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  1. #361
    Over 9000! Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadocaster View Post
    Honestly I straight up feel that people who use the "it's just a game, not a job" excuse are just covering for their own inability and lack of competitiveness. I get limited time to play games during the week because:
    1. Two small children at home.
    2. A wife.
    3. A 9-5 IT Job.

    I want my gaming time to be brutally efficient. Min-maxing is my enjoyment, and it comes naturally to me. I stopped playing WoW back in 5.1, but I play a lot of DOTA2 now and that mindset still translates. I was sick of the pubbers being bads during my 1-2 games a night I get to play of DOTA2, so I went and found some friends to play with from forums, same deal with recruiting players.

    Honestly every time someone someone tells me: 'lol chill dude, it's just a game', I imagine some teenaged stoner sent that message. People with serious jobs, families, and a life take things seriously, that is how they got to where they are in life, so of course they take gaming seriously too. Competitive drive, yo.
    I got limited time too...
    I work without a fixed schedule, being my own boss, but also that of a few other people. I sometimes work as little as 4 hours, more often up to 13 - 14 hours.
    I have grown up kids. I have other family obligations, I have a house with a half acre land to take care off, I have other activities than WoW in my spare time as well, and with all due respect, what's a priority for you in your spare time has ZERO value for the next person. Whether they are good or not isn't for you to judge.
    They are as good as they feel is sufficient for them. I've met people over the years, that would clearly be classified as horrible. But they've had the blast of their life with the game. Who are you, or anyone else to ruin their game with unqualified statements about self proclaimed quality standards?
    There is zero wrong with striving to be as good as it possibly gets at the game. But there's everything wrong with trying to enforce such on anyone else in the game.
    It is a game after all, and when the game was not as poisoned by that "I'm boss, you are noob" mentality, it was actually better and had a lot more paying members too..
    The amount of self entitlement and elitism has never been higher as it is right now.
    And I am fully convinced how this drives more people away from the game than it attracts them.
    Prove me, how every sane and common sense oriented person wants to make a game to be their second job, and put up with knee jerk behavior in the game, if they had to deal with it already all day long in their real life commitments.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    I got limited time too...
    I work without a fixed schedule, being my own boss, but also that of a few other people. I sometimes work as little as 4 hours, more often up to 13 - 14 hours.
    I have grown up kids. I have other family obligations, I have a house with a half acre land to take care off, I have other activities than WoW in my spare time as well, and with all due respect, what's a priority for you in your spare time has ZERO value for the next person. Whether they are good or not isn't for you to judge.
    They are as good as they feel is sufficient for them. I've met people over the years, that would clearly be classified as horrible. But they've had the blast of their life with the game. Who are you, or anyone else to ruin their game with unqualified statements about self proclaimed quality standards?
    There is zero wrong with striving to be as good as it possibly gets at the game. But there's everything wrong with trying to enforce such on anyone else in the game.
    It is a game after all, and when the game was not as poisoned by that "I'm boss, you are noob" mentality, it was actually better and had a lot more paying members too..
    The amount of self entitlement and elitism has never been higher as it is right now.
    And I am fully convinced how this drives more people away from the game than it attracts them.
    Prove me, how every sane and common sense oriented person wants to make a game to be their second job, and put up with knee jerk behavior in the game, if they had to deal with it already all day long in their real life commitments.
    Then we probably wouldn't find ourselves in the same gaming environment. Like I said, I actively avoid people online who do not share my mentality, because it is detriment to my enjoyment.

    Back on thread: I think we can both agree, that OP should probably take a look and see if he is in the right guild for him.
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  3. #363
    Brewmaster cyqu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexorcist View Post
    The whole concept of "requiring" Gold in Proving Grounds is along the same lines as "requiring" training for a job.
    Unfortunately, you should probably step back from the game and realise it isn't a job.
    And you should probably realise that while Proving Grounds is a wonderful training tool, some classes have it much harder than others, and so while it is doable for everybody, it's actually quite challenging for some classes... And as a result, if you were to require me, for example, to do it, I'd probably gquit as well.

    I'll put this into perspective for you: I'm a pretty good tank, and have been extended invites into pretty decent guilds, but I can't get past 10/10 Gold in Proving Grounds. Why? Because I'm a monk, and a crit-oriented monk at that. I'm good in a raid situation where I have my CDs at my disposal, and where I can control the situation, however after 10 back-to-back waves of enemies that actually do ridiculous amounts of damage to a leather tank, I simply don't have the CDs, and being crit-oriented, don't have the stamina. And yet in raid situations I rarely die, and if you ask my healers, it's not because they're spam healing me the entire time; monks are almost too spiky to take that final wave of enemies, given the healing DoT is 70k. I can self-heal til the cows come home but when the Conquerors enrage I die, every time.

    So, I'd probably be pretty offended if you were ranking my skill based on my PG progression.
    Can't blame your guildies for taking off, either.
    i hate to be the bearer of bad news here dude, but monks are excellent at pg, interrupts, stuns, a gap closers and a lot of kiting capabilities, as well as xuen who can off tank for you. gold is a joke for BrM.
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  4. #364
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    I cant see how it benefits you as a RL to have people do Proving Grounds.

    In my eyes: If you need an achievement system to evaluete your players and can't judge your raiders yourself, then you aren't really fit to be raidleading.

    Any good raidleader should be able to see who's not making an effort within the first hour of a raid.
    To me it just seems like you wanna force people to do something completely non-relevant to raid, and then put yourself higher than the ones who cant.

    When reading posts like these, Im glad i have a competent GM / RL. Because i think i would quickly loose interest in the guild if it was like this.

    This is all speaking for the PoV of a "Hardcore" raider, having killed Lei shen HC when it was current.
    Last edited by Fateys; 2013-09-15 at 03:47 PM. Reason: Spelling.

  5. #365
    I would insta leave your guild, if you think proving grounds is an accurate representation of how your raiders will preform during raids you are obviously clueless and I would not want you as my gm
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  6. #366
    Over 9000! Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyqu View Post
    they are both team oriented games, your team may require 1 meet up a week for fun with friends, some may require you to show up 7 days a week and do things on your own time to be prepared. it is your decision on which team you join and how well you want to do. but either way the leader of said team is dictating what you do, if you don't like it go to another team.
    Private teams do everything on super casual level. That's why they are private teams. Otherwise one could still play competitive on club level in senior teams. Those do exist.
    But as for competitive level. I have never ever seen any coach trying to enforce elements in practice sessions that apply to semi-professional or professional team level. That never happened, because it would have failed with epic proportions. Any coach of what ever team they have cater their training and practice sessions around the skill level of their team as a whole.

    with e sports becoming more and more popular, i wouldn't say that its directed at the first or second group. sports have been around for thousands of years. e sports has been around for like 20 years. you can play it off how ever you want. but some people play games for different reasons. you are not a competitive person maybe so you choose not to raid for progression, or you choose not to pvp for high ranks. some people play hockey to win trophies, some people play to get drunk with some friends after the game. its the exact same thing in wow.
    I can agree with that..
    And yet the problem at hand is, that there's a certain very vocal group of players around that think everyone needs to play on eSport level, when in fact the vast majority of the games subscribers are not anywhere close to that mindset. We discuss this already controversial here on this platform, where every single contributor is already above the average players interest and motivation. We all are to some degree more "hardcore" oriented than the majority. The majority doesn't even bother with online sources related to the game.. They log in, do their thing, and have fun with it. That's it.




    I'm just simply pointing out things people are just over looking because of how they view this game, and trying to add another perspective to this thread.
    Which is a good approach
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  7. #367
    I'd tell you that you are trying to require too much from people.

  8. #368
    Over 9000! Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadocaster View Post
    Then we probably wouldn't find ourselves in the same gaming environment. Like I said, I actively avoid people online who do not share my mentality, because it is detriment to my enjoyment.

    Back on thread: I think we can both agree, that OP should probably take a look and see if he is in the right guild for him.
    oh definitely we agree on that aspect.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  9. #369
    I think the sticking point here is the description of your guild as "casual". Strict requirements (you do this thing or you do not raid) are generally something you don't find in a casual guild. I suspect this is the real reason why people are leaving: not because it is too hard for them (likely they could get it with practice), but because they wanted a guild without such rules.

    The question for you: is it worth losing raiders over a test that is not an accurate simulation of raiding? And since you are raiding, why not base assessments on performances in the raid?

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Akkoron View Post
    its like requiring brawlers guild rank 10 before 5.4...
    Not a bad idea.... Thanks.
    EU first PG wave 30, come at me bros.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Cherrypowdah View Post
    If people play in your guild, in your raids, its your rules or gtfo.
    That attitude, combined with getting people to do stupid shit like proving grounds tends to result in guilds falling apart.

    Just by virtue of the nature of the damn things they're going to favour hybrids, and sucks to be a class that doesn't do well with gear scaling down. Honestly, deactivating the procs on the meta gems is just poor game design - it should either disable all metas, or treat your proc meta as though it were the meta your spec normally uses. The classes that scale down well won't care, but those that don't are getting robbed of more stats for no reason.

  12. #372
    Probably a good idea to get the guild to do them, but I would be a bit more lenient if some can't hit gold due to their class or whatever, or at least give them tips and find out what was wrong or if their class is just not built for it. If they are just mad that they had to do it, I wouldn't worry too much then. It's definitely a great tool for someone that needs a bit of help, can demonstrate what they are doing wrong and since it's so easy to repeat, they can learn stuff a lot easier.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Tankitbetter View Post
    I am hoping it will help make players better in some ways, sure. Rising to the challenge - which some are having to do - of doing Gold is making them research their class better, look up strategies, etc. It's getting them engaged in making them better players. That's awesome.

    Lackluster's post is full of slippery slope fallacies. It's not really logical to say that I'll be requiring certain ranks in the limited-entry brawler's guild or for a 1750 in arena. That's just silly.
    Yeah it IS silly to require that just like its silly to require gold in PG so good job on disagreeing with yourself.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by re1gn1te View Post
    LOL what yeah all them competitive gamers in a 1 day/ week guild... He's in a casual guild, maybe they take it semi seriously but they aren't competitive.
    Some of the players do not take it semi seriously. As far as I can understand, this is what the OP is trying to fix. He is giving them a challenge (a requirement for raid) where they are unable to blame it on other reasons.
    I don't see the problem with this.

    For the people saying that OP should find a guild that is better suited for him. Uhm.. isn't it his guild in the first place or have I misunderstood something?

    Yeah it IS silly to require that just like its silly to require gold in PG so good job on disagreeing with yourself.
    I do hope you're not serious. Time investment in PG is far lower than any of the other activities. It's a way for people to realize that they are playing badly themselves.
    Last edited by Karlzone; 2013-09-15 at 04:28 PM.

  15. #375
    Bloodsail Admiral sibut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZealousBlade View Post
    Gold is super easy to get
    Haven't been on to try it yet, but if gold is "super easy" then what's the point in making it mandatory? I mean if it's really that easy it's not going to prove much of anything.
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    You can add other stuff and still called it a grilled cheese, it's an american thing, but getting butt hurt over it means you have way too much free time and you should be using it to be making more grilled cheese.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    erm no healing monks can heal very well in PG up to silver only in compeltly different style that u gonna heal in raids - and by comletly i mean totaly completly different -_- they can also do silve mode dps chalenge as MW but that wasnt the point >< healing in raid is just so much different gold is just different matter -_-
    And this is part of my issue with Tank requiring gold for a flex run casual group.

    PG taught me absolutely nothing new on my resto shaman. When I got to gold, it took me 4 tries to finally get it, however, it required me to play in a way that I normally don't play resto in a raid-or even a 5 man- setting (meaning picking up glyph of healing wave, using TC plus a few other things that I normally don't do).

    Two things were OOMing me: 1) I'm dispel happy- always have been. If someone has a debuff, I automatically dispel it. 2) I was using GHW a lot more than I normally would in a 25m setting. Heck, even when I was still in 463's I wasn't using GHW that often.

    Glyph of healing wave is something I do not touch- ever. Even in 5 man healing, I don't take that glyph.

    I haven't even tried it on my MW yet.

    I just don't see PG's as a good way to measure your raiders- especially a once a week casual flex group. A better way to measure what your folks are capable of is maybe starting out in ToT normal or giving people a few weeks to get used to eachother or the fights in flex.
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  17. #377
    In my opinion its unreasonable. As others have said, some classes perform better than others at 463, and some will perform better at higher ilvl's as such in SoO. Its fine if you want to consider skill in this, but this isn't the way to go about it. Stick to the old ways, take them into the raid. If they suck, boot em, if they don't suck, keep them.

    For example. I did gold healing on my resto shaman easily, yet I'm having trouble doing it on my mistweaver, but my mistweaver has higher gear. Does that matter? No, 463 scaling. Just a prime example.

  18. #378
    No idea what op actually has progression wise, but from last tiers 8 out of 13 hc tank im having hard time getting to that last wave of gold. So unless you go for last tiers 13/13 hc in one night I really would be glad to get a bunch of silvers. Since at least for tank what actually happens in pg is just one tip of a coin imho. No raid has one hot on tank, no bonuses, no metas, walls that get in your way (maybe shaman do). but anyways, that last few waves are on par for me with some progression heroic fights.
    So just lower your standarts.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Akkoron View Post
    its like requiring brawlers guild rank 10 before 5.4...
    hello healers and tanks
    To be fair, I did that on my brewmaster tank before quitting without too much difficulty. Since Blizzard requires tanks and healers to have DPS specs if they ever want to do anything outside of an instance, I don't think it's too large a burden for people.... though I would never institute such a requirement myself.

  20. #380
    The tanks gold is a don't panic trial nice and fun

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