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  1. #461
    High Overlord Fyersing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raxxed View Post
    Putting time into upgrading your character instead of seemingly pointless achievements is a far better way to progress...
    The purpose of Proving Grounds it to become better at executing the mechanical aspects of your class/role, not progression. By partaking in the former, you increase your odds of excelling in the later.

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by NonameXADX View Post
    . It's 463 ilvl SOLO content, designed for testing and training purposes, it was not made to be a raiding requirement. Besides, you cannot compare solo content to actual raid content whatsoever, 99% of the things in Proving Grounds don't ever happen in actual raid fights, it's like comparing Mionee's solo boss kills to tanking real bosses.
    Except that her soloing probaly improves her tanking too
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  3. #463
    High Overlord Fyersing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NonameXADX View Post
    It's 463 ilvl SOLO content, designed for testing and training purposes, it was not made to be a raiding requirement.
    There is literally a blue post that suggests it should be the metric which replaces achievement linking or GearScore/itemlevel. EDIT: Think it was Twitter, actually. So... you're wrong.

  4. #464
    Brewmaster Raxxed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    The purpose of Proving Grounds it to become better at executing the mechanical aspects of your class/role, not progression. By partaking in the former, you increase your odds of excelling in the later.
    You learn to turn around and dps a monkey - that's pretty worthwhile
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Blizzard offered cardboard cut outs with poster pictures of bosses stapled on them upside down and sideways and many players now feel that is raiding.

  5. #465
    I would never in a million years do proving grounds just to get a raid spot in a casual normal guild (It teaches you nothing concerning raiding). That's just ridiculous. I'm in a semi hardcore guild that raids 4 times a week (currently 10/14) and if they'd told me to get gold or no raids I'd tell them to shove it. I have no interest in even setting foot in training grounds. I got gold in all challenge modes, and I've been healing since Molten Core in vanilla. I've proven myself enough and I prove myself every raid.

    OP, your demands are retarded for such a casual guild, and I'm glad you already lost raiders over it.

  6. #466
    High Overlord Fyersing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raxxed View Post
    You learn to turn around and dps a monkey - that's pretty worthwhile
    If it's so chalked full of absolutely fundamental concepts, and entirely useless, then everyone should have no problem getting gold and your concerns are unfounded.

    Also.

    "We’ve even talked about maybe there’s a way that Proving Grounds can replace item level as the gating mechanism to get you into say raid finder or similar match making content." --Greg Street

    Source: http://twizzcast.com/shows/2013/8/13/ghostcrawler

  7. #467
    Fluffy Kitten Annoying's Avatar
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    Considering that there's a few specs who gear/reforge/gem around *not* being scaled down... no.

    Example: Disc - Geared around legendary meta and quite low spirit. Legendary meta doesn't proc in PG, so you definitely have to swap it out and reforge/regem everything you have. I wouldn't spend that kind of gold for silly solo content. Also consider that certain classes have ways of dealing with mobs that others don't. Disc doesn't have an interrupt. All we have is AoE fear and psyfiend. That's it. Somewhere around 20 priests in the whole world have the 30wave healing achieve. That's for all healing priests, not just disc.

    Edit: All priests on healing.
    Last edited by Annoying; 2013-09-16 at 09:11 AM.
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  8. #468
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    I play aff warlock / demo for progression and last tier we got 13/13h a month before 5.4. I'm not a big fan of challenge mode or proving grounds, i still managed to get gold after an hour of try.

    The main reason is because i don't feel like i'm playing my own character, haste caps are messed up, spells take forever to cast dots lose ticks, i had to use spells like fear and talents for burst i'm not using for progression, plus i didn't want to reforge / regem completely for 463 itemization.

    Some specs don't have that kind of problem, i saw many destro warlocks claiming it was easy and our assassination rogue did it easily. I think proving grounds can be used as this : "look, i got bad stuff, no progress, but i managed to get to endless, so i'm kinda good at this game", but it doesn't replace experience and coordination with your group nor big raid boss optimization.

  9. #469
    some classes/speccs are pretty screwed on PGs due to the 463 scaling. I experienced that myself with my current main specc (fire) for I could not dps all three sha down fast enough despite being generally a top DD in our raid.

    Fire mages were nerfed twice due to immensely good scaling. They were pretty much balanced in 5.0 with Mogu/HoF/terrace loot. They were also okay in blue-ish gear. However, because of the good scaling, our crit rating was nerfed heavily and our combustion, the only "real" dps-burst-cd was put to the ground. And this is a HUGE problem when it comes to the sha...

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Lylandra View Post
    some classes/speccs are pretty screwed on PGs due to the 463 scaling. I experienced that myself with my current main specc (fire) for I could not dps all three sha down fast enough despite being generally a top DD in our raid.

    Fire mages were nerfed twice due to immensely good scaling. They were pretty much balanced in 5.0 with Mogu/HoF/terrace loot. They were also okay in blue-ish gear. However, because of the good scaling, our crit rating was nerfed heavily and our combustion, the only "real" dps-burst-cd was put to the ground. And this is a HUGE problem when it comes to the sha...
    Not really.

    Skill > Gear.

    Did gold on patchday on second try as fire mage.

    @OP
    I am glad that I am not in your guild.

  11. #471
    I got rank 10 brawlers guild because I'm a overgeared fire mage, does that make me a good raider?

    I got wave 30 endless because I could respect frost and regem my meta/gems to zerg mobs down in seconds, does that make me a good raider?

    I did the same as my hunter because of the easy toolkit they have for proving grounds, does that make me a good raider?

    Answer to all above, no. it dosn't. Anyone thinking wv30 is anything shy of easy unless you're playing a gimp class is fooling themselves and is no substitution for skill.

  12. #472
    Mechagnome Jassinta's Avatar
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    I understand your idea in the first place, but I honestly don't think it should be a requirement. It's easier for some classes and harder for others, and just because you can move out of some crap in Proving Grounds as a dps doesn't necessarily mean you can navigate your way around a proper raid encounter. I just think raiding and PG are so very different and while it does prove that your group can get out of the fire, there's not really much else it proves.

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  13. #473
    The Lightbringer Puffler's Avatar
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    Nope i'm too lazy, if the raid leader(s) can't see who is bad during the raid then they are bad raid leaders.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by NonameXADX View Post
    This thread reminds me why I stopped raiding for a while, so many people thinking they can just tell people what to do with their time, well let me tell you something, you're their leader in a virtual game, a game that they are paying every month with their own money, if they want to do Proving Grounds then they will but don't try and force people just because you're 2 ranks above them. My "casual" Guild Master suggested this exact same thing yesterday, every single person objected to it and I personally stood up to him, after years of playing together, because of it. Don't get me wrong, I think Proving Grounds are a nice feature and yes I do have the gold medal but I do not think it helps in the long run at all. It's 463 ilvl SOLO content, designed for testing and training purposes, it was not made to be a raiding requirement. Besides, you cannot compare solo content to actual raid content whatsoever, 99% of the things in Proving Grounds don't ever happen in actual raid fights, it's like comparing Mionee's solo boss kills to tanking real bosses.
    Well Mione did 78 waves on endless and overall a great tank I think?
    And there is requirements all over the world so I don't see the problem.
    You want to get into a job? It has requirements like experience, degree etc etc.
    You want a decent raiding group to take you seriously and have the slightest impression before taking you in and wasting a spot for you instead of someone else that is good? Do that simple requirement, not a big deal.
    As much as people say it's pointless, I have seen myself a group in openraid HC ToT (Nerfed but still) , only requirement was gold proving grounds and bam not too bad 10/13 HC for a pug.
    It does at least a bit show minimal awareness, if you fail on bananas too much you get -75% hit chance and you won't kill stuff in time. If you get stunned too much in that amber, you won't kill stuff in time. Teaches the minimal stuff of moving at least a bit more from shit or kiting shit or switching priorities to that Banshee for example.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Tankitbetter View Post
    Run purgatory and remorseless winter. Stun the big guys during enrage or use army of the dead to tank them for a bit. I 1-shot it on gold, never knowing before what was going to happen.
    Yeh I was thinking for gold to get winter and get my undead minions to use taunt (un glyph it) as when I did a few tries first night it was out I wiped on last wave with those small changes its easily done.

    I think this is a good idea in that you can get an idea of where some people are. If people dont like it they can quit or not apply.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Inthislzon View Post
    That's not even close to true. If having SotR + guardian with SoI requires you to LoH then gold is impossible for everyone else. Guess what? It's not.

    The only wave of gold that needs some kind of CD is the start of round 10
    As a DK, I used Bone shield on CD and used VE when I was taking bursts of damage to help my death strike shield. Other than that, I didn't use ICB until round 10 myself. Remorseless winter was nice for stunning a ton of adds though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nighelf View Post
    First of all , awesome attitude OP. I read the whole 23 pages just to see your replies.

    What most people here that opposes this idea seems to forgot the fact that even being here on a fansite forum makes you alot more engaged with the game than the most of the player population. PG is not, and cannot teach you something you so innately know by know after 4-9 years; you cant even recognize the skills its trying to teach.

    In my current guild, which was causal 2 raids a week guild; we wiped on 4 weeks, 57 times on Lei Shen normal; barely getting the achivement before the patch. Do you know why we failed?
    Our Raid dps was very good. Tanking was no problem (and i was tanking it with my i483 lvl monk). Healing was no issue. We wiped 57 times because some of our players (2-3 of them) were unable to stand in bouncing bolts in transisions. They just lacked the sitiuational awareness, and basic wasd skills most of you here take for granted.

    PG teaches the average player how to stay aware during a stressful situation, how to prioritize dps targets; and how to recognize (the most important part) potential threats and counter them accordingly.)

    The Idea is awesome. I allways loathed ilvl requirement or achivement requests in the past; but Pg is different;

    And as like all Ideas; execution of this idea is what matters most, judging from OPs attitude she did approach it the right way. After all personality skills is one of the most required of a decent raid leader.

    PS: OP i kinna wish i was able to join your guild, it seems like a good home for wow.
    Hey! I appreciate the kind comments. Unfortunately we wouldn't be a good guild for you if you were able to clear Lei Shen normal :P Our goal is flex and flex only. If, after clearing flex, we have some people who want to try normal, I'm willing to step up to raid lead that, but that's a bit aways.

    It's baby steps. I'm dealing mostly with people who have been doing LFR for a year and a half. Many of them told me "Wow, this is the first time I've ever stepped in a real raid, and it was fun!" It's a good feeling, to be honest.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raxxed View Post
    A free boost into a guild (that judging by the fact OP has 0 heroic kills last tier) will wipe on normals for the next 12 months? Are you kidding?
    It's amusing that you assume that just because someone quit for 8 months, they're terrible.

  17. #477
    The Lightbringer Simulacrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annoying View Post
    Considering that there's a few specs who gear/reforge/gem around *not* being scaled down... no.

    Example: Disc - Geared around legendary meta and quite low spirit. Legendary meta doesn't proc in PG, so you definitely have to swap it out and reforge/regem everything you have. I wouldn't spend that kind of gold for silly solo content. Also consider that certain classes have ways of dealing with mobs that others don't. Disc doesn't have an interrupt. All we have is AoE fear and psyfiend. That's it. Somewhere around 20 priests in the whole world have the 30wave healing achieve. That's for all healing priests, not just disc.

    Edit: All priests on healing.
    No you wouldn't. These are all lies. Maybe for endless 30+ you need to change your gear up some, but I went in with my normal raid gear (well, took my darkmoon trinket out of the bank), non-functioning meta, low-ass spirit, etc. and made wave 24 on my disc priest after a couple of attempts. Pretty sure I can make 30 without making changes to my gear, though I'll probably find a head with a proper meta in it before I go back (takes fucking forever to get to the later waves - the biggest problem PGs have imo.).

    If you ask me, the main reason there are so few high-ranked healers is that people haven't gotten around to trying yet, don't want to dedicate a lot of time (half an hour+ to get to wave 30) to something that rewards you with nothing, or aren't interested. Not because it's extremely hard, or at least it shouldn't be for anyone who plays the game as much as a raider does.
    Last edited by Simulacrum; 2013-09-16 at 01:26 PM.

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by NonameXADX View Post
    This thread reminds me why I stopped raiding for a while, so many people thinking they can just tell people what to do with their time, well let me tell you something, you're their leader in a virtual game, a game that they are paying every month with their own money, if they want to do Proving Grounds then they will but don't try and force people just because you're 2 ranks above them. My "casual" Guild Master suggested this exact same thing yesterday, every single person objected to it and I personally stood up to him, after years of playing together, because of it. Don't get me wrong, I think Proving Grounds are a nice feature and yes I do have the gold medal but I do not think it helps in the long run at all. It's 463 ilvl SOLO content, designed for testing and training purposes, it was not made to be a raiding requirement. Besides, you cannot compare solo content to actual raid content whatsoever, 99% of the things in Proving Grounds don't ever happen in actual raid fights, it's like comparing Mionee's solo boss kills to tanking real bosses.
    This type of response hasn't happened in my guild. I find it shocking that someone would say "you can't tell me what to do!" when, unfortunately, if you're going to raid with me, yes I can. You say you pay for your monthly fee - so do I, and every other raider. When you wish to join our raid, we have the right to ask that you do something to prove your competence, and if you don't want to, we have the right to say you can't come.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raxxed View Post
    You learn to turn around and dps a monkey - that's pretty worthwhile
    Replace that monkey with.....slimes, corrupted misery, ranged and melee adds on narushen, adds on sha, etc.

    It is pretty worthwhile.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoying View Post
    Considering that there's a few specs who gear/reforge/gem around *not* being scaled down... no.

    Example: Disc - Geared around legendary meta and quite low spirit. Legendary meta doesn't proc in PG, so you definitely have to swap it out and reforge/regem everything you have. I wouldn't spend that kind of gold for silly solo content. Also consider that certain classes have ways of dealing with mobs that others don't. Disc doesn't have an interrupt. All we have is AoE fear and psyfiend. That's it. Somewhere around 20 priests in the whole world have the 30wave healing achieve. That's for all healing priests, not just disc.

    Edit: All priests on healing.
    I'm not asking for 30 wave. I'm asking for Gold. That being said, earlier in this thread I said I'd meet that problem when it comes. So far, I haven't run in to any player who has said "I cannot do it." The few people who haven't done it have usually said "I know what I'm doing wrong - I'm going to try x to fix it next time!" "Okay, finally got past the double healer wave - I repentance'd the 2nd healer and it worked great! I didn't realize the big sha required burst though, so I'm going to use my avenging wrath on him this time and I'll save my BOAK for the 10th wave where you told me another Sha was."

    It's been great for our guild.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ThunderTaco View Post
    I play aff warlock / demo for progression and last tier we got 13/13h a month before 5.4. I'm not a big fan of challenge mode or proving grounds, i still managed to get gold after an hour of try.

    The main reason is because i don't feel like i'm playing my own character, haste caps are messed up, spells take forever to cast dots lose ticks, i had to use spells like fear and talents for burst i'm not using for progression, plus i didn't want to reforge / regem completely for 463 itemization.

    Some specs don't have that kind of problem, i saw many destro warlocks claiming it was easy and our assassination rogue did it easily. I think proving grounds can be used as this : "look, i got bad stuff, no progress, but i managed to get to endless, so i'm kinda good at this game", but it doesn't replace experience and coordination with your group nor big raid boss optimization.
    Warlocks, in the past, have been asked to use fear, banish, etc. during raids. Just because they aren't used currently doesn't mean they never will be used again.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Maeryn View Post
    I got rank 10 brawlers guild because I'm a overgeared fire mage, does that make me a good raider?

    I got wave 30 endless because I could respect frost and regem my meta/gems to zerg mobs down in seconds, does that make me a good raider?

    I did the same as my hunter because of the easy toolkit they have for proving grounds, does that make me a good raider?

    Answer to all above, no. it dosn't. Anyone thinking wv30 is anything shy of easy unless you're playing a gimp class is fooling themselves and is no substitution for skill.
    No, but it makes you a good individual player. It shows you have the ability to adjust to various challenges and the ability to overcome them. It shows you know how to burst at the right times, CC at the right times, know who to DPS and when, etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Yeh I was thinking for gold to get winter and get my undead minions to use taunt (un glyph it) as when I did a few tries first night it was out I wiped on last wave with those small changes its easily done.

    I think this is a good idea in that you can get an idea of where some people are. If people dont like it they can quit or not apply.
    I didn't even think of unglyphing army! Damn! That would've made it so much easier!

  19. #479
    Herald of the Titans Adoxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    There is literally a blue post that suggests it should be the metric which replaces achievement linking or GearScore/itemlevel. EDIT: Think it was Twitter, actually. So... you're wrong.
    Except the score is only on endless mode and we're talking only about Gold here, and I really don't think someone is gonna stay in a guild who has a certain score requirement, doubt majority of people will get past wave 10 on endless.

  20. #480
    The Lightbringer Simulacrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NonameXADX View Post
    Except the score is only on endless mode and we're talking only about Gold here, and I really don't think someone is gonna stay in a guild who has a certain score requirement, doubt majority of people will get past wave 10 on endless.
    Majority of people aren't raiding. Doesn't say much.

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