Being forced into PG? thats shit.
Being forced into PG? thats shit.
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Can that person follow a kill/heal/tank priority?
Can they not stand in crap?
Can they pay attention to other factors (so, the healer NPC or the dps+tank NPCs)
Do they know the ins and outs of their class?
Those are the fundamentals of raiding. If you can't do that, and get pissed off when someone asks you to do it, then don't *expect* that they take you into their raids. As I already stated, if you are truly competent you can finish PG in 30minutes(ish). That is not some colossal time commitment, and most casual players probably spend many times that in a week sitting in their city of choice chatting or tabbed out watching youtube videos.
(As an aside, although I use "you", I don't mean *you*. Nor was I replying to you with my first post. I just see many defensive people using lines like "I'm casual so I shouldn't have to..." and "I don't have time for..." (while having time to afk for 2 hours a day). I think that attitude that casuals are somehow allowed to be bad is what is so damaging in a game like this. Instead of encouraging or forcing people to get better, we simply say "well it's ok because you're casual so don't worry about learning a proper rotation or gemming your gear - who even has time for that pfft!")
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I think PG is interesting but I don't think it's all that interesting to have to come up with an entirely different UI and healing strategy to do it. Rather than "interesting" it seems more like "pointless."
Lackluster's post is full of slippery slope fallacies. It's not really logical to say that I'll be requiring certain ranks in the limited-entry brawler's guild or for a 1750 in arena. That's just silly.
Nothing you are saying about what is expected of casuals do I disagree with, nor your assessment of them.
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And again, OP, you don't seem affected by any of the arguments as to why this might be a poor idea. So again... what's the point of this thread? None. You can do whatever you want in your guild and I can't see any reason that any of us should care. I think it's not a hard requirement, but a silly one for reasons that have been stated several times. You obviously have no intention of changing the requirement so... why bother posting here?
Neither does the DPS challenge mode. What gets a rogue to interupt on time is the mechanic being threatening, aka the raid leader yelling at them.team work doesn't get a rogue to interrupt on time
This one sure, the banshee. But there is hardly any fights in a raid where if an add comes out, someone isn't calling them out.a warlock to swap to the correct add
[/quote] or the mage to move out of the fire.[/quote]nothing to move out of dps wise. Only the tanks that I saw.
A raid leader is also for a lot of that. When I raid lead I tell people to move, or to swap, or interrupt, all while tanking or healing. A good raid leader goes a long way towards making his raiders more aware and better. Much more so then PG. Seems like you are failing as a raid leader more then your members if after being told more then three times on a progression boss they still fail. And that amount is being generous. If they can't get it under good leadership, PG sure in the hell isn't going to teach them.That's individual responsibility. PG helps show you can do the basics of the individual responsibility.
You don't really need any of that if your class is good enough.The healer challenge is possibly the least useful. It's about intelligent play, proper CD usage, and it shows that if it comes down to it you're a competent healer who can make competent decisions.
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Really, the biggest issue I have with the whole thing is as follows...
You claim you have done all 3 at gold. So have I. Things I learned:
1) Gold Tank teaches you nothing useful for raid tanking. Raid tanking is primarily about avoiding certain mechanics, CDing others, and tank swapping. The Conquerors are the ONLY mobs in the entire tank challenge that truly have any similarities to the majority of raid bosses, and even they don't enrage often enough to require planning and timing on your active mitigation.
2) Gold Healer is even worse than Tank. The NPCs don't focus down important targets, interrupt poorly, stand in stupid, and in general if ANY of my raiders acted like one of them they'd be kicked on the spot. Also, it's very unpredictable, which is actually the opposite of most raid bosses. Good healing in a raid involves knowing what is coming next and pre-planning for it, as well as coordinating between yourself and your fellow healers as to target priorities and CDs. None of this is shown in PG. Not to mention that you'd gear completely differently than you would in a raid for a lot of the classes.
3) Gold Damage is okay, except that it is strongly weighted towards classes with good mobile DPS, interrupts, and hard CCs. The worst part about Gold Damage is that it approaches it from the wrong direction. You have to adapt your class to meet what they throw at you in terms of burst and movement and the like. In a raid, I do the opposite. I control the fight, when I move, what I target, to best leverage my class strengths. My mass AE is shit? That's fine, I'll let the better classes AE the low HP junk while I multidot the higher HP targets and plow starsurges into a priority one. Same as with Tank/Healer, what truly defines a skilled raider is not what is tested in the proving grounds.
So while you're correct in that everyone is capable of beating it, (It IS possible, even with the poorly suited classes) I question whether the requirement is actually going to improve your raids. Anyone who is going to step up their game because they're struggling in the proving ground is also going to step up their game because they're struggling on a boss. And the people who aren't going to step up their game no matter what? You shouldn't need the proving grounds to tell you who those raiders are.
DPS isn't just "Burning stuff" - it's proper use of aoe, single target, burst, and cd usage. It's dpsing the right targets at the right time. It's interrupting the correct spell on the correct target.
The raid leader's job is not to micromanage each individual person. Any raid leader who calls out every single thing that a player needs to do is just wasting voice. The RL doesn't need to say "interrupt" every time a mob is healing - they should do that on their own. Yes, I say "switch dps to adds" or "x ability incoming, spread" - that's basics - but I expect each member to be able to do their job even if I didn't say a thing.A raid leader is also for a lot of that. When I raid lead I tell people to move, or to swap, or interrupt, all while tanking or healing. A good raid leader goes a long way towards making his raiders more aware and better. Much more so then PG. Seems like you are failing as a raid leader more then your members if after being told more then three times on a progression boss they still fail. And that amount is being generous. If they can't get it under good leadership, PG sure in the hell isn't going to teach them.
I don't think this is the purpose of PG's and I haven't seen any evidence that it's a significant indicator of raid performance.
I understand wanting to help your guild mates with raid awareness but I'm not surprised this pushed a few away.
How do you know doing PG's doesn't just make them better at PG's?
I think its stupid even for a casual/nooby guild.
so ilvl is the only requirement ? cool ill join your guild ! -_- im required to do this ? what happened to only 1 requirement.
You should either change how you advertise guild and keep it as a requirement or you could stick to what you said at first instead of wasting peoples time.
If you were any sort of a raid leader you wouldn't need the PG to find the weakest links.
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Last edited by akamurdoch; 2013-09-15 at 06:17 AM.
"Have you had the dream again? A black goat with seven eyes that watches from the outside."
I don't understand how PG's are relevant to raiding most of the time. I mean... just no, It's a silly idea and i cannot even see an argument for it.
depends on your guild. tbh i would rather quit wow then raid with people that cant take 5 min out of their schedule to get gold. Progression with such people is going to be slow as fuck xD so yeah if they cant do endless 10 i wouldnt bother raiding with em.
But then again i'm not a part of your guild and i haven't got a clue what sort of raid environment you're running all guilds have to make a choice in regards to how casual they want their team.
I could see maybe using it as a recruiting tool, but requiring people who are current raiders to go back and do it seems silly. I'd be screwed if I were a healer, because I could barely manage bronze on an alt. I did get gold damage and tank fairly easily though.
That's exactly what a raid leader does. If you raid keeps failing, find out who it is and correct the problem. Dont assume they will fix it. If they cant for whatever reason, replace them. If you can't be bothered to manage a raid, why should they bother to care? You obviously dont and want PG to teach them. PG wont teach them nearly well enough for what you expect.The raid leader's job is not to micromanage each individual person.