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  1. #481
    High Overlord KennyBoi3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    168
    It's the guild's first experience. You will fail many times before you succeed. If you expected to get a full clear on your first try with 20+ strangers, be realistic. Especially if you are a casual raid guild that raids once a week. I've been in a couple of those and did that once myself. Guess what happened? Same thing. Don't be afraid to fail to the point where you need to create standards for entry.

  2. #482
    Seems it would be better to get prospective raiders together and complete challenge dungeons or even lower teir raids/flex raid. There is more variety to what may happen and they will need to work with a group. There is little or no need to have chemistry with a group of others in proving grounds but getting some together in dungeons/raid will better gauge their response when working with others.

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by KennyBoi3 View Post
    It's the guild's first experience. You will fail many times before you succeed. If you expected to get a full clear on your first try with 20+ strangers, be realistic. Especially if you are a casual raid guild that raids once a week. I've been in a couple of those and did that once myself. Guess what happened? Same thing. Don't be afraid to fail to the point where you need to create standards for entry.
    Oh no, I didn't expect that. I did expect for us to not wipe as many times on Narushen because of people dying downstairs, though.

  4. #484
    The first time anyone in a guild "required" me to do anything I deemed unnecessary, I'd be gone before they could even complain I wasn't listening.

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    The first time anyone in a guild "required" me to do anything I deemed unnecessary, I'd be gone before they could even complain I wasn't listening.
    So you deem it unnecessary?

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Tankitbetter View Post
    The few people who haven't done it have usually said "I know what I'm doing wrong - I'm going to try x to fix it next time!" "Okay, finally got past the double healer wave - I repentance'd the 2nd healer and it worked great! I didn't realize the big sha required burst though, so I'm going to use my avenging wrath on him this time and I'll save my BOAK for the 10th wave where you told me another Sha was."

    It's been great for our guild.
    That's why I think your idea is great in your situation. And it is going to improve your raid a lot simply by the fact that several people realized that proper analysis of their mistakes will lead to improvement. That's a very useful thing to learn before start raiding.

    I would probably raise an eyebrow if my guild suddenly requests something like that, because we already are a raidgroup with members who should trust each other. But if your forming a new raid group at entry level (like stated in the first post) its better way than any "post a ui screenshot", "what's your ilvl", "post a lfr log" criteria.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Cov View Post
    I would probably raise an eyebrow if my guild suddenly requests something like that, because we already are a raidgroup with members who should trust each other.
    even in a 10man, there's 90 different opinions of 'who's pulling their weight'. additional standards that need to be met can help defray some of the resentment that grows when people feel that they are working harder at their class then others are. it can also provide the raid & guildleader with a "neutral arbiter" to speak for them.

    i remember reading an anecdote about when damage meters were first introduced. there were 3 mages in the raid, two of them constantly belittling another one because he wasnt 'as good as they were'. once damage meters were used to track the raid, it became clear that the situation was the opposite, and they quickly shut their mouths.

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by Halicia View Post
    even in a 10man, there's 90 different opinions of 'who's pulling their weight'. additional standards that need to be met can help defray some of the resentment that grows when people feel that they are working harder at their class then others are. it can also provide the raid & guildleader with a "neutral arbiter" to speak for them.

    i remember reading an anecdote about when damage meters were first introduced. there were 3 mages in the raid, two of them constantly belittling another one because he wasnt 'as good as they were'. once damage meters were used to track the raid, it became clear that the situation was the opposite, and they quickly shut their mouths.
    I would have loved to been there for that.

    So far, the experiment has worked for my guild. Wondering if other guilds have done similar things.

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodydemize View Post
    i've done gold tank and dps as a dk tank (yes im a noob and did the dps one in tank gear because i have no dps gear ;_ but it's really easy, if people complain about doing an easy solo scenario that takes 10 minutes (literally) to get in a raiding guild, then just let them leave, they are A) not willing to put in work B) not listening to their guild or raid leader (whichever you are ) and C) if they honestly can't do gold .. they really shouldn't be raiding.. especially if you are looking for decent progression
    Id rather take a healer that prepares for raiding than a healer that optimize gear FOR PROVING GROUNDS and spend a day actually working on it(time that should probably be spent capping valor or doing timeless)

    ....I guess that's just me
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Just because Mannoroth and Archimonde are involved doesn't mean it's Legion. They could just be on vacation, demolishing Draenor to build their new summer home.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dundebuns View Post
    Did you know that salt has sodium and chlorine in it!!!! Sodium explodes when exposed to atmosphere and you clean your toilets with chlorine!!

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Tankitbetter View Post
    So you deem it unnecessary?
    Of course. I could almost understand wanting new players with no experience to do it, but not people who have been playing forever.

  11. #491
    This seems like a great idea, back when Brawlers guild came out. I felt that even that could be used as a great tool to judge new raiders, taking somebody who has beaten brawlers guild and gotten gold on proving grounds would make a much better recruit than somebody who didn't or can't.

  12. #492
    High Overlord
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Leeds, England.
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    112
    Not even doing Proving Grounds, yet i'm raiding.

  13. #493
    I think proving grounds is valuable to train and demonstrating understanding of SOME raiding concepts, but I don't think it is really important. The most important skill that 90% of the group can have is being able to follow instructions, and proving grounds does not teach that.

  14. #494
    In B4 the bleeding hearts at Blizz say "O Noes! Guilds using PG not for what is is intended for??? We better nerf it asap so people aren't sat for raids!"

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by Inthislzon View Post
    That's not even close to true. If having SotR + guardian with SoI requires you to LoH then gold is impossible for everyone else. Guess what? It's not.

    The only wave of gold that needs some kind of CD is the start of round 10
    This is why I said the challenges don't prove anything for raiding. As some of them are skewed. Having to blow that many cooldowns in the tank one I don't think is intended since not all tank classes have as many tools. That's why I said things like the NPC not healing and dps more could cause issues for some, etc.

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    This is why I said the challenges don't prove anything for raiding. As some of them are skewed. Having to blow that many cooldowns in the tank one I don't think is intended since not all tank classes have as many tools. That's why I said things like the NPC not healing and dps more could cause issues for some, etc.
    You're missing the point. Every tank class can do it. We've done it.

    It means you're making a mistake if you have to use those cooldowns at that time or that for your class that is the most dangerous part.

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    What he meant was probably that you were doing something else wrong, since other classes do not have that many cds yet survive just fine.
    Quite possibly the case. The only thing that were up at the time was melee mobs. There was no fire caster, wind caster or anything that would've taken a lot of damage. Just the stacking bleed dot they do. Though as I mentioned before I only gave gold one attempt to see what it was like and could just be a case of really bad RNG. I'll have to toy around with it later this week. Would do it tonight, but I have a paper to write and I want to beat the Celestial Tournament before it resets.

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    When it comes to the stacking dot, you're supposed to use an aoe CC ability (blinding light comes to mind for a paladin I guess) and cc/kite for a bit in order to reset the stacks.
    I didn't attempt it on live at all, but that's what I did on my PTR attempt and it went just smooth.
    Yea, I think I tried that but it was on CD from an earlier pack. Either way I'll attempt it later this week and try a few other things. I mainly did it once to get an idea of it. In the end though I think it's just silly to ask people to do gold to raid. Bronze/Silver I can see. Gold would just frustrate *most* people and make them want to leave the guild and find another guild that doesn't require it or just not raid altogether.

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    Gold would just frustrate *most* people and make them want to leave the guild and find another guild that doesn't require it or just not raid altogether.
    This is not supported by the fact that 17 out of 20 people of my original raiders are okay with it. This is a small sample - but it's the only sample we have.

  20. #500
    Not to mention that as a paladin you can both bubble and bop the stacking bleed.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

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