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  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by Tankitbetter View Post
    Gear doesn't matter. You're scaled down to ilvl 463. You can't out-gear it, therefor making it more skill based.
    It's not that gear matters and I don't think I said that directly. What I meant, and I didn't say it directly either, was that I was in 500+ gear that scaled to 463 so it's not like I was below the ilvl or anything.

    Some of it is skill and some of it isn't. As I mentioned in the tanking challenge. Even if I put up Sacred Shield, had Shield of Righteous Buff, Guardian going and Seal of Insight up I was taking some massive damage and had to pop LoH (not available to other tanks) and spam WoG later on. So in that case it's just that the NPC isn't doing enough healing or something causing some skewing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    Well, in a way, gear does matter, just not in the way of "the more geared you are, the easier it will be". As the LMG is disabled, Cloak is disabled, your ilvl / stats are scaled down terribly (Blizzard scaling system is by no means perfect), someone going in with these will be in a disadvantage vs people who bother to use an old helm with normal meta (or just using normal meta because they haven't gotten new gems), reforge and gem for the scaling system, etc.
    I just wanted to mention you quoted wrong it wasn't me who made that comment, Tankitbetter did in reference to my comment :P

  2. #442
    I think Gold might be a little excessive for a casual guild just starting to raid. But Silver is a perfectly fine requirement.

  3. #443
    He's absolutely right
    Quote Originally Posted by artem123 View Post
    Im not sure what logical reasoning you would 'require' people to get gold
    Seriously.
    it might be 50times easier on class A compared to B.
    And doesnt exactly prove how well a player does where you're comparing a 463 scaling to people that have been raiding past that for months, some even nearly a year.

    Edit: Also, you dont have gold. Which is where the issue starts to arise with different classes.
    And if you want to extra pretend PG means much for recruting, you might as well go for endless 30.
    Then you can stack class a raid of mages + locks

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    Some of it is skill and some of it isn't. As I mentioned in the tanking challenge. Even if I put up Sacred Shield, had Shield of Righteous Buff, Guardian going and Seal of Insight up I was taking some massive damage and had to pop LoH (not available to other tanks) and spam WoG later on. So in that case it's just that the NPC isn't doing enough healing or something causing some skewing.
    That's not even close to true. If having SotR + guardian with SoI requires you to LoH then gold is impossible for everyone else. Guess what? It's not.

    The only wave of gold that needs some kind of CD is the start of round 10

  5. #445
    Gold proving grounds I'd consider to be a pretty low barrier of entry, which given a one night a week raid team seems to be what you're looking for. People that know what they're doing should knock it out in under an hour easily (might even one-shot it all if they're particularly good). It strikes me as something most would do anyway out of a sense of "professional" pride, if nothing else.

    And honestly, it looks like you've already dodged a few bullets because of it. Anyone that would get to silver, then gquit rather than ask for help is probably not someone you want to raid with anyway.

  6. #446
    To be honest if I were a gm was to test my guild members I'd have them do wave 50+ endless before being able to join a raid. It would test their stamina, their ability to stay focused over a long period of time. It all depends what your goal is I'd say casual clear of normal - gold requirement, semi hard core hc guild - endless 30 and top 500 raiding guild endless 50+.

  7. #447
    Id laugh it off if they would require me to get it.
    I prove enough in raids
    Trylb / Galesin
    Winners never quit, Quitters never win
    Nobody Said It Was Easy

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    What ? It's pretty exactly what you do in dungeons or raids, difference is without a healer "carrying" you. I think it will be great for new tanks, teaches raid awareness, that positioning matters, how to use active mitigation, cooldown usage, all while still having to push decent dps. You get basic tanking knowledge in a relaxed environment. I applaud blizzard for it tbh.

    Did dps challenge as tank for the achievement and i had to plan offensive cooldown usuage, interupt, stuns etc.
    Can't say for healing as i despise it
    If you run around, trying to kite the boss, you're a pretty terrible raid tank. You can't root raid bosses and if you root trash mobs, they turn around and melee the closest player. Also proving ground teaches you how tank dps is completely irrelevant, as your npc does 4-5 times your dps.
    The tank one has the least to do with raiding.

  9. #449
    I don't know why everyone's getting so upset. It's good training for the new players in his guild. They can learn their roles in a stressless environment. The veteran's should have no problem with it either.

    I actually had a bit of trouble on Silver and Gold as a tank but I was blaming the NPC. I'd be low on hp and she just keeps on attacking the enemies.

    Nothing can hold me back!

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by Tankitbetter View Post
    Hah, is there any more information I could provide for you?
    First of all , awesome attitude OP. I read the whole 23 pages just to see your replies.

    What most people here that opposes this idea seems to forgot the fact that even being here on a fansite forum makes you alot more engaged with the game than the most of the player population. PG is not, and cannot teach you something you so innately know by know after 4-9 years; you cant even recognize the skills its trying to teach.

    In my current guild, which was causal 2 raids a week guild; we wiped on 4 weeks, 57 times on Lei Shen normal; barely getting the achivement before the patch. Do you know why we failed?
    Our Raid dps was very good. Tanking was no problem (and i was tanking it with my i483 lvl monk). Healing was no issue. We wiped 57 times because some of our players (2-3 of them) were unable to stand in bouncing bolts in transisions. They just lacked the sitiuational awareness, and basic wasd skills most of you here take for granted.

    PG teaches the average player how to stay aware during a stressful situation, how to prioritize dps targets; and how to recognize (the most important part) potential threats and counter them accordingly.)

    The Idea is awesome. I allways loathed ilvl requirement or achivement requests in the past; but Pg is different;

    And as like all Ideas; execution of this idea is what matters most, judging from OPs attitude she did approach it the right way. After all personality skills is one of the most required of a decent raid leader.

    PS: OP i kinna wish i was able to join your guild, it seems like a good home for wow.

  11. #451
    Brewmaster Raxxed's Avatar
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    This is possibly one of the stupidest things I've ever read.
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Blizzard offered cardboard cut outs with poster pictures of bosses stapled on them upside down and sideways and many players now feel that is raiding.

  12. #452
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    I like the idea.
    A lot of the people qq'ing here are saying PG doesn't prove anything.
    It still is a nice initial check. If you can't even bother to show you're not just someone who wants to get a free boost, why would the OP take you in his raid?

    Gogo PG as a req for pugs now!
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  13. #453
    Brewmaster Raxxed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Téuntjûh View Post
    I like the idea.
    A lot of the people qq'ing here are saying PG doesn't prove anything.
    It still is a nice initial check. If you can't even bother to show you're not just someone who wants to get a free boost, why would the OP take you in his raid?

    Gogo PG as a req for pugs now!
    A free boost into a guild (that judging by the fact OP has 0 heroic kills last tier) will wipe on normals for the next 12 months? Are you kidding?
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Blizzard offered cardboard cut outs with poster pictures of bosses stapled on them upside down and sideways and many players now feel that is raiding.

  14. #454
    High Overlord Fyersing's Avatar
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    I asked this exact thing of my 10-man group, as well, and everyone has reached not only gold but between 14-21 Endless for their role -- with one exception, the guy who wasn't hit or expertise capped.

    Is Proving Grounds an infallible tool to judge ability or readiness? No.
    Is Proving Grounds an infinitely more useful gauge than itemlevel or linked achievements? Absolutely.

  15. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raxxed View Post
    A free boost into a guild (that judging by the fact OP has 0 heroic kills last tier) will wipe on normals for the next 12 months? Are you kidding?
    80% of all those people out there are not Heroic raiders.
    For them clearing some bosses on normal is the same as downing LeiShenhc for you
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  16. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Téuntjûh View Post
    80% of all those people out there are not Heroic raiders.
    For them clearing some bosses on normal is the same as downing LeiShenhc for you
    I'm fine with people raiding normals, but having idiotic requirements to join those guilds baffles me.
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Blizzard offered cardboard cut outs with poster pictures of bosses stapled on them upside down and sideways and many players now feel that is raiding.

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by Raxxed View Post
    This is possibly one of the stupidest things I've ever read.
    Awesome. Care to explain why?

    Personally, I don't see it is as that bad. You haven't really raided with these guys before, so it'd be nice to see how they preform. I don't think it should be the only thing you take into consideration, but I definitely see it as a tool to predict performance.

  18. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by lopk View Post
    Awesome. Care to explain why?

    Personally, I don't see it is as that bad. You haven't really raided with these guys before, so it'd be nice to see how they preform. I don't think it should be the only thing you take into consideration, but I definitely see it as a tool to predict performance.
    Golds don't mean shit, not to mention that the playerbase that would be wanting to join a normal mode guild would generally not have extra time to spend on something so pointless as opposed to gearing up on timeless isle or flex.
    Putting time into upgrading your character instead of seemingly pointless achievements is a far better way to progress...
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Blizzard offered cardboard cut outs with poster pictures of bosses stapled on them upside down and sideways and many players now feel that is raiding.

  19. #459
    *shrug* I think it's a great idea that you're requiring gold for proving grounds, but as you stated, you are a casual guild so I'm not surprised at the complaints. Casual guilds tend to get a lot of players who aren't willing to put the work into raiding/gearing/preparing for fights and therefore I am not surprised at the backlash...they probably thought that they should just be able to show up to raid however/whenever, no gear optimization no reading up on fights, anything. I bet they were completely shocked at your suggestion Whether or not they have a right to feel that way is another issue entirely, although I can completely understand why you'd like some sort of "check" beforehand in order to do some initial weeding out of players who should not be raiding.

    As mentioned, proving grounds may not necessarily be the role check you'd like it to be, but really gold should be feasible for most players, in my opinion.

    If players aren't interested in proving grounds, you could also ask them to screenshot their recount for dmg/healing done for an LFR encounter like Lei Shen, along with damage taken, etc, or logs from LFR (or ideally normal mode/hardmode encounters from T14 or T15). That way you're at least giving them another way to prove to you that they know what they are doing. Also, a simple armory check helps to weed out those who haven't even bothered to gear correctly.

    Good luck in 5.4, OP

  20. #460
    Pandaren Monk Adoxe's Avatar
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    This thread reminds me why I stopped raiding for a while, so many people thinking they can just tell people what to do with their time, well let me tell you something, you're their leader in a virtual game, a game that they are paying every month with their own money, if they want to do Proving Grounds then they will but don't try and force people just because you're 2 ranks above them. My "casual" Guild Master suggested this exact same thing yesterday, every single person objected to it and I personally stood up to him, after years of playing together, because of it. Don't get me wrong, I think Proving Grounds are a nice feature and yes I do have the gold medal but I do not think it helps in the long run at all. It's 463 ilvl SOLO content, designed for testing and training purposes, it was not made to be a raiding requirement. Besides, you cannot compare solo content to actual raid content whatsoever, 99% of the things in Proving Grounds don't ever happen in actual raid fights, it's like comparing Mionee's solo boss kills to tanking real bosses.
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