1. #1

    A bit sick of immortal heroes...

    Don't get me wrong - I am not Thrall hater - far from that. However, I think that battle against Deathwing was a pinnacle of his life - he was on top by the end of Cataclysm, and alas, any other deeds would only reduce his epicness. It is in good tragic traditions - a great hero defeats a monster but gets killed by a traitor. His burial would be really EPIC (think of Dumbledore's burial), a bright and tragic point at the end of this life. Trial on Garrosh would be more epic, too.
    But the turn Blizz made.... Too much epicness truns a tradegy into a vulgar fairy tale - beacuse you know - WHATEVER happens, the Hero will always survive, and NOBODY dies, while he's a "good guy". Look, attack of Deathwing, the most powerful creature ever to step at Azeroth - NOBODY died among positive characters. Siege of Orgrimmar? NOBODY DIED (except for cannon fodder such as us).
    And, one more thing here...Did Thrall receive god complex after defeating DW? He got pwned in one-shot, simply cleaved in the face by Garrosh in a fair battle, and laid on the floor while WE fought the "Warchief". And when WE've done the job, he stood up and came along with such a serious face as if it was him alone who defeated the tyrant, looking like a serious judge, like he wasn't lying face down on the floor a minute ago. And this is the second expansion ending cinematic where he plays role. What's next? "You disappoint me, Azshara?" "You disappoint me, Sargeras"? He has an addiction to wait until the raid defeats boss and then triumphantly come and deliver final blow?
    Really, my opinion that Blizzard missed an epic ending and got Mary Sue instead...Unless they already have epic pland for him to be killed, as someone here recently guessed, by Jaina....
    P.S. - I'm really curious to discuss another thing - during the last phase Garrosh mutated into a giant, hulking tentacled monstrosity, with eyes and blight all over him (so similar to Cho'Gall imo), and in cinematic he's clean once again. How did Y'Sharaj's corruption just disappeared without a trace so easily, and he shrinked back to normal orc? Didn't know that corruption was reversible... Did anyone else questioned that too?

  2. #2
    To be fair, it took 10 of us to 'kill' Garrosh and Thrall stood just a little below him during that duel. Pretty sure Thrall is only slightly less powerful than Garrosh. You couldnt solo Garrosh could you?

    During the final fight with Deathwing, it took ALL the remaining dragon aspects collective power to help. The dragon aspects are pretty much dead now since they used up all of their power. Pretty sure they are just fleshy mortals now. Thats a heafty cost right?

    Also, i think the whole corruption thing is like stuff which grows onto the body, like armor? Maybe...i dunno xD

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
    Don't get me wrong - I am not Thrall hater - far from that. However, I think that battle against Deathwing was a pinnacle of his life - he was on top by the end of Cataclysm, and alas, any other deeds would only reduce his epicness. It is in good tragic traditions - a great hero defeats a monster but gets killed by a traitor. His burial would be really EPIC (think of Dumbledore's burial), a bright and tragic point at the end of this life. Trial on Garrosh would be more epic, too.
    But the turn Blizz made.... Too much epicness truns a tradegy into a vulgar fairy tale - beacuse you know - WHATEVER happens, the Hero will always survive, and NOBODY dies, while he's a "good guy". Look, attack of Deathwing, the most powerful creature ever to step at Azeroth - NOBODY died among positive characters. Siege of Orgrimmar? NOBODY DIED (except for cannon fodder such as us).
    And, one more thing here...Did Thrall receive god complex after defeating DW? He got pwned in one-shot, simply cleaved in the face by Garrosh in a fair battle, and laid on the floor while WE fought the "Warchief". And when WE've done the job, he stood up and came along with such a serious face as if it was him alone who defeated the tyrant, looking like a serious judge, like he wasn't lying face down on the floor a minute ago. And this is the second expansion ending cinematic where he plays role. What's next? "You disappoint me, Azshara?" "You disappoint me, Sargeras"? He has an addiction to wait until the raid defeats boss and then triumphantly come and deliver final blow?
    Really, my opinion that Blizzard missed an epic ending and got Mary Sue instead...Unless they already have epic pland for him to be killed, as someone here recently guessed, by Jaina....
    P.S. - I'm really curious to discuss another thing - during the last phase Garrosh mutated into a giant, hulking tentacled monstrosity, with eyes and blight all over him (so similar to Cho'Gall imo), and in cinematic he's clean once again. How did Y'Sharaj's corruption just disappeared without a trace so easily, and he shrinked back to normal orc? Didn't know that corruption was reversible... Did anyone else questioned that too?
    Nazgrim was not nobody.

  4. #4
    Mechagnome drake741's Avatar
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    The old gods always shrink back when we pound them into submission. The"corruption" was Garrosh's negative emotions and Pride, and getting the snot smacked out of you tends to put pride in check rather quickly.
    "I feel bad for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." - Frank Sinatra

  5. #5
    Nazgrim was not nobody.
    Sorry, forgot about him. Though, I actually meant those who stood at the "right side" at the moment. AS for Thrall - he stood against Garrosh for like 3 seconds (like a normal tank), and at that moment Garrosh wasnt'n empowered to full by the Heart, so I think Thrall is not even close. I think Thrall has power of a 5-man boss (5 players would defeat him), and Garrosh with the Heart is surely a raid-boss level, which is definetely MUCH more powerful.
    The old gods always shrink back when we pound them into submission. The"corruption" was Garrosh's negative emotions and Pride, and getting the snot smacked out of you tends to put pride in check rather quickly.
    That's a really convincing guess, thanks!

  6. #6
    We haven't really lost any ''good'' guy of us during the whole expansion. Nazgrim is a traitor, not one of us. The wife of Dezco died trough, which was very sad, but then again she hardly got any screentime. For the rest I don't remember any good guy dying.

    WotLK killed on top of my head Bolvar and Saurfang jr, which in addition created some amazing storytelling for the both of them. The moment Varok carries his dead son back to the airship... those are moments you'd love to see more, but no other expansion delivered.

  7. #7
    Herald of the Titans Khaza-R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    We haven't really lost any ''good'' guy of us during the whole expansion. Nazgrim is a traitor, not one of us. The wife of Dezco died trough, which was very sad, but then again she hardly got any screentime. For the rest I don't remember any good guy dying.
    .
    Technically we're the traitors as we rebelled against the established authority. Nazgrim was just doing his job, being loyal to the Warchief. The Horde also lost Zaela too.

    But I agree, nothing really happened during the War. Vol'jin was attempted to be killed and survived, so did Taran Zhu (twice), and Anduin. Virtually no memorable causalities which makes the war seem a little insignificant. Even Garrosh survived so far.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekura View Post
    To be fair, it took 10 of us to 'kill' Garrosh and Thrall stood just a little below him during that duel. Pretty sure Thrall is only slightly less powerful than Garrosh. You couldnt solo Garrosh could you?

    During the final fight with Deathwing, it took ALL the remaining dragon aspects collective power to help. The dragon aspects are pretty much dead now since they used up all of their power. Pretty sure they are just fleshy mortals now. Thats a heafty cost right?

    Also, i think the whole corruption thing is like stuff which grows onto the body, like armor? Maybe...i dunno xD
    And the only reason it took more then one of us is because it wouldn't be a very good MMO if you could solo relevant raid bosses...

  9. #9
    Technically we're the traitors as we rebelled against the established authority
    That depends - Garrosh was a placeholder and ruled beacuse Thrall was on a mission, but refused to leave. And what is more important - no legality may be when the leader begins to utilise powers like Old Gods'. Following criminal orders doesn't absolve of the guilt. Simply following authority just because it's authority - isn't that a bit slavish? Hitler was elected legally, too. Were those who refused to follow his orders traitiors, or heroes? And Old Gods are much worse, for they would twist you into sha, faceless ones, and there'd be no Horde or anyone else, only Y'Sharaj restored once again. So, rebels are heroes, in my opinion.

  10. #10
    I was honestly thinking about Garrosh shrinking making sense.

    He's drained Y'sharj and is enveloped with the Sha of Pride right?

    Having your own soldiers betray you and try to kill you must be pretty humbling.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    Technically we're the traitors as we rebelled against the established authority. Nazgrim was just doing his job, being loyal to the Warchief. The Horde also lost Zaela too.

    But I agree, nothing really happened during the War. Vol'jin was attempted to be killed and survived, so did Taran Zhu (twice), and Anduin. Virtually no memorable causalities which makes the war seem a little insignificant. Even Garrosh survived so far.
    The entire Golden Lotus, all the Klaxxi Paragons. Half the civilian NPCs in Org. They're not big names, but they are familiar ones, and it is going to be weird not seeing them around anymore. When I found out Garrosh killed all the warlock trainers, that was a pretty big gut punch all on its own.

  12. #12
    Bloodsail Admiral Bristae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
    Don't get me wrong - I am not Thrall hater - far from that.
    I'm not gonna quote you on that... because I don't believe you - far from that....
    Fanboy (Fanboi):
    1. A term used towards someone when a person disagrees with the said someone on a subject, person, place, thing, company, or product line and they are not smart enough to debate their counterpoints or facts, so they resort to childish name calling in hopes of shaming others into silence and thus them winning through dominance.* 2. A term used as a taunt/peer pressure technique to shape popular opinion through shame and humiliation.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekura View Post
    To be fair, it took 10 of us to 'kill' Garrosh and Thrall stood just a little below him during that duel. Pretty sure Thrall is only slightly less powerful than Garrosh. You couldnt solo Garrosh could you?

    During the final fight with Deathwing, it took ALL the remaining dragon aspects collective power to help. The dragon aspects are pretty much dead now since they used up all of their power. Pretty sure they are just fleshy mortals now. Thats a heafty cost right?

    Also, i think the whole corruption thing is like stuff which grows onto the body, like armor? Maybe...i dunno xD
    I'm pretty sure we'll see some Blood DK solo him in LFR mode.
    EU first PG wave 30, come at me bros.

  14. #14
    Herald of the Titans Khaza-R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
    That depends - Garrosh was a placeholder and ruled beacuse Thrall was on a mission, but refused to leave. And what is more important - no legality may be when the leader begins to utilise powers like Old Gods'. Following criminal orders doesn't absolve of the guilt. Simply following authority just because it's authority - isn't that a bit slavish? Hitler was elected legally, too. Were those who refused to follow his orders traitiors, or heroes? And Old Gods are much worse, for they would twist you into sha, faeless ones, and there'd be no Horde or anyone else, only Y'Sharaj restored once again. So, rebels are heroes, in my opinion.
    I think you see it that way because the connotation associated with a traitor is "manipulation, deceit, secrecy, backstabbing" and generally negative qualities.

    Consider this, if we consider a traitor negatively because they betrayed the "good" side then can we consider a traitor positively if they betray the "bad" side?

  15. #15
    Mechagnome SanderZammy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
    And, one more thing here...Did Thrall receive god complex after defeating DW? He got pwned in one-shot, simply cleaved in the face by Garrosh in a fair battle, and laid on the floor while WE fought the "Warchief". And when WE've done the job, he stood up and came along with such a serious face as if it was him alone who defeated the tyrant, looking like a serious judge, like he wasn't lying face down on the floor a minute ago. And this is the second expansion ending cinematic where he plays role. What's next? "You disappoint me, Azshara?" "You disappoint me, Sargeras"? He has an addiction to wait until the raid defeats boss and then triumphantly come and deliver final blow?
    Well, the lore version is that Thrall *was* the one to 'defeat' Garrosh, but having your raid group stand on the side while watching Thrall punch Garrosh doesn't really work in a game. Just like "we" didn't defeat the Lich King, Tyrion did. What really happens in battles like these is not really shown in-game, basically because of gameplay reasons.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
    What's next? "You disappoint me, Azshara?" "You disappoint me, Sargeras"?
    oh God, this made me laugh too hard....

    Kudos man.

    Also, to others referring to ''lol 10 of us defeated garrosh 111!!''.
    Gameplay =/= Lore.

    Yes, the devs stated that we're one of the main forces there fighting Garrosh and that we're responsible for defeating him.
    That doesn't mean that a blood dk soloing him on flex was the one who dethroned the warchief.

    Plus, Thrall was there, as were other people...

  17. #17
    Moderator Sj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SanderZammy View Post
    Well, the lore version is that Thrall *was* the one to 'defeat' Garrosh, but having your raid group stand on the side while watching Thrall punch Garrosh doesn't really work in a game. Just like "we" didn't defeat the Lich King, Tyrion did. What really happens in battles like these is not really shown in-game, basically because of gameplay reasons.
    Same as how Varian killed Onyxia. You'll always hear raiders referred to as "a band of heroes" when NPCs discuss the deaths of raid bosses. We're just the helpers.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Drilnos View Post
    Nazgrim was not nobody.
    Nazgrim was my everything! <3

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