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  1. #101
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    And my point is the Orcs do not HAVE to have a War Chief. Their entire groups have always been lead by a Warchief. In this case, the Horde is the 'entire group'. Just as the Tauren do now, the Orcs can function just fine with a Chieftan.
    you don't seem to understand, how the orcs as a group onto there own have been diminished because of all this. The orcs identity is the horde, it isn't just the warchief, the orcs are the face of the horde, as humans are the alliance.
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  2. #102
    Scarab Lord Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    you don't seem to understand, how the orcs as a group onto there own have been diminished because of all this. The orcs identity is the horde, it isn't just the warchief, the orcs are the face of the horde, as humans are the alliance.
    I understand what you say, but Blizzard have to make the Horde and the alliance be just that, not orc and humans

  3. #103
    The Insane GennGreymane's Avatar
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    People seem to always forget the orcs were always about war even before the legion

    although pre legion, it was just small wars against themselves, and ogres.

  4. #104
    Scarab Lord Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
    People seem to always forget the orcs were always about war even before the legion

    although pre legion, it was just small wars against themselves, and ogres.
    They had small wars and conflicts between the clans and they saw (For a time) the ogres as enemies but with the time they became allies

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    "The Alliance have faltered! Unworth to the Lich King!"
    High Overlord Saurfang yells: The Alliance falter. Onward to the Lich King!
    is the actual quote.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Nungamunch View Post
    The Horde has not been an Orc brotherhood since the start of the Warcraft 3 campaign.

    Sorry to shame you, but a real world example of "only an Orc should be warchief" is "only a white man should be president."

    The Modern Horde is an amalgam of different races. That one of them is now warchief is a sign of progress, not doom.
    Implying progress is always a good thing? I think not, the Orcs have had the entirety of their development since WCIII completely shit on, They've (Players) been forced to fight a War they didn't want, for an Orc who has such hamfisted development that it's almost comical, only to find themselves not leading an organization that they founded, instead finding a race that has relied on them as a crutch, leading the Horde.

    Also, the "only a white man should be president." compairson that you, and many others have tried to make is incredibly stupid, don't try to make that argument.

    A closer comparison (Not entirely accurate, by any means) would be a hypothetical situation involving an immigrant from the United Kingdom trying to run for PotUS.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImportantLoreInformation View Post
    Seriously. Can this guy please be banned from the forums?
    Quote Originally Posted by JimPaladin View Post
    Could we just get this fucking clown a ban or something? Pretty please?

  7. #107
    Scarab Lord Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    Implying progress is always a good thing? I think not, the Orcs have had the entirety of their development since WCIII completely shit on, They've (Players) been forced to fight a War they didn't want, for an Orc who has such hamfisted development that it's almost comical, only to find themselves not leading an organization that they founded, instead finding a race that has relied on them as a crutch, leading the Horde.

    Also, the "only a white man should be president." compairson that you, and many others have tried to make is incredibly stupid, don't try to make that argument.

    A closer comparison (Not entirely accurate, by any means) would be a hypothetical situation involving an immigrant from the United Kingdom trying to run for PotUS.
    Well the horde have always been the orcs and his allies, that's why the warchief have always been an orc, but now that the Horde is not more orcs and their allies, is not more the orchist horde, is the HORDE

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    you don't seem to understand, how the orcs as a group onto there own have been diminished because of all this. The orcs identity is the horde, it isn't just the warchief, the orcs are the face of the horde, as humans are the alliance.
    well, that's good. try to imagine how players from the other races that actually care about the story used to feel about the "orcs and their sidekicks" horde. it wasn't nice to know that you were from a secondary race.

    as an undead player, I feel a troll warchief was the best thing that has ever happened to the horde.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  9. #109
    Scarab Lord Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    well, that's good. try to imagine how players from the other races that actually care about the story used to feel about the "orcs and their sidekicks" horde. it wasn't nice to know that you were from a secondary race.

    as an undead player, I feel a troll warchief was the best thing that has ever happened to the horde.
    Ohh men, you couldn't have said it better !

  10. #110
    Herald of the Titans MrHappy's Avatar
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    Troll the master race. /bow before the warchief voodoo man
    www.cherishyourit.ca MCTS - Win 7, MCTS - AD, A+, Security+

  11. #111
    Except think about the story telling potential the orcs have now for the next few expansions. It's no secret that the orcs have and will always be Blizzard's darling race and you can guarantee that there's going to be some sort of orc development in the works. The orcs have hit their low point in MoP, yes, but this is actually a good thing! They have no where else to go but up and they're primed for a good redemption arc in the Dark Below or whatever the next expansion will be. Look at how boring Alliance storytelling has become lately since asides from a few questionable moments, they've pretty much done no wrong and their story has thus stagnated.

  12. #112
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
    People seem to always forget the orcs were always about war even before the legion

    although pre legion, it was just small wars against themselves, and ogres.
    yes, just like dwarves.

    I don't see any dwarf persecution though in all this.
    Last edited by Trassk; 2013-09-16 at 10:33 PM.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    yes, just like dwarves.

    I don't seem any dwarf persecution though in all this.
    Trassk got a point there...

  14. #114
    They without a doubt need a non-Orc leading them. I know there have been a few great Orcs throughout their history but they've proved as a race as a whole at this point that they're not smart enough to lead themselves in the right direction. I mean, how many times have they dropped the ball? Massacring the Draenei, invading Azeroth, blowing up Draenor, allowing the rise of Garrosh's regime, etc. Yeah, they've screwed up more than enough to prove their incompetence.

    The worst part is that they're always quick to point a finger and misdirect the blame. Always the victim, never responsible. It's always the action of the few they say that made the majority go along with all the insanity. All because of Orcs like Nazgrim who would knowingly serve a madman and yet remain loyal all because "Herp derp honor! Cause thinking for myself hurts my head!" Nazgrim, the perfect example of how Orcs are typically as dumb as bricks. But he'll be remembered with reverence. Much like Grom Hellscream, a savage bloodthirsty monster, is hailed as hero after all the atrocities he reveled in committing. After all the darkness he helped bring down on his people. All because at the end of his disgusting life he performed one single act of good that is far over shadowed by the legacy he wrought. Ridiculous.

    So yes, it is about time someone else has stepped in to control them. Vol'jin who has always been a wise and sensible leader to his people. Who was brave enough to stand against Garrosh's tyranny. Who embodies the strength of brotherhood that the Horde represents. Perhaps now the green skinned neanderthals can be kept in line and on a path to a better future.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by maxilian View Post
    True, i don't think the trolls are the most populous race of the horde, but i do think that the Orcs are not the most populous race anymore, and if they still are, the difference between them and the others races of the horde is not much

    - - - Updated - - -



    Not really, in their home world (Draenor), the orcs were not a brutish race of warmangers, they became like that thanks to the demons, is true that they have always been a little more brutish that many other races, but they have also been really tied with nature, so is not true that they can't be anything else
    The orcs of Draenor had lived in a noble shamanistic society, roaming in tribes the grasslands of Nagrand on their dusty world of Draenor, for over 5,000 years. They lived in peace with the draenei and were at war with the ogres.
    http://wowpedia.org/Orcs#Early_history
    They were at war with the Ogre's and I believe it's been mentioned in the lore that the clans often battled each other way before the demons ever showed up. Orc's are a belligerent race, please stop trying to associate shamanism with pacifism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    yes, just like dwarves.

    I don't seem any dwarf persecution though in all this.
    The Dwarves haven't repeatedly tried to commit genocide either. They haven't ruined a planet yet, they haven't made pact's with demons, or used Old God's artifacts as super weapons.
    Last edited by Anevers; 2013-09-16 at 10:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by lakers01 View Post
    Those damn liberal colleges! Can you believe they brainwash people into thinking murder is wrong! And don't get me started with all that critical thinking bullshit!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells
    You don't get to troll, lie, and treat government like a game for your own purposes and then expect to be treated like a statesmen. Fuck that.

  16. #116
    Herald of the Titans Uzi's Avatar
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    Yes, 5.4 proved orcs really need spoilers.

  17. #117
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anevers View Post
    The Dwarves haven't repeatedly tried to commit genocide either. They haven't ruined a planet yet, they haven't made pact's with demons, or used Old God's artifacts as super weapons.
    maybe because, the world hasn't seen dwarves as monsters and tried to kill them off.

    "They haven't made packs with demons" no, just the fucking firelord who could turn the world to cinder.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And then you say "No thats wrong, because not all dwarves have done that so you can't accuse all dwarves of doing that"

    And yet for some reason in your mind, you think all orcs can be generalized into one group of just being green monsters who want to commit genocide against all.

    Well theres shit in your coffee, if you can make a generalization of all orcs as such, the same applies to dwarves and there worship of chaos.
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  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    maybe because, the world hasn't seen dwarves as monsters and tried to kill them off.

    "They haven't made packs with demons" no, just the fucking firelord who could turn the world to cinder.

    - - - Updated - - -


    And then you say "No thats wrong, because not all dwarves have done that so you can't accuse all dwarves of doing that"

    And yet for some reason in your mind, you think all orcs can be generalized into one group of just being green monsters who want to commit genocide against all.

    Well theres shit in your coffee, if you can make a generalization of all orcs as such, the same applies to dwarves and there worship of chaos.
    The Dark Irons never made a pact with Rag, they didn't even intend to summon him. He was an accident, Rag then proceeded to enslave the Dark Irons. Please don't confuse entering into a contract with slavery.
    Quote Originally Posted by lakers01 View Post
    Those damn liberal colleges! Can you believe they brainwash people into thinking murder is wrong! And don't get me started with all that critical thinking bullshit!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells
    You don't get to troll, lie, and treat government like a game for your own purposes and then expect to be treated like a statesmen. Fuck that.

  19. #119
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anevers View Post
    The Dark Irons never made a pact with Rag, they didn't even intend to summon him. He was an accident, Rag then proceeded to enslave the Dark Irons. Please don't confuse entering into a contract with slavery.
    And the orcs didn't know they were backing packs with demons, remember, they were manipulated into it.

    Yet, unlike the dwarves, who are not firmly planted in the alliance, its always the same 'oh the orcs made packs with demons there sooo bad!'.
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  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    Implying progress is always a good thing? I think not, the Orcs have had the entirety of their development since WCIII completely shit on, They've (Players) been forced to fight a War they didn't want, for an Orc who has such hamfisted development that it's almost comical, only to find themselves not leading an organization that they founded, instead finding a race that has relied on them as a crutch, leading the Horde.

    Also, the "only a white man should be president." compairson that you, and many others have tried to make is incredibly stupid, don't try to make that argument.

    A closer comparison (Not entirely accurate, by any means) would be a hypothetical situation involving an immigrant from the United Kingdom trying to run for PotUS.
    your first and second points I agree with, warcraft 3 story progression for orcs up until wrath had them as, at the very least, trying to get past their time as being little more than slaves to demons and pawns in an attempt to conquer a world. THEY DID NOT WANT WAR. then garrosh shows up and does the classic political trap of speaking about glory and what the orcs deserve and how the only thing holding them back is the alliance, and alongside varian's overaggressive nature he manages to convince the young orcs who don't know any better that the answer to all their problems is fighting (note, I said YOUNG ORCS. you know, those impressionable ones with all the emotional restraint and impulse control of a teenager.) then he furthers this later by A: adding a large force of absolutely fanatical oppressive and xenophobic blackrock orcs to the horde, and B: using them as a secret police force to either weed out naysayers or force them into line. the orcs do not need a non orc leader to prevent them from doing something wrong, they just need a competent one and not to have the closest thing they have to a traditional enemy constantly pressuring them.

    the "only a white man should be president" comparison is in fact idiotic, it's comparing real world human culture in which some people have bias against specific ethnicities to a fantasy culture in which a now multi-generational leadership role for one race is being passed to another because the very first person from the orcs that they thought of wasn't sure he was fit to lead the horde after being away for so long. when a leadership position has become engrained into your culture it is a monumental change for it to suddenly be passed to a different group, no matter how close they are. it would be akin to having varian die and instead of anduin getting the throne it goes to muradin. it's not a matter of "well we don't like someone because *insert stupid bias here*" it's "well we're changing something everyone's known for ages because of a decision we're making on the spot".

    this one I don't agree on, as others have pointed out yes the warchief title has always been an orc one BUT it is also a standard of each version of the horde, as one of the 3 original new horde races orcs would be much closer to official citizens and, going off the comparison you used, would thus be legally allowed to try for the role. in more game specific phrasing, they're IN the horde, they're not one of the groups no one else in the horde really trusts with something important, and vol'jin has proven his loyalty several times.

    going entirely on topic, no it's not proof, no they don't need a non orc leader to be "good" any more than humans need a non human leader to be good or dwarves and nightelves need a non (oh wait, varian's doing that for them, astounding how complaints about that are getting less common in favor of saying orcs are nothing but bloodthirsty monsters that need to be led by the nose.) and the fact blizzard uses them as a fallback group for faction aggression is part of what I see as the biggest failing in WoW storytelling, when the factions have a war all good racial development goes out the window for both groups.
    ...at this point it's almost guaranteed that "war in warcraft" is garrosh getting on his incompetent podium to declare yet another group his enemy for the crime of breathing his air, alliance saying this is horde favoritism, and the more....special....yes.. let's go with special... horde players seeing garrosh as a god because he lets them attack the alliance players who keep saying that out being led by a moron is horde favoritism.

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