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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    Sigh. Yeah I did not do all the math or sim the damage or look at how defensive and offensive cooldowns are affected by the increased stats. You got me, I did napkin math to see if it was close and it was! Go nitpick elsewhere, the general idea is sound.

    Oh, and the general idea is that PvP gear is still the best for instanced PvP and out in the world the sky is not falling like everyone suggests.
    why even try and make a point if you exclude so much shit that invalidates your point?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Coraulten View Post
    I think you are missing the fact that world pvp is not supposed to be balanced. Nor does blizzard even care to balance it as they have stated.
    If this was the case, then why did they even put resilience baseline on every player. PVErs where whining about being ganked/griefed, so they gave them resilience, that combined with no battle fatigue, PVErs now can live long enough to run into their instance before we gank them. We still commonly 1v3 players with 50-100k more health than us. It was fun back in the day (Vanilla) having our PvP guild camp Blackrock Mountain, we kept the alliance from that Raid Content during normal hours for 2-3 months. Those were the days.. And for the PVErs that are about to whine, WHY DID YOU ROLE ON A PvP SERVER, GO ROLE ON A CAREBEAR SERVER!

  3. #43
    So PvP power is actually a worthless stat compared to agi, str and so on?

  4. #44
    I find what Blizzard did with PvP gear this whole expansion essentially a good thing, and it is also the logical consequence of past mistakes. The emphasis is now on distinction between the two aspects of the game, with PvE gear clearly being worthless in PvP and PvP gear clearly being worthless in PvE. Generally it wouldn't really have to be this way, but as the past expansions have shown, players are more than eager to ignore borders that are not clearly drawn. So yes, part of this is necessary today because we misused designated gear in the past. On the other hand, PvP is so much more fun without ridiculous gear gaps like those in PvE, and PvE gear can be much more diverse since it doesn't have to suffer item level restrictions because of PvP.

    These two playstyles are essentially not compatible and need to be handled separately. All in all, considering this issue I don't really find anything to complain about that wasn't worse in past expansions. It's time now for the players to let go of the believe that item levels have to be close or the same for PvP and PvE. It's a relic of the past that has been revised in a good way with this expansion.
    There are too many design flaws in your game. As a result, your customers' game experience may be degraded. Fire or replace the failing developers if you don't want to see this message again.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Morrissey View Post
    why even try and make a point if you exclude so much shit that invalidates your point?
    Because the only thing I excluded was crit, haste and weapon damage. Crit is about the same, haste only gives resources to melee which is not actually very useful and weapon damage is a big factor, but guess what... it was about 40% more. The point was that the PvE gear was about 40% more effective than the PvP gear and that PvP power is about a 40% increase in damage. They are roughly equal. PvE players have an advantage, yes but it is not vastly superior to allow someone with no pvp experience the ability to overcome a pvp player simply because they out gear you.

    I would wager that the amount of players that are both heroic geared PvE heroes AND good at PvP are very few as to be non-existant. The logical conclusion to that assumption is that if you are losing BADLY in world pvp and it is not because of class imbalance (of which there is a lot) then you are simply not as good at PvP as you would like to believe.

    In my DK example, if I met that PvE heroic Thunderforged with Legendary guy and we both had all our CDs up. I would win. I know I would. I would not panic at his health pool, I would know how to handle him and his defensive boost and slight offensive boost in comparison to myself would not make up for the PvP experience I have that I know he does not.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Morrissey View Post
    You didn't factor in things like crit, and haste? which pve players will have a lot more of too given pvp gear has less secondaries (weapon + ilevel) and he might have reforged fully to crit, why not include all secondaries?

    Also pvp gear will get 20 item levels higher by the end of expansion and take ages to farm, the weapon especially. (Does it still require 8000 conquest gained or w/e?) whilst pve gear will be 35~ item levels higher, being upgradable and just higher including heroic gear, AND you didn't factor in weapon damage which is huge for melee classes.
    Pvp gear get ages to get ? If you are skilled enough your weekly cap rise. And give some numbers then . You dont have any clue what is difference pvp gear and pve gear and how pvp power work. Someone just testet that he do same damage in pvp than his heroic pve geared friend and you start argue whit secondary stats. So you think that huge difference in dps come from gemming and reforgin secondary stats ?

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    Because the only thing I excluded was crit, haste and weapon damage. Crit is about the same, haste only gives resources to melee which is not actually very useful and weapon damage is a big factor, but guess what... it was about 40% more. The point was that the PvE gear was about 40% more effective than the PvP gear and that PvP power is about a 40% increase in damage. They are roughly equal. PvE players have an advantage, yes but it is not vastly superior to allow someone with no pvp experience the ability to overcome a pvp player simply because they out gear you.

    I would wager that the amount of players that are both heroic geared PvE heroes AND good at PvP are very few as to be non-existant. The logical conclusion to that assumption is that if you are losing BADLY in world pvp and it is not because of class imbalance (of which there is a lot) then you are simply not as good at PvP as you would like to believe.

    In my DK example, if I met that PvE heroic Thunderforged with Legendary guy and we both had all our CDs up. I would win. I know I would. I would not panic at his health pool, I would know how to handle him and his defensive boost and slight offensive boost in comparison to myself would not make up for the PvP experience I have that I know he does not.
    When 3 warlock dots can take my hunter from full to nothing mounted, 'pvp skill' is not really important. Any player in a top pve guild (heroic cleared last patch, top 500), will have enough game understanding to do world pve, press their cds and press their nukes. No amount of pvp skill will circumvent his weapon damage being double yours. Most pvers that are capable of top level raiding are easily capable of getting 2k rating, pvp is not hard. World pvp and pvp in pve environmetns even less so.

    Given your lack of understanding of the importance and scaling of said weapon damage, crit & haste .

    PVE gear has 100% + more stats , and weapon damage etc, the exponential scaling is ridiculous.

    And my point is not only for wpvp, but for questing, killing rares, soloing stuff, general alround gameplay, pve gear is far superior to pvp gear, being curently 561 and pvp gear being 498, AND pvp gear will take one week minimum per piece to farm.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by t3180 View Post
    Pvp gear get ages to get ? If you are skilled enough your weekly cap rise. And give some numbers then . You dont have any clue what is difference pvp gear and pve gear and how pvp power work. Someone just testet that he do same damage in pvp than his heroic pve geared friend and you start argue whit secondary stats. So you think that huge difference in dps come from gemming and reforgin secondary stats ?
    The guy provided no evidence at all, just anecdotes.

    In my full pvp gear with gems I have around 33% (?) pvp power, I'd need to log to check it.

    http://www.wowhead.com/items=2.8

    Weapon dps on the highest possible pve weapon (2x upgraded ilevel 580), would be around 9500. Weapon dps on the pvp weapon is 5693.

    Consider that a lot of abilities scale hugely significantly off of weapon damage, how is that fair? That is nearly 100% more weapon damage.

    100%, that is like the difference between blue gear from mop compared to 85 gear from end game raiding in cata.

  8. #48
    I am not sure you know how percentages work. The difference between 9500 and 5693 is 66%. The increase is 3807, which is 66% of 5693 which is the amount you are interested in. Also, it has been stated before that if you are fully power gemmed it is actually 40%, I am not power gemmed and I sit at 37%. Yes, weapon damage matters as well as crit and haste, but I think you overestimate the crit and haste. crit between pve and pvp players is roughly equal because of the abundance of crit on pvp pieces as opposed to pve. Haste is good mostly for regen mechanics in pvp which means sustained damage which is not what matters in pvp. PvE haste is a good stat, mostly in pvp it is not. (some hard casting casters exceptions).

    I will napkin math an obliterate hit for you and our two DK examples.

    PvE hero weapon is 543 double upgraded heroic. 24924 average.
    PvP hero weapon is 498. 16388 average.

    Obliterate deals 350% weapon damage plus 25% from diseases. It is affected by brittle bones so an additional 4%. It is normalized to 3.3 weapon speed for attack power. It is affected by armor. Let's assume a crit, with 3% crit meta. Let's ignore buffs and procs since the base should be the same for both. (procs/buffs will amplify pve more, but I am curious to the difference in base right now)

    PvE Hero
    (45054AP/14) * 3.3 + 24924WepDmg * 350% * 4% * 25% * 58.47%Armor Reduction * 203%crit modifier * 27.63% res reduction = 47810 Damage against me. Obviously this goes up with buffs, but this the base crit.

    PvP Hero
    (31060AP/14) * 3.3 + 16388WepDmg * 350% * 4% * 25% * 54.87%Armor Reduction * 203% crit modifier * 28% res reduction * 37.18% power increase = 39222 damage against him.

    So I do 20% less damage than him and he has roughly 40% more health than me. Now if he is a pve hero and he does as you say and runs in frost presence (since that is what pve heroes do) comes at me and blows all his CDs to try to kill me, how do you think he will handle me kiting him in blood presence until his CDs are up? You would be surprised how many pve heroes don't understand that yes doing less damage but also taking less damage is important. I have run against so many DKs not in blood presence trying so hard to just blow me up and they end up sitting in a stun or a root for the duration of their CDs only to then hit like a wet noodle while I train into them taking 10% less damage and with 25% more health and 55% more armor.

    Again, the point is that if you meet someone in the world chances are they are closer to 520 ilvl right now which is not that much difference to make up for your pvp power and experience. If you do run into the PvE hero rocking full heroic gear then yeah, he will do more damage than you and have more health than you but you should be able to handle hm because you should understand how to play defensively, when to CC, when to kite, how to use terrain and all he may know is run in and pop your macro and win.

  9. #49
    ' If you do run into the PvE hero rocking full heroic gear then yeah, he will do more damage than you and have more health than you but you should be able to handle hm because you should understand how to play defensively, when to CC, when to kite, how to use terrain and all he may know is run in and pop your macro and win.'

    This is such an incredible misnomers its unbelievable. So pvers who clear heroic raids with ease and probably pvp casually can't kite? Give me a break. Anybody that is capable of playing high level pve is capable of getting high rating in arena, the only difficulties come in positioning, coordination and comp, most of which aren't problems in wpvp at all.

    Your calculations ignore the legendary cape, the fact he will have way more secondaries (haste crit) , his procs will be way better especially as you are using double pvp trinket for the pvp power, ignore the scaling from kings and the 5% buffs all over the island (which suit the pver more), amongst other things.

    Also with the required farming for the new weapon, it can take up to 3 + weeks, to get a 522 weapon. Meanwhile a lot of the better guilds will be in heroic next week, with a chance of a 580~ (maximum) weapon. 498 vs 580 weapon, you don't see a problem? Fair enough if the 498 was going to be updated to a weapon at a close ilevel but 522 is still a huge huge gulf, for x weeks farming and arena wins.

    'I am not sure you know how percentages work. The difference between 9500 and 5693 is 66%. The increase is 3807, which is 66% of 5693 which is the amount you are interested in.

    Also, it has been stated before that if you are fully power gemmed it is actually 40%, I am not power gemmed and I sit at 37%. Yes, weapon damage matters as well as crit and haste, but I think you overestimate the crit and haste. crit between pve and pvp players is roughly equal because of the abundance of crit on pvp pieces as opposed to pve. Haste is good mostly for regen mechanics in pvp which means sustained damage which is not what matters in pvp. PvE haste is a good stat, mostly in pvp it is not. (some hard casting casters exceptions).'

    I
    t appear I underestimated and the bis 2h sword actually has 9773.2 weapon damage, so closer to 70%+ better weapon damage.

    I'm not sure that you don't have a problem with being passive aggressive. I understand percentages, I simply exagerated, but that 66% difference is huge.

    ' Haste is good mostly for regen mechanics in pvp which means sustained damage which is not what matters in pvp. PvE haste is a good stat, mostly in pvp it is not. (some hard casting casters exceptions).'

    Really? How do dots work, how do resource starved classes work? Some BM Hunters in arena even tried stacking haste, it is incredibly valuable. Crit even more so. I don't know why you think secondaries are irrelevant.

    The BIS sword has a socket, aswell as 1000, yes 1000 more strength. If you are gemming pvppower, the pver with more sockets, way more strength on gear, and more secondaries + way better trinket procs, will simply have far and away more stats, and way more hp. Oh and the cloak with 2 sockets a proc and 3 stats.
    Last edited by Morrissey; 2013-09-13 at 04:17 PM.

  10. #50
    Dreadlord Leitka's Avatar
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    If you truly believe PvE vs PvP gear makes such little difference, Tyrean, add me to battletag. Leitka#1592
    I'm in fairly low level PvE gear now (533ish) due to having not raided since early summer. The difference is still astronomical, and I'll happily demonstrate that for you. Your 'napkin math' leaves out quite a number of factors.

  11. #51
    The Patient sourmonkey's Avatar
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    I may be wrong but pvp gears Main stat is pvp power which does nothing outside of pvp.
    See using pvp gear for PVE your having to reforge viable stats to hit/exp
    And thus losing dps needed or hps .

    PVE gear has more hit / exp on it allowing you to reforge a stat to a more viable stat ie haste to crit rather than having to use it for hit .

    To allow pvp gear to be as efficient as PVE they would have to remove exp and hit as a stackable stat and do like resil.
    And give players exp + hit based on level then I would say either is as good .
    Last edited by sourmonkey; 2013-09-13 at 06:00 PM. Reason: Spell check

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Leitka View Post
    If you truly believe PvE vs PvP gear makes such little difference, Tyrean, add me to battletag. Leitka#1592
    I'm in fairly low level PvE gear now (533ish) due to having not raided since early summer. The difference is still astronomical, and I'll happily demonstrate that for you. Your 'napkin math' leaves out quite a number of factors.
    And prove what? That pvp players who have a gear advantage in world pvp will win? Not even considering that as a WW you will have an easy time against a DK? Come on, that is fluff and you know it. The point is that everyone is crying because they are butt hurt that people who never pvp are going to stomp them in world pvp because they have a gear advantage. Key components being the never pvp part and the world pvp part. No one engages in world pvp unless the odds are so far in their favor (PvE geared WW vs PvP geared DK for example) that they get easy wins. It is world pvp.

    Instead of crying about how it is not fair and blizzard doesn't care about pvp, I would much rather you all just spend your time bitching in raid finder about how easy it is to get pve gear.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Morrissey View Post
    Some stuff
    You are missing the point. Yes, pve geared players have more stats. Yes I did not do a thorough simulation. It was to get a general idea, I don't need to know that when the pve guy's stuff procs that he will do more damage. Duh! The point is that the difference between the two is not insurmountable. You guys whine and cry and make it sound like the pve heroes are walking around with the old wintergrasp buff and one shotting hordes of pvpers while they try in futility to dent their health.

    Give me a break. The sky is not falling. World pvp is unfair. Welcome to 2004.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by the kao View Post
    i find what blizzard did with pvp gear this whole expansion essentially a good thing, and it is also the logical consequence of past mistakes. The emphasis is now on distinction between the two aspects of the game, with pve gear clearly being worthless in pvp and pvp gear clearly being worthless in pve. Generally it wouldn't really have to be this way, but as the past expansions have shown, players are more than eager to ignore borders that are not clearly drawn. So yes, part of this is necessary today because we misused designated gear in the past. On the other hand, pvp is so much more fun without ridiculous gear gaps like those in pve, and pve gear can be much more diverse since it doesn't have to suffer item level restrictions because of pvp.

    These two playstyles are essentially not compatible and need to be handled separately. All in all, considering this issue i don't really find anything to complain about that wasn't worse in past expansions. It's time now for the players to let go of the believe that item levels have to be close or the same for pvp and pve. It's a relic of the past that has been revised in a good way with this expansion.

    Simple fix , put the same ilevel caps/restrictions on the wow world as there are in arena's and rbg"s, the carebears can have their 600 ilevel gear, but only in pve instances. Think they would whine
    Put battle fatigue in the world as well.
    Last edited by Vecna72; 2013-09-13 at 06:44 PM.

  14. #54
    Yes, PVE gear is superior to PVP gear in WPVP.
    This makes it more fun for PVE people and less fun for PVP people.
    There are more PVE people so this will never change.
    Luckily I managed to pry myself away from this game, and this is the #1 reason for it as I refuse to set foot in a raid for BIS WPVP gear, and it doesn't look like it will ever change.

    So, like Blizzard has said before... shut up PVP guy.
    Last edited by EDGrenade; 2013-09-13 at 06:46 PM.

  15. #55
    Dreadlord Leitka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    And prove what? That pvp players who have a gear advantage in world pvp will win? Not even considering that as a WW you will have an easy time against a DK? Come on, that is fluff and you know it. The point is that everyone is crying because they are butt hurt that people who never pvp are going to stomp them in world pvp because they have a gear advantage. Key components being the never pvp part and the world pvp part. No one engages in world pvp unless the odds are so far in their favor (PvE geared WW vs PvP geared DK for example) that they get easy wins. It is world pvp.

    Instead of crying about how it is not fair and blizzard doesn't care about pvp, I would much rather you all just spend your time bitching in raid finder about how easy it is to get pve gear.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You are missing the point. Yes, pve geared players have more stats. Yes I did not do a thorough simulation. It was to get a general idea, I don't need to know that when the pve guy's stuff procs that he will do more damage. Duh! The point is that the difference between the two is not insurmountable. You guys whine and cry and make it sound like the pve heroes are walking around with the old wintergrasp buff and one shotting hordes of pvpers while they try in futility to dent their health.

    Give me a break. The sky is not falling. World pvp is unfair. Welcome to 2004.
    I was going to demonstrate, specifically, how massive the burst increase between my pve and pvp gear is, when the item-level gulf is actually much less than it would be for any person still raiding. The difference is, in fact, insurmountable in many cases and your (admitted) desire here is mostly to speak from ignorance. That's why you'd rather do napkin math, sans important variables, rather than see it demonstrated in real time. Your desire is contrarian first, accuracy second.

    DKs are one of the melee classes that have the best chance against a WW, by the way. The fact that you don't know that only furthers my point, despite it being completely beside the point in terms of what I intended to demonstrate.

    Also, you make some pretty baseless assumptions with that whole "no one engages in world pvp unless they will win."

    You can leave aside your strawman about gearing ease. No one is talking about that. No one has an issue with PvE gear existing. The issue is barely even with world pvp in general; the issue is with world pvp in a specific place (Timeless Isle) wherein world pvp *is* incentivized. The base argument against balancing world pvp in general, which I tend to agree with, is an argument regarding the lack of incentivization given towards the playstyle. That argument is not relevant on Timeless Isle, as incentive *does* exist.

    I'm not 'crying' for the record, either. I'm making a great pace towards 500 bloody coins, and don't really expect a change. But that doesn't mean I can't recognize and point out a glaring imbalance towards this particular piece of content. My aim is objectivity, and objectively...the item level gulf is an issue.
    Last edited by Leitka; 2013-09-13 at 06:53 PM.

  16. #56
    Hopefully they work this ilvl gap out next expansion. Nobody had a problem with using x gladiator pieces to get started in raids in BC. Not sure why it's an issue now.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Morrissey View Post
    Balanced? No , but competitive ? Why not?

    Even for questing and general function, exploring, dueling etc, pvp gear is extremely sub-par.
    522 isn't subpar for any of those things.

  18. #58
    Dreadlord Leitka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    522 isn't subpar for any of those things.
    522 pvp gear isn't available yet unless you've gotten lucky on the Celestials. Season starts this coming Tuesday. No one will be in full 522 PvP gear for several weeks yet.

    The desire of the ignorant to speak as if they're anything but is astounding.

  19. #59
    no reason to not have pvp gear match high end raid gear in ilevel like it always did, and t2 should have +20 vs t1 pvp gear, it all gets downgraded in arena anyways.
    Maybe let us use honor/cp's to upgrade it 0/3 - 3/3 , it wouldnt affect arena/bg/rbgs, but would give us something to play/spend cp/honor for after week 10-12.

    As it is now, there no reason to even buy t2, used my last 30-40k conquest points and 50-60k honor do buy bracers and capes just to DE them to crystals for gold.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Leitka View Post
    The desire of the ignorant to speak as if they're anything but is astounding.
    Oh the irony.

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