5.4 outcome, my thoughts (obvious spoilers)

[Trassk]

Garrosh surviving = best possible outcome

vol'jin being warcheif = worst possible outcome


So I'm kinda in the middle. :P

yeah and you decided to send me a private message trying to gloat about something.

Funny thing, I almost don't care that garrosh survived, he's just be put in a box and be used for a later villain. The vol'jin thing, thats disappointing.

[Deleted]

I refused to follow Garrosh because he was an idiot.

I will refuse to follow Vol'jin because he is not worthy.

Seems my Orc Shaman will remain a rogue Horde (if i continue playing at all).

Vol'jin is not worthy of the mantle, he has done NOTHING to deserve it.

You should have been prepared. I told you ages ago he was going to be the new warchief.

I always liked the old horde under the real Thrall ( not the green jesus mary sue he is now of course ) , and I am sure Vol"jin will be able to bring horde to its glory without needing to steal stuff from Alliance or murder innocent alliance.

Can't wait to see what happens .

[Deleted]

yeah and you decided to send me a private message trying to gloat about something.

Funny thing, I almost don't care that garrosh survived, he's just be put in a box and be used for a later villain. The vol'jin thing, thats disappointing.

May I just ask if there's actually any reason you dislike Vol'jin as Warchief other than the fact he's not an orc? You say you like Vol'jin in general, so why is he so unsuited to being Warchief?

[Veilsyde]

yeah right. eveything in the last few patches, including this ending, outright stripped the orcs of any worth they had to the story.

Kinda like how Arthas stripped the humans of all their worth. If anything i feel bad for the alliance Players their leaders are somewhere on vacation with the exception of Varian. I cant even remeber the last time i heard about the Dreani.

Does anyone get the feeling it's more like Trolls= African Americans Orcs = White people Vol'jin= martin Luther king

[Trassk]

You should have been prepared. I told you ages ago he was going to be the new warchief.

I always liked the old horde under the real Thrall ( not the green jesus mary sue he is now of course ) , and I am sure Vol"jin will be able to bring horde to its glory without needing to steal stuff from Alliance or murder innocent alliance.

Can't wait to see what happens .

The ironic thing about this is... Thrall, as you saw him in this trailer, really does feel like Thrall as he was before Cata, the orc who was prepared to step up and do what needs to be done. There would have been no better time for him to retake his mantle, but he decided against it, and had someone else take it.
Blizzard, trying to be ironic.

- - - Updated - - -

May I just ask if there's actually any reason you dislike Vol'jin as Warchief other than the fact he's not an orc? You say you like Vol'jin in general, so why is he so unsuited to being Warchief?

Because he's not done anything worthy of the title. Even in the last few patches, we don't see him do anything making him worthy of it.
He got stabbed and then had a novel written about him, well his people are threatened by the kor'kohn. Thrall comes in and saves them. Vol'jin returns and starts the rebellion, but he doesn't even fight against the kor'kohn at sen'jin, Thrall and Chen do.. CHEN, a neutral character does more fighting them he does.
And lets not forget how he didn't do jack to save echo isles for years, leaving his people as mind slaves, also how he sat outside undercity well Thrall and Sylvanas battled varimathras.

Vol'jin might have good intentions, but he's done nothing making him worthy of this title.

[Deleted]

I welcome this change, I don't really mind a troll warchief. WoW stopped being just about Humans Vs. Orcs a long time ago.

As for the orcish tribe, being a fan myself - I believe that they are going to give us something to be proud of again, I am optimistic. No basis for my optimism, but hey.. got to hang onto something as stupid as hope.

[Frozenbeef]

yeah and you decided to send me a private message trying to gloat about something.

Funny thing, I almost don't care that garrosh survived, he's just be put in a box and be used for a later villain. The vol'jin thing, thats disappointing.

Because for the past 5months whenever someone mentioned garrosh even possibly surviving you had a mental breakdown saying things such as nope, blizz said he would die ,nope garrosh is pure evil, no chance of good or redemption

[Veilsyde]

Thralls Fetus child should have been warchief from the womb

[Deleted]

Because for the past 5months whenever someone mentioned garrosh even possibly surviving you had a mental breakdown saying things such as nope, blizz said he would die ,nope garrosh is pure evil, no chance of good or redemption

Not to forget : no its orcs vs humans not taurens vs humans ... or trolls vs humans ... or undeads vs humans .. or bes vs humans ..... its ORC vs humans .. ORCS ORCS ORCS ORCS ... so only ORC can be a warchief.... repeat x100000.

IT : I cant understand the hate with Vol'jin, he is a cool and deadly char.. and I am sure he will have his chances to show it.

[Deleted]

Thrall:
Probably the only good thing I got from this cinematic, was seeing how Thrall was prepared to kill Garrosh with the doomhammer. Before people complain this was out of character from Thrall, that just highlights how little to know of his character.
shows how Thrall has matured

We get it, you love thrall and he has no character flaws whatsoever and he's the best thing that's happened since sliced bread. when he does something out of character, it's because we don't know him. When others such as Jaina does something out of character, it's because "bad writing" or some other bull reason. Please, how can you not see your own bias?

The orcs:
This is the biggest problem now I see in the story. As I say, orcs have been the main demographic of the orcs storyline since the beginning, just as humans have been the main demographic in the alliance (which is even shown now with Varian, Jaina and Anduin). This sudden change of role, with vol'jin being in power, doesn't give me any hope for the orcs, at odds, despite them being the face of the horde for so long, they will be bumped down, and that just makes the horde into something else.

Basicly, what i get from this is that Horde = Orcs, screw the rest. I'd love to have more diversity shown in Alliance leaders and main characters.
Tbh, you sound like Garrosh.

Vol'jin:
this sudden taking the torch is.. just such a removal from the hordes storyline. Well he's shown to be a good commander, and will he is a far better option then Garrosh, having him as warchief just leaves the story making no sense. Imagine your an orc player the first time, you read stories about how orcs formed the horde, how it began on draenor with the orcs, how they were enslaved by the legion, then by the humans, rescued by Thrall, doomhammer sacrificing his life for them, moving to a new land, building there homes there, calling there land durotar, and there city orgrimmar. So a new orc player finds himself in durotar, he goes to orgrimmar, he goes to Grommash hold, everything so far is about orcs and orgrimmar is the hordes capital.. just to find.. the troll leader as his defacto leader.
Tell me, how they begins to make sense in anyones mind. People will say 'change is good', but in this case, its not so good, its just dropping the pale.

It's not a removal from the hordes storyline whatsoever. He's proven himself over and over, always working for what's best for the horde, became the leader of the rebels that took part in defeating the tyrant and reclaim the horde. I'd say he has more than earned it. This is how it makes sense.

Jaina:
I can't begin to describe this, but best I can say is, the Jaina I use to know and like from WC3 and on, is now officially dead to me. This thing looking like Jaina isn't her anymore, they couldn't have butchered her character anymore if they tried. He's literally become the sylvanas of the alliance, cold, unfeeling, and overall unpleasent to think about. For a character who use to inspire great promise in peace, she's not that character anymore. I did write in a long review I did of tides of war, the Jaina I knew once died in that book, and none more is it apparent then here. She doesn't even regard Thrall as her friend anymore, despite Garrosh being defeated as she wanted. Honestly, Jaina doesn't exist anymore, she's just a clone of her father now.

See, this is what i meant in my first reply. How come Thrall can have a change of character and be written off as "we don't all about his character"
Jaina's and all of her citizens home were BLOWN TO PIECES, and you expect her to be all like "lol it's all good, it was garrosh fault". Garrosh was at the time responsible for the horde, and it was the horde that blasted her home to pieces. It was not an act of one single orc. Jaina deserves more than to just be pissed. I seriously don't get how people can say it's out of character, i think it's a pretty good reason to get downright evil.

The alliance:
I'm just gonna say this now, but can you alliance whiners, dear god, shut the hell up! You got your victory, you defeated Garrosh, your alliance is now stronger then ever, and you have nothing toi complain about, coming out on top of all this. If you can't even take that for what it is, your never going to, so if you still feel disappointed in this outcome, i have no sympathy for you. Enjoy your human only story.

You sound alot like them yourself. Just saying.



You have so many moot points and i find it quite incredible that you can't see you own bias towards the orcs and blindlessly defend them.
Intriguing and scary.

[Arrashi]

Thralls Fetus child should have been warchief from the womb

He is already out in 5.1
Also do you really want THIS to be your leader

[Faroth]

Thrall:
Probably the only good thing I got from this cinematic, was seeing how Thrall was prepared to kill Garrosh with the doomhammer. Before people complain this was out of character from Thrall, that just highlights how little to know of his character. In past warcraft stories, like the novel cycle of hatred, Thrall did indeed crush the skull of one of his own, who couldn't let go of his hate for humans, so when it comes down to it, we see here Thrall was prepared to kill Garrosh, and correct giving him power in the first place.
Thrall then givng his mantle, which was rightfully his, over to vol'jin, well in a way it shows how Thrall has matured to the point he doesn't wish for power over people, just to help them, it also means, as of this moment, because of Thralls decision, orcs have lost there mantle in the horde, despite the games story since the beginning being about orcs and humans, the game makers have shifted it into unfamiliar grounds, and tbh, it feels also unreal, like a parallel story arch from the comic book.
I'm happy Thralls alive, but whatever this means for the orcs..

I thought the start was fantastic. I loved how Thrall was prepared to end Garrosh right there and Varian, VARIAN OF ALL PEOPLE, stops him. Metzen said early on that Varian, and the Alliance, was not invading Orgrimmar for revenge, but for justice. Thrall's look when he said he would not let Varian take him made me grin. Thrall is still not as neutral or peaceable towards the Alliance as people want to claim. The Alliance has suffered longer than the Horde at Garrosh's hands, yet Thrall still refuses to let the Alliance take him for trial. The mutual agreement between Thrall and Varian at Taran Tzu's proposal was cool, though. And when Vol'jin says he speaks for the Horde, Varian looks to Thrall for confirmation on that. Thrall and Varian have attempted to meet twice for a peace summit and I felt like the video did a good job to show their respect for one another despite their differences.

The orcs:
This is the biggest problem now I see in the story. As I say, orcs have been the main demographic of the orcs storyline since the beginning, just as humans have been the main demographic in the alliance (which is even shown now with Varian, Jaina and Anduin). This sudden change of role, with vol'jin being in power, doesn't give me any hope for the orcs, at odds, despite them being the face of the horde for so long, they will be bumped down, and that just makes the horde into something else.

I think it's time for the Horde and Alliance to become more distributed. I know you love the orcs and everything about the orcs, but it's getting old having a game revolve entirely around two races when we have 13 other races in the game. It's definitely a shake up for the Horde, but with Thrall as the orcs' leader and an adviser to Vol'jin, I expect the orcs are going to have a fresh story of reclaiming their honor. Yes, it's a retread of the whole WCIII/Classic WoW orc story, but history repeats itself, I suppose.

Vol'jin:
What can I say about him. I like vol'jin overall, but this sudden taking the torch is.. just such a removal from the hordes storyline. Well he's shown to be a good commander, and will he is a far better option then Garrosh, having him as warchief just leaves the story making no sense. Imagine your an orc player the first time, you read stories about how orcs formed the horde, how it began on draenor with the orcs, how they were enslaved by the legion, then by the humans, rescued by Thrall, doomhammer sacrificing his life for them, moving to a new land, building there homes there, calling there land durotar, and there city orgrimmar. So a new orc player finds himself in durotar, he goes to orgrimmar, he goes to Grommash hold, everything so far is about orcs and orgrimmar is the hordes capital.. just to find.. the troll leader as his defacto leader.

Well, most of what you're talking about there isn't what a new orc player learns about. They have to really dig to learn the full history of the Horde now, it's not layed out and described to you fully in the first 10 levels of the game. I don't think that'll be confusing at all. You're kind of suggesting if someone plays Horde, the entire game should revolve around the orcs and everything else should be an afterthought so orc players feel like they're the center of the world in their faction.

Plus, Vol'jin HAS held the Horde together. He's pulled them together and led them through all of this, not Thrall. Yet that acceptance was perfect, "I am not worthy....but I will give my all...for the Horde." That's the sort of humility in accepting Allied Supreme Commander I would have loved to see with Varian rather than how they did High King. Vol'jin was done really well there.

Garrosh:
TBH, I don't really care anymore. Given everything else that disappointed me in this final cinematic, this was like the final nail in the coffin, but by this stage I don't give a shit. So he's alive, and facing 'justice' by the pandaren, what, there gonna tickle his feet for the next 20 years? What a mulling waste that could have given some enjoyment, but whatever.

Depends on what they do with it from here. You're the one that's been going on and on about how the Alliance whiners should stop crying about wanting victory and total conquering and look at the big story. Now it's time for you to do the same. This wasn't about revenge, it's about justice and Garrosh has to answer to more than just the Horde. The Horde was going along rather willingly with his war machine until it started turning on them and things started coming apart piece by piece. Had Garrosh not turned on the trolls and started alienating the others, they'd still be supporting full scale war against the Alliance and expansion of the Horde under Garrosh's banner.

I want Garrosh dead, but this is about justice.
"Some who live deserve death, and some who die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be so eager to deal out death and judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Varian:
I've hated this character since he first came into warcraft story much like Garrosh, but over time he developed and matured, and it shows here. I still don't like him much, but at least he shows a far more mature and kingly attitude then any other alliance leader. Not much more need be said about him, he did what he came to do and left, thats that.

Kind of brushed over him a lot didn't you? His interaction with Thrall over Garrosh, his approach to the Horde, that look between him and Thrall, his ultimatum that Vol'jin lead an honorable Horde and the consequences if they don't? Damn fine scene for Varian here.

Jaina:
I can't begin to describe this, but best I can say is, the Jaina I use to know and like from WC3 and on, is now officially dead to me. This thing looking like Jaina isn't her anymore, they couldn't have butchered her character anymore if they tried. He's literally become the sylvanas of the alliance, cold, unfeeling, and overall unpleasent to think about. For a character who use to inspire great promise in peace, she's not that character anymore. I did write in a long review I did of tides of war, the Jaina I knew once died in that book, and none more is it apparent then here. She doesn't even regard Thrall as her friend anymore, despite Garrosh being defeated as she wanted. Honestly, Jaina doesn't exist anymore, she's just a clone of her father now.

I'm okay with her more aggressive attitude and I think her desire to see the Horde disbanded after everything they've done is logical. She holds Thrall responsible, who has done nothing to stop Garrosh until the 11th hour so there's even some love lost there which makes sense. I saw nothing wrong with Jaina's development in MoP other than players who jump to the conclusion that she's crazy. This cinematic, however....I didn't like her. It was the way they animated her and the way her voice actor portrayed her. She came across like Grima Wormtongue with how she said it. Ironically, I could have been fine with the words she said, but the way she said them came across more sinister than she should be.

The alliance:
I'm just gonna say this now, but can you alliance whiners, dear god, shut the hell up! You got your victory, you defeated Garrosh, your alliance is now stronger then ever, and you have nothing toi complain about, coming out on top of all this. If you can't even take that for what it is, your never going to, so if you still feel disappointed in this outcome, i have no sympathy for you. Enjoy your human only story.

You complain about the orcs not being center stage from here on but then you treat it dismissively that humans are the focal point of the Alliance? Not making sense there. In fact, the human only story is something Alliance players haven't been happy with.

I think it's been pretty clear I feel there have been a lot of missteps and poor handling of the Alliance story in MoP. This cinematic and the conclusion, however, makes me quite happy, especially with the things Varian says afterwards. We're going to set up a garrison where Theramore was, we're going to cleanse the plague from Gilneas, and Sylvanas must be contained. Note, he doesn't say we need to destroy her or we need to drive out the Forsaken. Just that she needs to be contained; no more expansion, no more pushing into Arathi Basin, no more conquering for the Horde. The Alliance came out in a strong position and a very good place. He even says what we've been complaining about; the Alliance will no longer react. We are going to be proactive.

So long as we follow through and actually do so, this will be awesome. And with the war ended, it doesn't need to be proactive solely against the Horde.

Taran Zhu.
Kind of glad he survived, guess Garrosh can't kill anyone he tries to without a bomb. And he's right, in he and the pandaren surviing justice on Garrosh for what he did, it would prevent the horde and alliance fighting over who should get to. But, knowing the pandaren, they are obviously not going to kill him, despite Tara having every reason to. Might as well shove Garrosh in a box and have him as a blow up villian for a later story, because thats all he is now.

We've got the scene of Anduin talking to him in his prison. There could be more here, but time will tell. He may just become another Illidan; imprisoned for a while, breaks free, joins the Legion.

I think it's kind of cool we're ending an expansion without killing the final boss, though. It's different.

So much of it all depends on what they do with these different things going forward.

My main disappointment really though, comes from how the orcs, as I say, are now reduced to nothing in this story, a farce even. We're still see orcish structures around, we're still have the orcs as a playable race, but there whole demographic and history has now become meaningless in the story. The whole purpose of the story was to have orcs be the race that overcame things, that showed they were not monsters, and held honor, as well as brotherhood with the rest of the horde.
In the recent story arch, blizzard has outright butchered everything i loved about the orcs, made them into the bad guys again, and even in the end, make it they are no longer the demographic of the horde. In a way, the orcs storyline in warcraft ended this day, and that just feels ... well, dead.

Just because the entire universe won't revolve around the orcs won't shut down WoW and kill the entire game forever, Trassk. You'll be fine, and so will the orcs.

They said the warchief would be unexpected like 2 years ago... Did you want them to just pull a random character out of left field and slap him with the title with no build up or explanation at all?

[Deleted]

Because he's not done anything worthy of the title. Even in the last few patches, we don't see him do anything making him worthy of it.
He got stabbed and then had a novel written about him, well his people are threatened by the kor'kohn. Thrall comes in and saves them. Vol'jin returns and starts the rebellion, but he doesn't even fight against the kor'kohn at sen'jin, Thrall and Chen do.. CHEN, a neutral character does more fighting them he does.
And lets not forget how he didn't do jack to save echo isles for years, leaving his people as mind slaves, also how he sat outside undercity well Thrall and Sylvanas battled varimathras.

Vol'jin might have good intentions, but he's done nothing making him worthy of this title.

Fair enough, I was just wondering. But in any case I think Vol'jin has the potential to be a very good Warchief. He was the boring choice but I'm going to give him a fair chance before I judge.

[FiveOneTwo]

Im ok with vol'jin as the new warcheif. but for me its all about the storyline going forward from here. i really love the increased focus on the playable races and i hope it continues.

so with that said, even though im not crazy about voljin, i am at least curious to know what "vol'jins horde" will be like. another orc leader might have been fine if there was a single orc that would have been qualified that wouldnt have felt like more of the same. if it had been thrall for example my first thought would have probably been "yawn..." because weve seen thrall as warchief. and although he did just fine his decisions werent ever all that interesting. and any other high ranking orcs all seem to fit either a "blood and thunder" brawney warrior archtype or a pseudo-thrall shaman archtype. either one just sounds like more of the same.

the same applies to alliance for me, by the way. varian is alright but fairly predictable and not really very interesting. if the time comes for him to go i have no issue with a leader of another alliance race taking the helm.

as for jaina, i have to disagree with you here OP. i too loved jaina from way back in WC3. and i loved the neutrality of her character, her views on the horde and her friendship with thrall. but when it comes to Jaina, she has probably more than any single character suffered the most betrayal. she was a neutral character that stood for peace, but her city was the one that was completely destroyed by the mana bomb, civilians included. then only months later after struggling to regain a neutral state of mind before taking over as leader of the kirin tor, her neutrality was taken advantage of again by the horde when the portals in dalaran were exploited for the hordes gain.

its one thing to be neutral, but to be attacked and disrespected the way that she has, to stay neutral would make her at best, weak. possibly cowardly. im not sure if i love the seemingly bloodthirsty Jaina we got a glimpse of in the cinematic, but after everything that has happened, her neutral stance, her positive view of the horde, and most importantly her TRUST of the horde, it needed to go. anything less would have not made any sense.

[Crashdummy]

May I just ask if there's actually any reason you dislike Vol'jin as Warchief other than the fact he's not an orc? You say you like Vol'jin in general, so why is he so unsuited to being Warchief?

I like Vol'jin too, but not as Warchief. Why? Because he is just a lesser Thrall. Less powerful, less heroic, less epic, less clever, less everything.

We just got a lesser Thrall version just because Blizzard decided to cater to whiners qqing about Thrall's role in a bad expansion we are ALL trying to forget.

Why is he unsuited to be Warchief? Because he has done NOTHING to deserve it. Not a single thing.

Hell, untill MoP, his only accomplishment was fleing from a Naga with some murlocs.

[mvaliz]

The ironic thing about this is... Thrall, as you saw him in this trailer, really does feel like Thrall as he was before Cata, the orc who was prepared to step up and do what needs to be done. There would have been no better time for him to retake his mantle, but he decided against it, and had someone else take it.
Blizzard, trying to be ironic.

While I agree how they wrote it was poor - but I believe the idea was Thrall accepting it was his mistake, and - more importantly - it was Vol'Jin who kept the Horde Together and freed them from its oppressors, bringing unity and peace back while keeping the Horde together.

Remember when Thrall brought the Orcs together and freed them from their oppressors? Remember when Thrall brought them together in unity and peace while keeping the horde together? Same basic idea...

Sorry, but I think you hate it only because your favorite character, Thrall, is no longer the "primary hero" of the horde anymore - which is nonsense as he still is.

Also, if that doesn't help your attitude, may I remind you that the story goes on. Honestly I wouldn't be a BIT surprised if Vol'Jin is only temporary for a few expansions, and we may see him depart when the finale of the Zandalari saga comes into play - and the Blizz Devs write off Vol'Jin to become the new head of the Zandalari to try to unite the Troll races once again under peace. By that time, they'll have found some new ways for Green Jesus to earn his title back. :P

[Sticky]

Think their commitment to the Horde is much more important...

Best post on here...

[mvaliz]

[QUOTE=Crashdummy;22377046]I like Vol'jin too, but not as Warchief. Why? Because he is just a lesser Thrall. Less powerful, less heroic, less epic, less clever, less everything.-snip-/QUOTE]

How powerful, heroic, epic, clever, everything was Thrall when we first met him in WC3? I'd argue at a SMALLER level than Vol'Jin has demonstrated since.

It's a time for new heroes - and new heroes can only happen through time. Thrall wouldn't be revered today if it wasn't for the outcomes of WC3 and everything that has transpired since.

[militaryspartan]

I'll have to disagree with you on that the horde warchief has to be an orc, but that being said I am a bit disappointed that it was Vol'jin.

He's not a bad choice, just it was a bit too obvious and really kind of lack luster. Dude has heart and he's been around, but there's not much to him. Honestly he feels like a rogue version of a sub-par Thrall.

I would have voted Saurfang just because....well everyone loves Saurfang. Or even Lor'themar would have worked as huge shift in the Horde (let's face it the dude has some major qualifications in his favor).

I'll ask you a quick question though, would you have been a bit more satisfied if they had at least selected someone as the orc racial leader? "Saurfang, I trust you to lead the orcs, but you Vol'jin shall command the horde" or something along those lines.

[Colonel Sandor]

Vol'jin loves the Horde and respects it's honor. With all this "Grr Orc is master race" nonsense, Thrall appointed a Troll to lead, one with honor, commitment, loyalty, and one who is close friends and studied under Thrall. Thrall knew what he was doing and made the right choice. This isnt Orcs vs Humans. This is Horde vs Alliance.