and cohesion. History shows quite clearly that yes, a relatively small occupying force can maintain control over an entire country. It's the cases where the occupied countries manage to throw them that are the exception.
    If Azeroth medieval world would be like our I might agree, but there are fundamental differences, which make these points kinda naught, raiding the supply lines for these outposts for example could seriously cripple their capabillities, walls in the wow universe hardly offer the same protection, unless you spend a massive amount of resources on them, not to mention they need to be build, their food could easily be poisoned etc. there are so many factors that play into all this. A few powerful individuals born into the oppressed people could change everything.

    The horde is not the only problem the Alliance has, they will have to focus on subduing the horde and taking care of their own problems and those of the former horde like harpies ,quilboar, trolls, naga attacks etc on top.

    It just isn't that simple, neither side will be able to take over the other in the near future.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  8. #308
    Well, in medieval times the regular people seldom held any thoughts of freedom from the masters, whether new or old. They generally got along with their lives, who ruled the local castle mattered less than the amount of taxes he was imposing. The mentality would be rather different in Kalimdor I'd imagine.

    Any domination would have to be done by means of instilling fear in the populace and exert retributions on the locals for attacks on the forces, since I don't think that "winning the locals confidence" would be an option. Would be an interesting turn in the good/bad arc.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperspeed View Post
    She is definitely heading down a dark path, I don't know why it's so difficult to grasp the concept that great loss and tragedy can lead even the best of us to darkness.

    Yes it is entirely unreasonable to blame members of a Horde Rebellion for Garrosh's crimes, but she is not thinking rationally one bit and imo that is the point. It all makes sense given her role in this expansion, I don't think Blizzard is bringing this out of left field at all. Let's not forget that Garrosh even kept children of Theramore prisoner in Orgrimmar, this is not something anyone would get over quickly.

    She can still come back from this and perhaps Varian's actions in the cinematic would help her see the light, but if they do push her deeper into darkness it has the potential to be an excellent parallel with her lost lover Arthas.

    If you ask me, Blizzard has given the Alliance it's version of Sylvanas, a rogue element with darker intentions brought by great personal tragedy.

    Just my two cents.
    Quite right. A tragedy like Theramore can break a person. Let's remember that Jaina lost an apprentice she had become attached to, all her familiar friends and citizens of Theramore, her *place* in the world, and Rhonin.

    Yes, Garrosh may have been toppled, but Jaina recognizes that the Horde has the potential to do evil. Garrosh likely has proponents remaining within the Horde, now existing in secret. Plus, there's the simple fact that it is still "us" versus "them" and the Alliance will never know what the Horde is planning -- Sylvanas, for one, is almost as unhinged as Garrosh, and she could easily create Theramore 2 with a plague in the Eastern Kingdoms.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    If Azeroth medieval world would be like our I might agree, but there are fundamental differences, which make these points kinda naught, raiding the supply lines for these outposts for example could seriously cripple their capabillities, walls in the wow universe hardly offer the same protection, unless you spend a massive amount of resources on them, not to mention they need to be build, their food could easily be poisoned etc. there are so many factors that play into all this. A few powerful individuals born into the oppressed people could change everything.

    The horde is not the only problem the Alliance has, they will have to focus on subduing the horde and taking care of their own problems and those of the former horde like harpies ,quilboar, trolls, naga attacks etc on top.

    It just isn't that simple, neither side will be able to take over the other in the near future.
    All of those things either are also true in the real world history, or can be made to work in the Alliance's favor just as easily as against them. Supply lines for example: the Allies have Dalaran on their side, set up a system of supply via portals.

    And who said anything about oppressing the races of the former Horde? You just assume that every one of them is going to be unfailingly hostile to the Alliance, but half of them were only in it for their own gain to begin with, and all except the orcs were treated like crap, used as cannon fodder etc for the last few years. You really think now that Garrosh is dead, they'll just go "the asshole's gone, all water under the bridge"? They may not like the Alliance much, but I don't think they're all that fond of the Horde either at the moment.

    A post-WWII style occupation, where you help your former enemies get back on their feet, then pull out once they can handle themselves and are to busy making something of their lives to go fuck with others, could work
    Last edited by Deamon002; 2013-09-13 at 01:31 PM.

  11. #311
    Jaina died somewhere in 5.3 and now is Mal'ganis.

    I mean he used human leaders once, allready and is still out on revenge.

  12. #312
    The Patient sourmonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monteverdi View Post
    It's either solid character development, or they broke her. It's easy to break a character - put them through so much that there's now ay back. Maybe, just maybe, Jaina has a way back - and if she does it'll be one hell of a story, and I'll be proud of Blizz. But she's reaching a terminal point - they need to start pulling her back or risk her broken for good.
    Setting her up to be the next bad guy When she sides with the naga to take on both horde and alliance thus being the darkness below cause she feels betrayed by the alliance for not attacking after hellscream and she hates the horde with a passion .

    Remember the evil model of her they data mines leads me to believe this theory .
    Last edited by sourmonkey; 2013-09-13 at 02:21 PM.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by sourmonkey View Post
    Setting her up to be the next bad guy When she sides with the naga to take on both horde and alliance thus being the dark ess below cause she feels betrayed by the alliance for not attacking after hellscream and she hates the horde with a passion .

    Remember the evil model of her they data mines leads me to believe this theory .
    Evil model? I must have missed that, could you point me towards it? It seems a bit odd they'd put something like that in the data files already, they know perfectly well anything in there is known to the community at large in a matter of minutes.

  14. #314
    ITT: World of Warcraft's female character gains a boost in personality and becomes less of a soulless husk of a soccer mom?



    INTO THE TRASH IT GOES! ! !

  15. #315
    The Patient sourmonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deamon002 View Post
    Evil model? I must have missed that, could you point me towards it? It seems a bit odd they'd put something like that in the data files already, they know perfectly well anything in there is known to the community at large in a matter of minutes.
    The evil model was the one last Introduced , with the gold streak giving her a more sinister look what I call aka evil
    Her reaction during the alliance cut scene shows she wants blood and the king allows a peace treaty . S
    You know she's fuming , who else can she turn to but the naga that's the only plane really Warcraft had yet to touch .
    Will jaina turn her back on Dalaran and reach the depths of darkness to fulfill her blood lust ?

    That's the direction I believe it's heading and in the near future (pre exp content leading into exp ) she will slowly go mad
    This will be unveiled as you do the keepers of time weekly and it reaches full power you rfind she's the traitor .

  16. #316
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deamon002 View Post
    All of those things either are also true in the real world history, or can be made to work in the Alliance's favor just as easily as against them. Supply lines for example: the Allies have Dalaran on their side, set up a system of supply via portals.
    Which can easily be hijacked by someone skilled enough.

    And who said anything about oppressing the races of the former Horde? You just assume that every one of them is going to be unfailingly hostile to the Alliance, but half of them were only in it for their own gain to begin with, and all except the orcs were treated like crap, used as cannon fodder etc for the last few years. You really think now that Garrosh is dead, they'll just go "the asshole's gone, all water under the bridge"? They may not like the Alliance much, but I don't think they're all that fond of the Horde either at the moment.

    A post-WWII style occupation, where you help your former enemies get back on their feet, then pull out once they can handle themselves and are to busy making something of their lives to go fuck with others, could work
    It might work, but the chances are very slim.

    There is no love between the common people of both factions , tauren are generally seen as beasts, blood elves as traitors, goblins are untrustworthy in general, the forsaken would most likely be purged, orcs would hate the situation no matter the outcome. For them it would be changing one overlord, who restricted them to the next, albeit not as bad but definitely not loved either, not to mention should their leaders face trials for their "crimes" and being imprisoned or executed the general population might not like that one bit, especially the darkspear and tauren.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Which can easily be hijacked by someone skilled enough.
    When did that happen, exactly? Or did you just make that up? I can't recall any case where portals were actually redirected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It might work, but the chances are very slim.

    There is no love between the common people of both factions , tauren are generally seen as beasts, blood elves as traitors, goblins are untrustworthy in general, the forsaken would most likely be purged, orcs would hate the situation no matter the outcome. For them it would be changing one overlord, who restricted them to the next, albeit not as bad but definitely not loved either, not to mention should their leaders face trials for their "crimes" and being imprisoned or executed the general population might not like that one bit, especially the darkspear and tauren.
    Still better odds than letting Garrosh 2.0 rebuild the Horde military and come back for Round God-knows-how-many-chances-now.

  18. #318
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deamon002 View Post
    When did that happen, exactly? Or did you just make that up? I can't recall any case where portals were actually redirected.
    Not redirected, hijacked.

    http://wowpedia.org/Quest:Commando_Drop

    Very powerful people can redirect such things if they catch on, like Jaina did in Darnassus for example, before the blood elves bypassed her.

    Still better odds than letting Garrosh 2.0 rebuild the Horde military and come back for Round God-knows-how-many-chances-now.
    Arguably, the orcs are contained and a non orc leads the horde, it is a risk true, but it will cost less alliance lives in the immediate future and might work out in the long turn, both sides have merit, though occupation is less favorable for lasting peace.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  19. #319
    she will get the varian treatment. just watch. i HIGHLY doubt they went through all the trouble of building her up just to be another raid boss. they wouldnt make her leader of the kirin tor and just kill her off.

    i dont know how but i really feel like they are going to have varian play voice of reason how she was to him through all of wrath and have it culminate in her not going back to her old passive self but a more rounded, non vengeful version.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Not redirected, hijacked.

    http://wowpedia.org/Quest:Commando_Drop

    Very powerful people can redirect such things if they catch on, like Jaina did in Darnassus for example, before the blood elves bypassed her.
    And how many of such very powerful people would there be after a war to the finish? Can't be many.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Arguably, the orcs are contained and a non orc leads the horde, it is a risk true, but it will cost less alliance lives in the immediate future and might work out in the long turn, both sides have merit, though occupation is less favorable for lasting peace.
    Depends on how trustworthy you consider the current leaders and the population. Jaina has no trust in them at all anymore, and I don't blame her. She could be wrong, but one thing she isn't is crazy or irrational. And of course, if it doesn't work out in the long run, many more Alliance lives will be lost than if you finish them off now.

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