I am requiring my guild to do their spec's "Gold" Proving Grounds - thoughts?

[l33t]

Slippery slope and hyperbole all in one! Congrats!

I wonder if you should engage yourself in some reading involved achievement, because you certainly lack reading skills.
I'll post this once more:

I've completed healer's endless 30 with my Holy Priest the first day patch go live, and I assure you, it has NOTHING in common with challenges healers meet in raids, nor it can teach a healer something useful for his raiding.

It's neither hyperbole nor slippery-slope. You are free to do whatever you want in yor guild, but if you were my raid leader and make such claims, I'll just leave your guild. You are already bad on progress. Going mad on people won't solve anything.

[Pengalor]

Well, I do agree that some group requirements are ridiculous. PuGs, I mean. I know for a fact next week they are going to ask raiders to link a piece of flex loot or an achievement for the first 4 bosses in this week just to get in to new flex raids. It's silly.

For the guild, it's a very easy test to see who wants to be carried and who doesn't. Also, as someone mentioned on page 2, a player with a good attitude who is learning can be turned in to a good player. The players asking for help - and learning - are the ones that I want.

Here's the problem with that: players who want to learn for their own improvement do so on their own. What you're seeing is people who want to stay in the raid. Your test doesn't weed out people who will put in the bare minimum effort to maintain the status quo (in my experience, that's going to be a large part of the raid).

[Tankitbetter]

I'll post this once more:

I'm sorry, but that's the stupidest idea I've ever heard. What will you require after they get gold in PG? 1700+ in arena to show their reactions? Completion of pet ahievements to show readiness to spent lots of time? 200 mounts to be sure they have money to raid? Pfft.

I fixed it for you!

[kamuimac]

Good things, no?

good but it will all fall apart when ull hit harder boss and people realise that its not about what they learned in PG only about raid execution of mechanics - they will realise that what they did in PG is usless cause actual raid requires them to use much less abilities in compeltely different way that they used in PG.
tbh for performance it owudl be much more valuable if they got 2-3 more 535 items from timeless isle and watch strat videos before raid then waste time on gold in PG -_-

[Tankitbetter]

Here's the problem with that: players who want to learn for their own improvement do so on their own. What you're seeing is people who want to stay in the raid. Your test doesn't weed out people who will put in the bare minimum effort to maintain the status quo (in my experience, that's going to be a large part of the raid).

That's a decent point, Pengalor, and not one that I had really thought of too much. I suppose you're right - they will try to squeak by with the bare minimum - but if me putting small requirements brings them up to a level where the bare minimum kills bosses, I'm not really too upset with that.

I mean, I prefer the people who have legendary meta's and cloaks, but I'm certainly not going to punish those that don't or reward those that do. /shrug

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good but it will all fall apart when ull hit harder boss and people realise that its not about what they learned in PG only about raid execution of mechanics - they will realise that what they did in PG is usless cause actual raid requires them to use much less abilities in compeltely different way that they used in PG.
tbh for performance it owudl be much more valuable if they got 2-3 more 535 items from timeless isle and watch strat videos before raid then waste time on gold in PG -_-

1: People, in general, overestimate the power of a few gear pieces. When my guild fell apart near the end of BC, we re-rolled horde. We cleared Illidan in blues and a few people had greens. Having skill is much better than gear. I am in no way denying the power of gear - I am, however, disagreeing with your assertion that upgrading a 502 piece to a 535 piece would be better than becoming a better player.
2: This helps improve their skill.

[deadman1]

PGs for DPS at least teach you three things and three things only;

1. Target Priority
2. Interrupting
3. Dodging balls.

You would have to make a pretty large effort to get to level 90 without knowing those things.

I'll give you a good way to teach people how to raid, it's called raiding. Bring them into a raid and make them raid if you want them to be better raiders.

[NeverStop]

PGs for DPS at least teach you three things and three things only;

1. Target Priority
2. Interrupting
3. Dodging balls.

You would have to make a pretty large effort to get to level 90 without knowing those things.

I'll give you a good way to teach people how to raid, it's called raiding. Bring them into a raid and make them raid if you want them to be better raiders.

If it's so easy to get Gold then why are there people who claim to be good yet can't get Gold?

[Tankitbetter]

PGs for DPS at least teach you three things and three things only;

1. Target Priority
2. Interrupting
3. Dodging balls.

You would have to make a pretty large effort to get to level 90 without knowing those things.

I'll give you a good way to teach people how to raid, it's called raiding. Bring them into a raid and make them raid if you want them to be better raiders.

4: Burst CDs and how to manage them effectively (something some of us wish our raiders knew how to do back on Heroic Spine)

Of course raiding will make them better raiders. But you can't say that "Because raiding will make better raiders, proving grounds will not make them better players."

That's just silly. Don't be silly, Mush.

[kamuimac]

1: People, in general, overestimate the power of a few gear pieces. When my guild fell apart near the end of BC, we re-rolled horde. We cleared Illidan in blues and a few people had greens. Having skill is much better than gear.

but ur deliberatly missing the point - they are learning not the skills they should be learning >< ofc they will have better understanding of their class a bit but it wont help them in real progress cause this one will require compeltly differnet things done in differnet way from them -_-

[Tankitbetter]

If it's so easy to get Gold then why are there people who claim to be good yet can't get Gold?

I chuckle when they say "it's my spec! I'm a fire mage!" when my fire mage friend 2-shot gold. /shrug

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I don't think it particularly makes a lot of sense to require it, that being said, it would certainly help you out to weed out the unadaptive players. Someone unable to get gold is most certainly getting carried. This is especially true of the healer challenge, since while it doesnt' translate at all into a raiding situation in terms of the way you're going to heal, it perfectly translate into making them do something else than play whack-a-mole with their grid.

Either way, your guild, your rules. And while you may lose some raiders to this, keep in mind that you may also gain some other people who might get attracted by this condition.

Ultimately don't think it matters a lot.

That is incredibly succinct. I nominate you for winner of this thread.

[Amerrol]

My point exactly, Amerrol :P

If that was your point, than you wouldn't require them to do Gold PG to raid. You should judge them on their performance in raids, not on side content that isn't similar to raiding at all.

You said you just started raiding this week, and many of your members have only ever done LFR, yet you seem to be holding them to the extremely high standard of yourself and your friends, all former heroic raiders. Take a few weeks to get a feel for the raiders you don't know, then you can start weeding out the people you don't want. I know it must be frustrating because you want to progress as fast as possible, but no matter if these people can do Endless wave 50, they're still going to have to adjust to raiding, which may take a while.

[Tankitbetter]

If that was your point, than you wouldn't require them to do Gold PG to raid. You should judge them on their performance in raids, not on side content that isn't similar to raiding at all.

You said you just started raiding this week, and many of your members have only ever done LFR, yet you seem to be holding them to the extremely high standard of yourself and your friends, all former heroic raiders. Take a few weeks to get a feel for the raiders you don't know, then you can start weeding out the people you don't want. I know it must be frustrating because you want to progress as fast as possible, but no matter if these people can do Endless wave 50, they're still going to have to adjust to raiding, which may take a while.

Hmmm. I'll sleep on it. You're right that I think very differently than many players do - it comes from a long time HC raiding and a very long time playing.

Really, the issue at this point is is that we have 4-5 people who haven't done it yet. If I now yank back the requirement after the other 10-12 did it, it could be seen as favoritism, dishonest, etc.

BTW, your priest's name is very familiar. Where would I have seen it?

[SinisterAUS]

A guild has it's own policies, REPORT THEM!

[l33t]

I fixed it for you!

I wonder why bother posting your thread here, asking for people's opinions on the matter and then just shrug off valid arguments.

[deadman1]

4: Burst CDs and how to manage them effectively (something some of us wish our raiders knew how to do back on Heroic Spine)

Of course raiding will make them better raiders. But you can't say that "Because raiding will make better raiders, proving grounds will not make them better players."

That's just silly. Don't be silly, Mush.

Don't call me silly, and how does it teach you to use CDs? Plus heroic spine really? Is that why you are doing flex with a bunch of people who don't know their own spells ?

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If it's so easy to get Gold then why are there people who claim to be good yet can't get Gold?

It's not 100% about skill, PGs just aren't made for some classes. Some classes one shot every wave, others cant get past silver. It's just imbalanced, but hey what do you expect, Blizzard made it.

[Amerrol]

BTW, your priest's name is very familiar. Where would I have seen it?

WoW forums?

I'd have to know your characters name to try to give you an idea. I figure it has to be a fairly common character name, though.

[deadman1]

I chuckle when they say "it's my spec! I'm a fire mage!" when my fire mage friend 2-shot gold. /shrug

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That is incredibly succinct. I nominate you for winner of this thread.

To the first part, no lol.

To the second part, all I've seen in this thread is you masturbate the egos of everyone that agrees with you, and insult everyone that disagrees with you. In short, why did you make this thread, are you just one of those people who likes to hear themselves talk?

[Tankitbetter]

Don't call me silly, and how does it teach you to use CDs? Plus heroic spine really? Is that why you are doing flex with a bunch of people who don't know their own spells ?

Killed H Spine during the 5 or 10% buff. I forget. Also was in Death & Taxes - you know, over a dozen world firsts, over 15 US firsts, etc. It's all in the past. I'm 28 years old with a job, a boyfriend, and a life outside of WoW. I still love playing WoW but I don't have time to commit to more than 1 night a week. Thus, my other older friends and the casual flex raid night guild. We actually all resubbed just for flex raiding. It's been fun.

It's not 100% about skill, PGs just aren't made for some classes. Some classes one shot every wave, others cant get past silver. It's just imbalanced, but hey what do you expect, Blizzard made it.

I'm curious what class can't get past silver? I've heard healing monks, but we don't have that issue. I've heard fire mages, but my fire mage friend did it. So did my affliction lock friend.

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I've been insulting? I mean, other than that one guy who was just being hateful I don't think I've been insulting.

Disagreeing, sure. But insulting? Nah.

[Deleted]

Enjoy not having a balance druid in your raids I guess

[Deleted]

Please stop doing this immediately.