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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    The Alliance should not have a leader.
    While I actually liked the idea of High King they've teetered on a knifes edge about it's role as purely military which is a problem.

    The Alliance is an alliance of nations (shockingly) and for this reason has been and should always be governed as a collective through council of the leader where everybody is equal and has a voice.
    The alliance shouldn't be governing anyone. Governing should be down by the individual nations. A council to decide purely military things would be ideal.

    So long as the Forsaken exist within the Horde they will never be as unified. They are certainly not more unified atm by any stretch, many of the Orcs will still feel partial to what Garrosh taught the Orcs and most likely many will object to a Troll being Warchief. I seem to recall Lor'themar directly hints at it being a stretch to get Sylvanas's loyalty after Garrosh's defeat.
    And yet Sylvanas personally went to Orgrimmar to assist the rebellion when she didn't have to. She accepted Vol'jin as her warchief as well.

  2. #42
    The Lightbringer Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    I doubt all the orcs fought in the revolution. There is bound to be some who were not in Orgrimmar or who were "civilians". And even so, those who fought for the revolution may have some mixed feelings about following a Troll. The Warchief always was an Orc before. For some, it must be humiliating that the Orcs wont lead the Horde anymore. Moral may be low.
    Like I said, dead, dying or irrelevant. The Horde isn't a democracy.

    Velen was summoned, he did not come.
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  3. #43
    Elemental Lord Snowraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    You know, many keep going with this council's idea about the Horde, which doesn't fit at all, failing to understand that in fact is the Alliance the kind of faction in which such a way of leading would be perfect. Just look at Horde and Alliance before WotLK: the Horde with Thrall as figurehead, the Alliance with none but a Regent Lord in Stormwind, Magni in Ironforge, Gelbin as a "guest" of the previous one (due to the loss of Gnomeregan) and the newly added night elves minding a good bunch of their own businesses; no one was the big boss of the Alliance, but still this worked pretty well with them, and would work again now that Garrosh is not a global threat anymore.
    Yea, funny thing is that the roles are reversed in a way.

    Vol'jin had to convince the other leaders to join him, thus making a sort of council in a way. Varian became blue warchief.

    Really, I just want my council back to the Alliance.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
    Basic Campfire!
    no ? ok Anduin would make the most logical choice, But lets throw logic out of the window shall we ?

    Lets devolve the Wrynn monarchy on the death of Varian and have Anduin ascend to the throne and take away it's military and political power, instead having it as a figure head who has no real power other than that of a diplomat at the behest of the council, which Anduin could quite easily accomplish.

    The political and military might of the Alliance would then be handled by council of the existing leaders, each having there own vote.
    Decisions made by the council would work on a round table majority system, and there would be no over all leader.

    Tyrande Whisperwind (Darnassus)
    Jaina Proudmoore (Dalaran)
    Genn Greymane (Gilneas)
    Prophet Velen (Exodar)
    Gelbin Mekkatorque (Gnomeregan)
    Aysa Cloudsinger (Tushui Pandaren)
    Council of three hammers (Dwarves)*

    *Council of three hammers is more complex as they are already a council, but only a unified decision by all three would count as a single vote in the over all alliance council.

    as for a spokes person to announce decisions, then there is only on real choice.... BUD!
    That is actually one of the best ideas I've ever heard!

  4. #44
    I don't think the High King is all that powerful as the name implies. I don't think he has any say what goes on in the other nations of the Alliance.
    When he asked the dwarves for help two out of three flat out refused after all.

  5. #45
    Varian should be limited to be the King of Stormwind and as a far the leader and representative of humans (because Stormwind is the most important human kingdom currently).

    However I support that the Alliance as a whole should continue to have a Leader or High King (aka Supreme Commander of the Alliance), as a visible head and organizer of all the heterogeneity of the races that make up the Alliance.

    And as the main force of the Alliance are still humans (as in the Horde were the orcs until now), the High King or the Supreme Commander of the Alliance should be a human, and I vote for the High General Turalyon, heir of Sir Lothar, the Lion and Knight Champion of Azeroth.

  6. #46
    Mechagnome Time Sage's Avatar
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    Except Turalyon has been missing for years, presumed dead by many and blizzard shows no signs for picking up a plot thread they cut from BC

  7. #47
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowraven View Post
    Yea, funny thing is that the roles are reversed in a way.

    Vol'jin had to convince the other leaders to join him, thus making a sort of council in a way. Varian became blue warchief.

    Really, I just want my council back to the Alliance.
    oh so YOUR unhappy with whats happening with your faction. well isn't that peachy, guess your be lead by Varian from now on calling all the shots well the other leaders dwindle. At least the horde managed to develop its own nations without one person telling them how to live. Have a good time with that
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon2K View Post
    I don't think the High King is all that powerful as the name implies. I don't think he has any say what goes on in the other nations of the Alliance.
    When he asked the dwarves for help two out of three flat out refused after all.
    That's the point. Varian has no power to demand anything from the races of AA. He is supreme commander of AA's army which is military position. Each race of AA will always rule itself. Some people still don't get it.
    Last edited by Wildmoon; 2013-09-15 at 01:29 PM.

  9. #49
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    The alliance shouldn't be governing anyone. Governing should be down by the individual nations. A council to decide purely military things would be ideal.
    Sometimes laws and acts need to passed that affect them all and need the approval of the whole Alliance. The Internment of the Orcs being the best example and the tax that the nations had to pay to fund them.

    I'm not implying that every damn thing each nation does should be down to a council. They are independent. I am referring to moments such as the one I listed. Apparently Varian's actions in SoO were decided upon by the Alliance, Blizzard just decided it would be boring to put that in the cinematic. I whole heatedly disagree with that, but hey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    And yet Sylvanas personally went to Orgrimmar to assist the rebellion when she didn't have to. She accepted Vol'jin as her warchief as well.
    What's your point? She went to Orgrimmar because it benefited her and was expected of her. If you seriously think she is loyal or agrees with much of the Horde then you haven't ever payed attention to her as a character.

    In either case, it is a joke to suggest the Horde atm is more or even the same in it's unity as the Alliance.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-09-15 at 01:30 PM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Humbugged View Post
    Using the same logic people used in regards to Lor'themar becoming the Horde's warchief, since Moira got some development last patch she should definitely become High Queen of the Alliance.
    You meant the Short Queen of the Alliance?

  11. #51
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Actually, thinking about it, well the horde has lost its identity in this, something else is very apparent from this trailer too. The alliance has no identity outside of Varian and his role.

    Really, not so much 'the alliance', rather 'Varian and those other guys'.
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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    The alliance shouldn't be governing anyone. Governing should be down by the individual nations. A council to decide purely military things would be ideal.
    Governing is done by the individual nations. Varian was chosen as High King by the different nations in a council. He did not impose himself, nor was he imposed by anyone on the others (like Garrosh was by Thrall). Varian still ask them for advices. Even a council needs someone to lead it. Military matters are precisely a domaine where a council may be a hinderance instead of an asset. In a war, you need a commander to call the shots, because decisions must be done quickly. That commander is Varian. Now that the war is over (more or less), we will see how the Alliance governs itself. At least now, the Alliance has a consistant strategy, instead of being the headless hen it was before.

    A council really shines for long term strategy, trade agreements, settling disputes between nation members, etc. So no, an Alliance Council should not be only for military purpose.

    And yet Sylvanas personally went to Orgrimmar to assist the rebellion when she didn't have to. She accepted Vol'jin as her warchief as well.
    Sylvanas had a lot to gain by helping the rebellion. Remember those Kor'kron in her throne room (which has no throne but anyway)? With the Orcs crippled and rebuilding, Vol'jin will have a hard time to keep an eye on Sylvanas business. It was very much in her interest to see Garrosh fall. I also like that in the cutscene, we see Sylvanas barely bow before Vol'jin. And who is with her? Galliwyx! The Stinky Couple of the Horde...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    The fact that neither Velen nor Genn sent troops to Orgrimmar makes the alliance look less unified than the horde which had every race send troops.

    Those draenei at Lion's Landing weren't under Varian's command either. Velen has never given support to Varian's High King crap.
    The Draenei and Worgen in Lion's Landing formed pretty much the bulk of the troops there. They all were in Alliance uniforms, with the Lion tabard and all. They were under Alliance command and at Varian's command.

    I agree with you on one point : we don't see enough of Velen and the Draenei.
    Last edited by Frontenac; 2013-09-15 at 01:45 PM.
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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    It wasn't shown in game but Velen healed Anduin. Velen wasn't invited to Darnassus(he was the only one who wasn't invited) in Wolfheart but he went there himself. Tyrande didn't invite him because she thought he declared himself neutral after the sunwell incident. Velen DISMISSED that claim and said he was willing to support the AA.
    Calling Elune a Naaru surely endeared himself to the night elves!
    Last edited by NotFunny008; 2013-09-15 at 01:57 PM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    Varian should be limited to be the King of Stormwind and as a far the leader and representative of humans (because Stormwind is the most important human kingdom currently).

    However I support that the Alliance as a whole should continue to have a Leader or High King (aka Supreme Commander of the Alliance), as a visible head and organizer of all the heterogeneity of the races that make up the Alliance.

    And as the main force of the Alliance are still humans (as in the Horde were the orcs until now), the High King or the Supreme Commander of the Alliance should be a human, and I vote for the High General Turalyon, heir of Sir Lothar, the Lion and Knight Champion of Azeroth.
    Wait... You would give the reins of the Alliance to a guy who has been missing for years and, should he finally reappear, has no idea whatsoever what happened during his absence and what the Alliance is all about these days? I mean, he doesn't even know that Night Elves exist.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  15. #55
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    Wait... You would give the reins of the Alliance to a guy who has been missing for years and, should he finally reappear, has no idea whatsoever what happened during his absence and what the Alliance is all about these days? I mean, he doesn't even know that Night Elves exist.
    Well that seems to be the direction where the story goes now. apparently a head leader doesn't need to have any connection to the story or having done anything, he just needs to be there now. love blizzards writing don't you?
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  16. #56
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    I'm not sure if this is true but I remember reading that there was meant to be more Varian stuff between 5.1 and 5.4 with the "Trials of the High King" but they scrapped it because of the anger of Varian becoming the be all and end all of the Alliance.

    Whilst I do want the other races to be more prominent i'm not sure a council is the best idea, as the saying goes "A camel is a horse designed by committee".

    I'd like to see the races be more separated and individual as opposed to united.

    Worgen/Humans dealing with Gilneas and Sylvanas unless they really need help to draft the others in. Night Elves dealing with Azshara/Naga/Felwood corruption. Dwarves dealing with more trolls.

    As opposed to every conflict being "the Alliance force" which just ends up being Humans, humans and more humans.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    Wait... You would give the reins of the Alliance to a guy who has been missing for years and, should he finally reappear, has no idea whatsoever what happened during his absence and what the Alliance is all about these days? I mean, he doesn't even know that Night Elves exist.
    Yes, it may seem strange, but once Turalyon returns (which is confirmed by Blizzard) he would be the iconic leader that the Alliance needs (with more reason if Varian disappears).

    Obviously he would have to catch up and learn about the many things that have happened to the Alliance since he left, but still his experience will be invaluable, especially for the events that are to come.

    Also, if Anduin will eventually has to become the leader of the army of light, Turalyon will have much to teach him, in fact, like Turalyon was the heir of Sir Lothar, Anduin will be the heir of Turalyon, the bearer of the Great Royal Sword.

  18. #58
    Herald of the Titans Haidaes's Avatar
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    It quite amusing how people think a council has anything to do with democracy. That would only be true, at least to some degree, if any of the faction leaders were elected. Lets take a look:

    Humans: Absolute monarchy.
    Dwarves: Council of monarchs/aristocrats
    Night Elves: Religious something I don't know the name for. might fit Meritocracy/Timocracy.
    Gnomes: Technocracy, he was elected though, so kinda democratic as well.
    Draenei: Religious something I don't know the name for. might fit Meritocracy/Timocracy or Geniocracy.
    Worgen: Absolute monarchy.
    Wandering Isle Pandaren: Yeah we all know they were forgotten after the starting zone.

    Orcs: Autocracy.
    Trolls (Darkspear): Tribal monarchy or something. Not really sure how to classify tribal structures.
    Tauren: Tribal monarchy or something. Not really sure how to classify tribal structures.
    Forsaken: Kratocracy.
    Blood Elves: Used to be absolute monarchy, now .. well they are in an interregnum.. Timocracy maybe.
    Goblin: No one really knows I guess, its because Thrall said so. Kratocracy according to the definiton.
    Wandering Isle Pandaren: Yeah we all know they were forgotten after the starting zone.

    The only race I could find, after a quick search, that actually has any democratic structures are gnomes. Every other leader either inherited leadership or seized it at some point (not always because they wanted it). A council solution, except for gnomes, means just that all member races leaders are equal in the faction, and nothing more. It doesn't mean anyone in the general populace ever had, has or ever will have a say in any important matter.

  19. #59
    Warchief Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    Wait... You would give the reins of the Alliance to a guy who has been missing for years and, should he finally reappear, has no idea whatsoever what happened during his absence and what the Alliance is all about these days? I mean, he doesn't even know that Night Elves exist.
    Well...it's Northem, he always puts his "roleplaying fantasies" into discussion, no matter how the story is really moving on.

    Anyway, Turalyon have the potential to be a great character, if only Blizzard will dare to reveal him. A badass paladin like Tirion, but unlike Tirion he's the greatest hero the Alliance had ever known, no way he could become neutral (since Tirion was already developed in Metzen's novel in that way).
    Darkspear never die.

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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    The Alliance should not have a leader.
    While I actually liked the idea of High King they've teetered on a knifes edge about it's role as purely military which is a problem.

    The Alliance is an alliance of nations (shockingly) and for this reason has been and should always be governed as a collective through council of the leader where everybody is equal and has a voice.
    This, pretty much. Having a single unelected leader seems pretty ridiculous to me. He may have done some stuff to prove that he's a good candidate (though maybe not the best), and he's certainly able to wade into a fight and handle politics as well, but he's just one man. I think that, even if he is the 'High King', there should be a Council of other leaders and advisors who can overrule him if they think he's going too far. Checks and balances.

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