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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    Did it only once for shit and giggles, just to see what it is all about... Tried as healer, and wiped twice on Silver..
    Why?
    I have no clue, since the wipes happened once due to expired time, and I cannot control where my group stands. If they stand in fire like the stupid enemy king moving into a fire square during Kara chess, my healing skills are rather insufficient. And Resto Druids aren't exactly the kings of damage dealing in healer spec.
    I can throw some Farie Fires, a Moonfire here and there, and for a little while I can even help with dps popping HotW.
    It may be easy, when giving a little more thought, otherwise it certainly is not as easy as some make it sound it is.

    To require Gold in the main spec of a players toon, for a heavily progression oriented guild may be okay. I can see that. But for a casual guild that raids once a week with little progression motivation I think it's an overkill, and may be the death of the raid team.
    Let alone that I do not think how Blizzard put proving grounds into the game to be abused as just another unreasonable requirement made up in players minds.
    I think requiring gold from proving grounds is MORE valuable for casual guilds. Progression oriented guilds already know their players can play their class, that's how they got into the guild.

  2. #322
    Titan Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blayze View Post
    Before Blizzard can do that and expect it to fly, they'll have to provide spec-specific modifications to Proving Grounds to ensure all specs can perform at the same level. And they'll have to make sure they haven't fucked with that balance every single patch.
    If I am not mistaken, I remember something like Silver is already sufficient for raiding quality. Overall Proving grounds are mainly meant for people to try specs they are new to or aren't comfortable with, so they don't have to bother groups with their "getting used to" learning curve.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsubodia View Post
    well considering the leader boards are dominated by dks (check top 100 endless scores) it says a lot about class balance in there. if you look through you can see which class struggles and then when you htink about said classes ability and game play it becomes obvious.
    There's always going to be one class that's better than the others. That's how balancing works. It doesn't mean it's cake for that class. And if I'm not mistaken, I see a variety of color in the top 100 and a mage in the lead by a lot... that's 15 more waves than the next unless he somehow cheated.

  4. #324
    Brewmaster cyqu's Avatar
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    getting gold is a joke, and some people have trouble coming face to face with the fact that they are not good at this game, seeing as proving grounds is a solo affair they have no one to blame but themselves for failure and in turn cannot handle doing your required task.
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  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon View Post
    I seriously hope this will backfire and your guild/raid disbands over this. You deserve it.
    I agree with this.

    Does getting gold mean that a certain player is a good raider? I think not. You could aswell require people to have 100 mounts or have 10000 achievement points. That's just as silly. If my guild leader required me to get gold, I'd consider leaving the guild even if it was easy to get gold.

  6. #326
    Its not a bad idea but you might have given a too tight time limit. Proving grounds is not like raiding, warrior dont glyph gag order as dps yet in pg it makes it a cakewalk. Some robot raiders who reads up stuff can find it annoying to read strat for it. Good players will adapt to it. Some will leave pre emptively because they think you are an elitist calling them bad.

    I can see how someone without time to spare would rather skip it.

    Pg is flawed too while hit capped n exp cap ive had special attack miss?

    Class balance is also an issues, its much easier for a monk who has stun and paralyse than priest who can barely dps on the move. Also spec... arms > fury frost mage > fire

    I did them already on my monk as dps and tank with 2 piece under 463 no gems and no enchant. So for a serious raiding guild i personally dont think its too much. Id still give them atleast 2 week to do them probably more.

    I got endless tank wave 15 but eendless dps 6 so might be worse a tank that cant do it than a dps, its to be taken with a grain of salt.

    Also you could specifically target ur new guys\bad guys as elitist will get butthurt that you require something outside raids

  7. #327
    Titan Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    I think requiring gold from proving grounds is MORE valuable for casual guilds. Progression oriented guilds already know their players can play their class, that's how they got into the guild.
    I agree with the second sentence... The first sentence is valid for guilds that want to change their perspective.
    You don't need any special requirements if all you wanna do is raiding once a week, and kill maybe one or 2 bosses at the groups leisure. That's why they are casual guilds in the first place. They don't really care about the progress too much.

    People underestimate casual approach times and again. I used to be in a guild that raided 10/25m weekly, three days a week, and yet still with one key aspect in mind. To meet and have fun with 9/24 guild friends. Raiding was fun, and a lot of laughter. We progressed, sometimes more, sometimes less. The guild managed to be in 6th place on the realm for up to Ulduar with that method. There were only 3 more serious requirements. Bring your food and elixirs. And don't be a loot whore.
    At some point a handful of players became obsessed with progression. They've influenced the Guild Leader into more serious semi hardcore approach. Within 1 month the guild fell behind on realm ranking, since the semi hardcore raid didn't perform anywhere as good as the collective of friends, within 6 month the guild which had over 600 members outright disbanded. It fell apart, since it was built for casual past time game play, and the changes didn't fly with the members at all.
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  8. #328
    Brewmaster cyqu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael123 View Post
    I agree with this.

    Does getting gold mean that a certain player is a good raider? I think not. You could aswell require people to have 100 mounts or have 10000 achievement points. That's just as silly. If my guild leader required me to get gold, I'd consider leaving the guild even if it was easy to get gold.
    if its so easy then why is it a problem to take a small amount of your time to do it? are you not required to get flasks/pots/food before each raid day? are you not expected to farm gear at the beginning of each xpac and tier and show up at your best?
    if so how is this any different?
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  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    I agree with the second sentence... The first sentence is valid for guilds that want to change their perspective.
    You don't need any special requirements if all you wanna do is raiding once a week, and kill maybe one or 2 bosses at the groups leisure. That's why they are casual guilds in the first place. They don't really care about the progress too much.

    People underestimate casual approach times and again. I used to be in a guild that raided 10/25m weekly, three days a week, and yet still with one key aspect in mind. To meet and have fun with 9/24 guild friends. Raiding was fun, and a lot of laughter. We progressed, sometimes more, sometimes less. The guild managed to be in 6th place on the realm for up to Ulduar with that method. There were only 3 more serious requirements. Bring your food and elixirs. And don't be a loot whore.
    At some point a handful of players became obsessed with progression. They've influenced the Guild Leader into more serious semi hardcore approach. Within 1 month the guild fell behind on realm ranking, since the semi hardcore raid didn't perform anywhere as good as the collective of friends, within 6 month the guild which had over 600 members outright disbanded. It fell apart, since it was built for casual past time game play, and the changes didn't fly with the members at all.
    Asking someone to do the proving grounds doesn't mean you can't still be casual. And if you're only clearing 1-2 bosses then you REALLY need to do them.

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    A raid leader is not a boss or supervisor, despite what many seem to think. You don't make demands like that of people unless you expect a few of them to tell you to screw off. Until you pay their subscription, you don't get to order people to do X content.
    If people play in your guild, in your raids, its your rules or gtfo.

  11. #331
    Brewmaster cyqu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    A raid leader is not a boss or supervisor, despite what many seem to think. You don't make demands like that of people unless you expect a few of them to tell you to screw off. Until you pay their subscription, you don't get to order people to do X content.
    i guess you don't understand leadership or how raiding/guilds work then, and by just guessing that nobleshield of turalyon is you then im not sure you ever will get how raiding guilds work.
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  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Traxex9080 View Post
    There's always going to be one class that's better than the others. That's how balancing works. It doesn't mean it's cake for that class. And if I'm not mistaken, I see a variety of color in the top 100 and a mage in the lead by a lot... that's 15 more waves than the next unless he somehow cheated.
    39% of the top 100 is DK... and saying one class is better than others because thats balancing? surely that would mean each and all class has it just as easy.

    if you want a full break down

    dk = 39%
    mage = 16%
    hunter = 12%
    lock = 12%
    monk = 6%
    priest = 5%
    rogue = 5%
    warrior = 3%
    shaman = 1%

    Druids and palas dont even make the top 100

    80% of the top 100 are made up of 4 classes.

    the imbalance is very easy to see. (ofc this is referring to endless mode) but if anything it highlights a huge class parody

  13. #333
    Threads like this bring out the "real" raiders (the ones who don't see a problem with something as trivial as PG) and the "players who think they are real raiders".

    It's almost like back in BC when I told my guild we were going to transition to a heroic guild in LK and every single one (even though I knew 2-5 would make it) said "oh yea, that's a great decision". First week, only 2 people were 85. Second week, 5, third week 15. Needless to say we went in on 10, wiped it up all night, gquit and actually went somewhere that players could move from things.

    Sadly, LFR raiders think they can down heroic bosses yet they don't realize LFR is all they could do even if they had all the time in the world to play.

  14. #334
    Epic! twistedsista's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traxex9080 View Post
    Trust me, if you're in a guild that cares enough to require proving grounds or brawlers guild or other extensive requirements for their raiders that they've raided with for month or even years, they don't care if you leave or get kicked. I have experience in top world guilds and they kick people from the guild if they mess up once (expecially trials when they're nervous). It's basically a test of loyalty and dedication. Can't do it? gkick. Seen it done. Top guilds don't give 2 shits about their players, they play like it's their job. They'll do whatever they have to to get the best players into the raid.
    i dont dispute that for one minute, mate.

  15. #335
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    Thank you OP for your post.It reminded me of why i stopped raiding in tier 12 and stay clear of the corrupt totalitarian regime known as the "Raiding Guild".Who are you to tell people what content to run.Do you pay their subs?????I hope they all /gquit.
    You try and you fail,but the only true failure is when you quit trying.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by cyqu View Post
    i guess you don't understand leadership or how raiding/guilds work then, and by just guessing that nobleshield of turalyon is you then im not sure you ever will get how raiding guilds work.
    No man, don't you know, being on a football, basketball, baseball or any other team, you do whatever the hell you want, when you want it. You didn't know that? You have that freedom since the coach didn't pay for your uniform or gear.

  17. #337
    I think it's a MUCH MUCH better metric at measuring raid worthiness than ilvl alone.

    I would love to see people say "LFM XXXXX raid. PST Gold achievement" instead of basing everything on this magical ilvl number. ilvl matters i.e. can't be three tiers behind, but being able to play your class at the most basic level means more.

    I'd rather have someone who knows wtf they are doing and has slightly worse gear, than someone who is carried by their gear and messes up simple mechanics/target switching/interrupts/etc. Gold mode is NOT HARD. It takes 30 minutes so go through bronze, silver and gold for your spec so I don't buy the "I don't have time and I don't have to do it" complainers. If you can't do it, you need to learn your class. You can't complain about people having better gear since its all scaled down. Gold is a good metric for your worthiness as a Normal mode raider. I would say Silver minimum for Flex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamatayan View Post
    Thank you OP for your post.It reminded me of why i stopped raiding in tier 12 and stay clear of the corrupt totalitarian regime known as the "Raiding Guild".Who are you to tell people what content to run.Do you pay their subs?????I hope they all /gquit.
    It takes 30 minutes. If they can spend dozens of hours raiding they can fly to kun lai for 30 minutes. And yeah, if they don't like it they can quit.
    Last edited by bendak; 2013-09-15 at 02:45 PM.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael123 View Post
    I agree with this.

    Does getting gold mean that a certain player is a good raider? I think not. You could aswell require people to have 100 mounts or have 10000 achievement points. That's just as silly. If my guild leader required me to get gold, I'd consider leaving the guild even if it was easy to get gold.
    Getting gold is not equal to any of the other bullshit examples you came up with.
    Getting gold does not mean that you are a good raider; getting gold does mean that you can do your spec's main role to a decent level. This is even more important when it's a casual group that doesn't raid a lot.

  19. #339
    Honestly, as a raid leader you should be able to judge a person by their performance in a raid environment and not by proving grounds, where the results vary heavily on how gear dependant your spec is. Many DPS classes wouldn't even think of raiding with the spec they use to do PG. Besides, as it has been said before, Gold isn't the thing to look for, everyone and their mother can get past Endless wave 20 with next to no effort. If you want to play elitist, require wave 50 at least, but seriously, not even then can you judge the value the person offers for your raid by this measure. One would think serious raiders knew that.
    There are too many design flaws in your game. As a result, your customers' game experience may be degraded. Fire or replace the failing developers if you don't want to see this message again.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Blayze View Post
    Before Blizzard can do that and expect it to fly, they'll have to provide spec-specific modifications to Proving Grounds to ensure all specs can perform at the same level. And they'll have to make sure they haven't fucked with that balance every single patch.
    Noone is talking about endless 30 here, but about gold.

    Gold is doable with ANY class in the game.

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