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  1. #141
    Being forced into PG? thats shit.
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  2. #142
    Scarab Lord Valarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    I'm... I'm not disagreeing with any of that. At all. No where did I say, or even imply, that casuals were lazy.
    I didn't say you explicitly did. It's the implication when people say things like "well they're casual so..." - you even did that yourself:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    Casual also means, for a lot of casual raiders, that they won't be held to the same standards that might exist for more serious raids
    I'm saying that everyone absolutely can be held to a minimum standard of: do enough DPS to kill the boss, don't die, know the encounter, know your class. Proving Ground gold is actually a pretty good tool for casual guilds to use to measure the competence of their individual players if they're looking to solve an issue like stuck progress. It is a good indicator of:

    Can that person follow a kill/heal/tank priority?
    Can they not stand in crap?
    Can they pay attention to other factors (so, the healer NPC or the dps+tank NPCs)
    Do they know the ins and outs of their class?

    Those are the fundamentals of raiding. If you can't do that, and get pissed off when someone asks you to do it, then don't *expect* that they take you into their raids. As I already stated, if you are truly competent you can finish PG in 30minutes(ish). That is not some colossal time commitment, and most casual players probably spend many times that in a week sitting in their city of choice chatting or tabbed out watching youtube videos.

    (As an aside, although I use "you", I don't mean *you*. Nor was I replying to you with my first post. I just see many defensive people using lines like "I'm casual so I shouldn't have to..." and "I don't have time for..." (while having time to afk for 2 hours a day). I think that attitude that casuals are somehow allowed to be bad is what is so damaging in a game like this. Instead of encouraging or forcing people to get better, we simply say "well it's ok because you're casual so don't worry about learning a proper rotation or gemming your gear - who even has time for that pfft!")
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  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Lackluster View Post
    I'd tell you to get lost, if my raid performance is lacking then tell me what's wrong instead of telling me to go out and play minigames. What's next, you're going to require your raiders to get a certain rank in the brawlers guild? Perhaps getting 1750 in arenas will improve their reaction times and knowledge of other classes? Raid performance should be assessed based on just that, performance in the raid, and not some random other metric.

    If you feel that people are making elementary mistakes I would suggest you log a few raids (if you don't have proof they'll just deny it) and point out what's going wrong with links to the relevant logs. I think that telling someone what skill they are using improperly or exactly what fire they were standing in will be more beneficial to their performance in that fight than requiring them to do well in other parts of the game.
    At first I'd be like "hmmm whatever, sure I'll do it" but this post makes a lot of sense. If people are doing stuff wrong isn't it a lot easier to point it out exactly as raid leader? Does indeed sound to me you're hoping PG will take over a part of your raid leading.

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  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    While doing well in proving grounds doesn't exactly translate into doing well in raids, if you genuinely can't manage to achieve gold on your main spec within 2-3 attempts, then you lack even a basic grasp of the fundamentals of your class, or the hand-eye coordination to do well in any in-game setting (including raids) that punishes you for failing. That may not be a big deal for most people who play WoW, and I can't really blame them, but those are the guys LFR is for.

    I would seriously question the competency of anyone who wouldn't manage to achieve gold on their main spec. Endless 30+ is a different matter, and can be extremely difficult for some classes (though not for any of the healer specs in my experience), but gold?
    Healing PG is just goofy, and as people have mentioned, what you do in healing PG has very little to do with what you would do in raiding at any level.

    I think PG is interesting but I don't think it's all that interesting to have to come up with an entirely different UI and healing strategy to do it. Rather than "interesting" it seems more like "pointless."

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Derpette View Post
    At first I'd be like "hmmm whatever, sure I'll do it" but this post makes a lot of sense. If people are doing stuff wrong isn't it a lot easier to point it out exactly as raid leader? Does indeed sound to me you're hoping PG will take over a part of your raid leading.
    I am hoping it will help make players better in some ways, sure. Rising to the challenge - which some are having to do - of doing Gold is making them research their class better, look up strategies, etc. It's getting them engaged in making them better players. That's awesome.

    Lackluster's post is full of slippery slope fallacies. It's not really logical to say that I'll be requiring certain ranks in the limited-entry brawler's guild or for a 1750 in arena. That's just silly.

  6. #146
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    I didn't say you explicitly did. It's the implication when people say things like "well they're casual so..." - you even did that yourself:
    My statement was referring to hardcore min/maxing, shit like respecing for each fight, always playing the top DPS spec even if you personally hate it, race changes to top racials, etc, etc - things that are wholly unnecessary in casual raiding.

    Nothing you are saying about what is expected of casuals do I disagree with, nor your assessment of them.
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  7. #147
    And again, OP, you don't seem affected by any of the arguments as to why this might be a poor idea. So again... what's the point of this thread? None. You can do whatever you want in your guild and I can't see any reason that any of us should care. I think it's not a hard requirement, but a silly one for reasons that have been stated several times. You obviously have no intention of changing the requirement so... why bother posting here?

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Tankitbetter View Post
    Watching a video may make them more knowledgeable but proving grounds can help with reflexes, awareness, interrupts etc.
    I have done all three specs in the PG. I cannot say that it helps improve any of those. Dps is you just burning stuff. Tanking is just moving out of a few basic things that are quickly learned in a raid since in a raid, it will kill you, unlike in PG. Healer, I just healed everything and ignored what the mobs where doing all together.

    team work doesn't get a rogue to interrupt on time
    Neither does the DPS challenge mode. What gets a rogue to interupt on time is the mechanic being threatening, aka the raid leader yelling at them.

    a warlock to swap to the correct add
    This one sure, the banshee. But there is hardly any fights in a raid where if an add comes out, someone isn't calling them out.
    ,
    [/quote] or the mage to move out of the fire.[/quote]nothing to move out of dps wise. Only the tanks that I saw.

    That's individual responsibility. PG helps show you can do the basics of the individual responsibility.
    A raid leader is also for a lot of that. When I raid lead I tell people to move, or to swap, or interrupt, all while tanking or healing. A good raid leader goes a long way towards making his raiders more aware and better. Much more so then PG. Seems like you are failing as a raid leader more then your members if after being told more then three times on a progression boss they still fail. And that amount is being generous. If they can't get it under good leadership, PG sure in the hell isn't going to teach them.

    The healer challenge is possibly the least useful. It's about intelligent play, proper CD usage, and it shows that if it comes down to it you're a competent healer who can make competent decisions.
    You don't really need any of that if your class is good enough.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tankitbetter View Post
    I am hoping it will help make players better in some ways, sure. Rising to the challenge - which some are having to do - of doing Gold is making them research their class better, look up strategies, etc. It's getting them engaged in making them better players.
    Its not going to do that. Its not a raid, there for wont help them learn their class for a raid. It wont teach them to line up CD's with procs, or how to gem and enchant properly for raids since with a scaled down ilevel, the gemming and gearing for it is different in some cases.

  9. #149
    Really, the biggest issue I have with the whole thing is as follows...

    You claim you have done all 3 at gold. So have I. Things I learned:

    1) Gold Tank teaches you nothing useful for raid tanking. Raid tanking is primarily about avoiding certain mechanics, CDing others, and tank swapping. The Conquerors are the ONLY mobs in the entire tank challenge that truly have any similarities to the majority of raid bosses, and even they don't enrage often enough to require planning and timing on your active mitigation.

    2) Gold Healer is even worse than Tank. The NPCs don't focus down important targets, interrupt poorly, stand in stupid, and in general if ANY of my raiders acted like one of them they'd be kicked on the spot. Also, it's very unpredictable, which is actually the opposite of most raid bosses. Good healing in a raid involves knowing what is coming next and pre-planning for it, as well as coordinating between yourself and your fellow healers as to target priorities and CDs. None of this is shown in PG. Not to mention that you'd gear completely differently than you would in a raid for a lot of the classes.

    3) Gold Damage is okay, except that it is strongly weighted towards classes with good mobile DPS, interrupts, and hard CCs. The worst part about Gold Damage is that it approaches it from the wrong direction. You have to adapt your class to meet what they throw at you in terms of burst and movement and the like. In a raid, I do the opposite. I control the fight, when I move, what I target, to best leverage my class strengths. My mass AE is shit? That's fine, I'll let the better classes AE the low HP junk while I multidot the higher HP targets and plow starsurges into a priority one. Same as with Tank/Healer, what truly defines a skilled raider is not what is tested in the proving grounds.

    So while you're correct in that everyone is capable of beating it, (It IS possible, even with the poorly suited classes) I question whether the requirement is actually going to improve your raids. Anyone who is going to step up their game because they're struggling in the proving ground is also going to step up their game because they're struggling on a boss. And the people who aren't going to step up their game no matter what? You shouldn't need the proving grounds to tell you who those raiders are.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tankitbetter View Post
    My warlocks have been able to do it no problem.
    Sure, your warlocks might have done Gold, but my point was that Proving Grounds doesn't teach a Warlock do Multi dot within a 4 second window. You are basicly ignoring all my posts and twisting my words against me...

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    I have done all three specs in the PG. I cannot say that it helps improve any of those. Dps is you just burning stuff. Tanking is just moving out of a few basic things that are quickly learned in a raid since in a raid, it will kill you, unlike in PG. Healer, I just healed everything and ignored what the mobs where doing all together.

    Neither does the DPS challenge mode. What gets a rogue to interupt on time is the mechanic being threatening, aka the raid leader yelling at them.

    This one sure, the banshee. But there is hardly any fights in a raid where if an add comes out, someone isn't calling them out. or the mage to move out of the fire.nothing to move out of dps wise. Only the tanks that I saw.
    DPS have to move for the amber shaper. But you're right, I thought there should have been more fire. There is fire for the healer and the tank.

    DPS isn't just "Burning stuff" - it's proper use of aoe, single target, burst, and cd usage. It's dpsing the right targets at the right time. It's interrupting the correct spell on the correct target.

    A raid leader is also for a lot of that. When I raid lead I tell people to move, or to swap, or interrupt, all while tanking or healing. A good raid leader goes a long way towards making his raiders more aware and better. Much more so then PG. Seems like you are failing as a raid leader more then your members if after being told more then three times on a progression boss they still fail. And that amount is being generous. If they can't get it under good leadership, PG sure in the hell isn't going to teach them.
    The raid leader's job is not to micromanage each individual person. Any raid leader who calls out every single thing that a player needs to do is just wasting voice. The RL doesn't need to say "interrupt" every time a mob is healing - they should do that on their own. Yes, I say "switch dps to adds" or "x ability incoming, spread" - that's basics - but I expect each member to be able to do their job even if I didn't say a thing.

  12. #152
    I don't think this is the purpose of PG's and I haven't seen any evidence that it's a significant indicator of raid performance.

    I understand wanting to help your guild mates with raid awareness but I'm not surprised this pushed a few away.

    How do you know doing PG's doesn't just make them better at PG's?

  13. #153
    I am Murloc! Volitar's Avatar
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    I think its stupid even for a casual/nooby guild.

  14. #154
    so ilvl is the only requirement ? cool ill join your guild ! -_- im required to do this ? what happened to only 1 requirement.

    You should either change how you advertise guild and keep it as a requirement or you could stick to what you said at first instead of wasting peoples time.

    If you were any sort of a raid leader you wouldn't need the PG to find the weakest links.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Volitar View Post
    I think its stupid even for a casual/nooby guild.
    hell yes it is, BUT I HAVE 3 GOLDS !!!11
    Last edited by akamurdoch; 2013-09-15 at 06:17 AM.
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  15. #155
    I don't understand how PG's are relevant to raiding most of the time. I mean... just no, It's a silly idea and i cannot even see an argument for it.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." -Friedrich Nietzsche

  16. #156
    depends on your guild. tbh i would rather quit wow then raid with people that cant take 5 min out of their schedule to get gold. Progression with such people is going to be slow as fuck xD so yeah if they cant do endless 10 i wouldnt bother raiding with em.

    But then again i'm not a part of your guild and i haven't got a clue what sort of raid environment you're running all guilds have to make a choice in regards to how casual they want their team.

  17. #157
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Proving grounds teaches nothing? I'd like to see how far all the dpsers posting here could get on endless.

  18. #158
    I could see maybe using it as a recruiting tool, but requiring people who are current raiders to go back and do it seems silly. I'd be screwed if I were a healer, because I could barely manage bronze on an alt. I did get gold damage and tank fairly easily though.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Tankitbetter View Post
    DPS have to move for the amber shaper. But you're right, I thought there should have been more fire. There is fire for the healer and the tank.

    DPS isn't just "Burning stuff" - it's proper use of aoe, single target, burst, and cd usage. It's dpsing the right targets at the right time. It's interrupting the correct spell on the correct target.
    Just burning stuff. I as a lock have but one interupt. Interrupts are not needed if you use the amber add to cc the healer add. The fire for both tank and healers isn't even an issue. They go out so rarely that its rare that you even get touched by a pool.


    The raid leader's job is not to micromanage each individual person.
    That's exactly what a raid leader does. If you raid keeps failing, find out who it is and correct the problem. Dont assume they will fix it. If they cant for whatever reason, replace them. If you can't be bothered to manage a raid, why should they bother to care? You obviously dont and want PG to teach them. PG wont teach them nearly well enough for what you expect.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Proving grounds teaches nothing? I'd like to see how far all the dpsers posting here could get on endless.
    Wave 19 on my 546 assassination rogue, but it taught me pretty nothing other than "use CDs". This just teaches how to use certain skills and to "max your skills". Nothing more.

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