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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    And the orcs didn't know they were backing packs with demons, remember, they were manipulated into it.

    Yet, unlike the dwarves, who are not firmly planted in the alliance, its always the same 'oh the orcs made packs with demons there sooo bad!'.
    They didn't know drinking Demonic Blood was bad? Manipulated into Genocide against a peace loving neighbor I can understand. Drinking Demonic Blood? Invading a world and slaughtering its peaceful inhabitants? They knew they had screwed up their own planet, there was cognizance there, they simply decided to take another planet for their own uses its inhabitants be damned.

    Again Slavery is not an Alliance. Do not even bother to compare the two, no matter how you stretch it, it simply false. Every chance given the majority of the Orcs have proven they are more than willing to embrace war, genocide and imperialism. No other current race/culture of playable characters (with the exception of the Forsaken, and we know their deal) actively participates in this. Their culture is based around Honor in Battle with a side of Shamanism.
    Quote Originally Posted by lakers01 View Post
    Those damn liberal colleges! Can you believe they brainwash people into thinking murder is wrong! And don't get me started with all that critical thinking bullshit!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells
    You don't get to troll, lie, and treat government like a game for your own purposes and then expect to be treated like a statesmen. Fuck that.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    And the orcs didn't know they were backing packs with demons, remember, they were manipulated into it.

    Yet, unlike the dwarves, who are not firmly planted in the alliance, its always the same 'oh the orcs made packs with demons there sooo bad!'.
    I've gotta be honest, I agree with trassk here, and on a few other things. quite often when alliance races get manipulated or forced into something (dark iron dwarves, who were already jerks to the rest of the dwarves before hand, getting forced into ragnaros' service. stormwind not paying and then forcing out the stonemasons due to onyxia's manipulation of the stormwind nobles) the playerbase rails against anyone pointing the actions out as wrong or evil, but at the same time whenever the orcs are brought up they're seen as unspeakable monsters that only want war and killing and death when they were tricked and controlled by gul'dan and the burning legion. kil'jaeden made the orc's most trusted shaman ner'zhul think the draenei were planning something terrible, of course they fought. the demon blood was presented as a blessing and gift by gul'dan who by then had taken over and forced the now repentant and disgusted ner'zhul into silence, of course they took it. they were then under the control of the burning legion just about every time the legion chose to actually pay attention to them, and even when they weren't they had little to no self control because their aggression had been pushed to extreme levels by the blood.

    after the various ploys were over the orcs who were around during the demon blood ordeal were possibly the most disturbed by their actions of the three races I mentioned, the dark irons didn't seem to care too much since while they were under ragnaros' service they at least got an edge against the blackrock orcs in their constant fighting. the people of stormwind were in various degrees of shock at the treatment of the stonemasons and disgust at the actions of the defias brotherhood in retaliation, heck varian goes into a rage over them. saurfang and other older orcs are fairly repentant and want to avoid fighting....for things they were FORCED to do after being tricked, they let themselves bear the blame for something they did against their will and they are truly sorry for it regardless of why it happened.
    ...at this point it's almost guaranteed that "war in warcraft" is garrosh getting on his incompetent podium to declare yet another group his enemy for the crime of breathing his air, alliance saying this is horde favoritism, and the more....special....yes.. let's go with special... horde players seeing garrosh as a god because he lets them attack the alliance players who keep saying that out being led by a moron is horde favoritism.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Anevers View Post
    They didn't know drinking Demonic Blood was bad? Manipulated into Genocide against a peace loving neighbor I can understand. Drinking Demonic Blood? Invading a world and slaughtering its peaceful inhabitants? They knew they had screwed up their own planet, there was cognizance there, they simply decided to take another planet for their own uses its inhabitants be damned.

    Again Slavery is not an Alliance. Do not even bother to compare the two, no matter how you stretch it, it simply false. Every chance given the majority of the Orcs have proven they are more than willing to embrace war, genocide and imperialism. No other current race/culture of playable characters (with the exception of the Forsaken, and we know their deal) actively participates in this. Their culture is based around Honor in Battle with a side of Shamanism.
    Dwarves enslaved by an Elemental Lord = They had no choice!
    Orcs manipulated and enslaved by demons and used as a tool for destruction = They knew what they were doing!

    The Dwarves intentionally released and tried to control an Elemental Lord to take Ironforge, failed to do so and then were enslaved. They are hardly innocents who simply stumbled upon Ragnaros, they knew what they were doing and fucked up.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Anevers View Post
    They didn't know drinking Demonic Blood was bad? Manipulated into Genocide against a peace loving neighbor I can understand. Drinking Demonic Blood? Invading a world and slaughtering its peaceful inhabitants? They knew they had screwed up their own planet, there was cognizance there, they simply decided to take another planet for their own uses its inhabitants be damned.

    Again Slavery is not an Alliance. Do not even bother to compare the two, no matter how you stretch it, it simply false. Every chance given the majority of the Orcs have proven they are more than willing to embrace war, genocide and imperialism. No other current race/culture of playable characters (with the exception of the Forsaken, and we know their deal) actively participates in this. Their culture is based around Honor in Battle with a side of Shamanism.
    oh get over yourself. no, they didn't know drinking the demon blood was bad, when they were shown it it was presented like a means of salvation. the draenei were always distant and mysterious, PEOPLE DON'T TRUST THINGS THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND, it's astoundingly easy to turn people against a neighbor they only rarely talk to when you're telling the closest thing those people have to a leader using his own dead wife's form to trick him that they're planning something. peaceful? don't make me laugh, the humans didn't have very high regard for one another until the alliance of lordaeron was formed because they realized they needed it to keep the old horde from absolutely decimating them. and when your world is falling into such a horrible state that there's very little safe livable land left you take any chance you can to ensure you and your family live.

    the orcs didn't have a full alliance with the demons either, the only one who did was gul'dan and he and kil'jaeden were both just having a "bwuahahaha I'm going to betray them later for more power" off at each other. the other orcs were almost entirely under enough of a haze that they wouldn't be able to control themselves for anything short of all the demons dieing. there's a reason they went into a lethargic depression as soon as the second war ended, they stopped being controlled directly outside a few fanatical groups like the burning blade and suddenly their aggression stopped, they had nothing pushing them to fight.

    and by the way, their culture is based HEAVILY on shamanism, there's a reason the one person all the orc tribes on draenei listened to was the high shaman.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultramonkey View Post
    Dwarves enslaved by an Elemental Lord = They had no choice!
    Orcs manipulated and enslaved by demons and used as a tool for destruction = They knew what they were doing!

    The Dwarves intentionally released and tried to control an Elemental Lord to take Ironforge, failed to do so and then were enslaved. They are hardly innocents who simply stumbled upon Ragnaros, they knew what they were doing and fucked up.
    agreed, the fact that many of them just went on with their lives instead of even TRYING to do something about ragnaros doesn't seem to say they were too worried about it. on the other hand the orcs who knew about the demon blood were split into 2 groups, the first is gul'dan and the shadow council who abused that for personal power, the second are orcs like doomhammer and durotan who tried to distance themselves as much as they could and were forced into quite a bit of the fighting. (fun fact, the reason doomhammer kept fighting the humans after he killed blackhand was because the war was too far along to just stop. if he stopped the alliance of lordaeron would just come after them in revenge, which they did anyway, and the orcs who were pretty much all under the control of the demon blood still probably wouldn't listen.)
    ...at this point it's almost guaranteed that "war in warcraft" is garrosh getting on his incompetent podium to declare yet another group his enemy for the crime of breathing his air, alliance saying this is horde favoritism, and the more....special....yes.. let's go with special... horde players seeing garrosh as a god because he lets them attack the alliance players who keep saying that out being led by a moron is horde favoritism.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultramonkey View Post
    Dwarves enslaved by an Elemental Lord = They had no choice!
    Orcs manipulated and enslaved by demons and used as a tool for destruction = They knew what they were doing!

    The Dwarves intentionally released and tried to control an Elemental Lord to take Ironforge, failed to do so and then were enslaved. They are hardly innocents who simply stumbled upon Ragnaros, they knew what they were doing and fucked up.
    Never have claimed the Dark Irons as innocents, they were the aggressors in the War of the Three Hammers. You are trying to twist what I wrote (while pulling complete BS out of the air) to make your point. They had no intention to Summon an Elemental Lord, they merely wanted to rebuff the approaching Bronzebeards and Wildhammers, and accidently summoned something they couldn't control. Its like going to the local super market with the intent of shoplifting a candy bar but somehow walking out with a ton of Uranium. When Ragnaros was summoned into this plane of existence he created a huge explosion, that created Searing Gorge and Burning Steppes.

    Quote Originally Posted by razorfire View Post
    oh get over yourself.
    No. You get over yourselves.
    It's quite different than drinking Demon Blood with the promise of power, then traveling to another world and committing Genocide knowing what they were doing (Doomhammer knew full well what he was doing). If you all you guys can do is argue against only one of my points, its pretty pathetic, just accept that when it comes to shit done wrong the Dark Irons cannot be compared. Just accept the Orcs are these peace loving hippies you want them to be. Again Shamanism isn't Pacifism, they are a warlike race, who's spiritual needs are handled by Shaman.
    Last edited by Anevers; 2013-09-16 at 11:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by lakers01 View Post
    Those damn liberal colleges! Can you believe they brainwash people into thinking murder is wrong! And don't get me started with all that critical thinking bullshit!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells
    You don't get to troll, lie, and treat government like a game for your own purposes and then expect to be treated like a statesmen. Fuck that.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Anevers View Post
    Never have claimed the Dark Irons as innocents, they were the aggressors in the War of the Three Hammers. You are trying to twist what I wrote (while pulling complete BS out of the air) to make your point. They had no intention to Summon an Elemental Lord, they merely wanted to rebuff the approaching Bronzebeards and Wildhammers, and accidently summoned something they couldn't control. Its like going to the local super market with the intent of shoplifting a candy bar but somehow walking out with a ton of Uranium. When Ragnaros was summoned into this plane of existence he created a huge explosion, that created Searing Gorge and Burning Steppes. It's quite different than drinking Demon Blood with the promise of power, then transversing worlds and committing Genocide.

    If you all you guys can do is argue against only one of my points its pretty pathetic, just accept that when it comes to shit done wrong the Dark Irons cannot be compared. Just accept the Orcs are these peace loving hippies you want them to be.
    you only HAVE one point "orcs are bad cause reasons but these other guys are less bad cause they didn't know everything about what they were doing. I've already posted multiple times the only orcs who knew what the demon blood actually was were either avoiding it or would be lynched by the rest of the orcs if they actually knew. but you keep ignoring that to go back to saying the dark irons were enslaved so they aren't as bad as the orcs who you only seem to view as all being bloodthirsty monsters.

    if you can't accept there may be reasons beyond just wanting to fight for one group why do you keep saying another isn't as bad because they had reasons that WERE to fight. "oh hey we started a war completely under our own control, no outside influence, no tricks against us, no strange substance limiting our self control, LET'S USE MAGIC TO STOP LOSING!" versus "our most trusted figure was tricked into seeing a group that we don't fully understand as evil so we fought them, then we got handed something that our SECOND most trusted figure said would assure victory and prosperity against a group we already see as evil, oh hey our world's falling apart while we're still under an outside influence and a chance of our race surviving just opened up, let's go there! *continue on to warcraft 2 where blackhand dies* ...ok killed the warmonger and puppet of the insane power hungry warlock now to stop this wa-oh wait we can't cause they'll just stab us in the back if we turn around and leave now....freaking demon blood"
    ...at this point it's almost guaranteed that "war in warcraft" is garrosh getting on his incompetent podium to declare yet another group his enemy for the crime of breathing his air, alliance saying this is horde favoritism, and the more....special....yes.. let's go with special... horde players seeing garrosh as a god because he lets them attack the alliance players who keep saying that out being led by a moron is horde favoritism.

  7. #127
    What's wrong with the leader of the Horde not being an orc? The Horde isn't only orcs. The leader of the alliance in classic was a dwarf. Do the trolls always have to have an orc to lead them?

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Anevers View Post
    Never have claimed the Dark Irons as innocents, they were the aggressors in the War of the Three Hammers. You are trying to twist what I wrote (while pulling complete BS out of the air) to make your point. They had no intention to Summon an Elemental Lord, they merely wanted to rebuff the approaching Bronzebeards and Wildhammers, and accidently summoned something they couldn't control. Its like going to the local super market with the intent of shoplifting a candy bar but somehow walking out with a ton of Uranium. When Ragnaros was summoned into this plane of existence he created a huge explosion, that created Searing Gorge and Burning Steppes. It's quite different than drinking Demon Blood with the promise of power, then transversing worlds and committing Genocide.

    If you all you guys can do is argue against only one of my points its pretty pathetic, just accept that when it comes to shit done wrong the Dark Irons cannot be compared. Just accept the Orcs are these peace loving hippies you want them to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anevers View Post
    The Dark Irons never made a pact with Rag, they didn't even intend to summon him. He was an accident, Rag then proceeded to enslave the Dark Irons. Please don't confuse entering into a contract with slavery.
    Ragnaros was "an accident"? Thaurissan was about to be stomped by the Wildhammer and Bronzebeards and decided to unleash the ancient power he KNEW was buried in Redridge. Did he know the magnitude of this power? No. Did he goof? Yes. He believed he was going to summon a power to form an allegience with to crush his foes, only to be incinerated.

    The Orcs however, tricked Ner'zhul (by using his wife) into believing that the Draenei were about to attack. Ner'zhul found out they had been tricked, only to be betrayed by his apprentice Gul'dan, who was promoted while Ner'zhul was fucked. Gul'dan was the only Orc who had any arrangement with the Legion, the rest were led to believe that the Demon Blood had no effects other than the strength to defeat the Draenei, not knowing they would become a tool for the Legion to use against Azeroth.

  9. #129
    you only HAVE one point "orcs are bad cause reasons but these other guys are less bad cause they didn't know everything about what they were doing.
    You did not read my first post in the thread then, I had multiple points, including that the dwarves have not destroyed a planet.
    I have already posted multiple times the only orcs who knew what the demon blood actually was were either avoiding it or would be lynched by the rest of the orcs if they actually knew.
    Drinking the Blood was optional, The Frost wolves did not drink, and neither did Doomhammer. Yes, the Frostwolves were exiled but it was not for drinking the blood. Gul’dan was convinced they were a threat since the Frost Wolves had issues what was happening within their culture.
    but you keep ignoring that to go back to saying the dark irons were enslaved so they aren't as bad as the orcs who you only seem to view as all being bloodthirsty monsters.
    Every time they are lead by a leader who is an Orc (and raised as an Orc), genocide happens. There maybe something to that...

    if you can't accept there may be reasons beyond just wanting to fight for one group why do you keep saying another isn't as bad because they had reasons that WERE to fight. "oh hey we started a war completely under our own control, no outside influence, no tricks against us, no strange substance limiting our self control, LET'S USE MAGIC TO STOP LOSING!" versus "our most trusted figure was tricked into seeing a group that we don't fully understand as evil so we fought them, then we got handed something that our SECOND most trusted figure said would assure victory and prosperity against a group we already see as evil, oh hey our world's falling apart while we're still under an outside influence and a chance of our race surviving just opened up, let's go there! *continue on to warcraft 2 where blackhand dies* ...ok killed the warmonger and puppet of the insane power hungry warlock now to stop this wa-oh wait we can't cause they'll just stab us in the back if we turn around and leave now....freaking demon blood"
    Kind of a mess there, took me awhile to sift through what was readable. your grasp on the lore maybe tenuous you think Doomhammer was a puppet of Gul’dan.

    This is Gul’dan bowing before Doomhammer, who was Demonblood free, who was bent on killing every humanoid except the Amani Trolls who they had an alliance with.

    If you drive under the influence, you are responsible if you hit someone. The orcs made their choice and screwed up. It’s a poor and tired argument to blame everything on Demons and being deceived. You cannot blame what Hellscream did as Warchief on Demons and deceit. The orcs chose their path, and some have decided not to play the victims. Too bad the players who play them have not done the same.

    "To pretend it [the demonic corruption] did not exist is to forget how dreadful the impact was. To make ourselves into victims, rather than claiming our participation in our own destruction. We chose this path, we orcs. We chose it right up until it was too late to turn back. And having made that choice, we can, with the knowledge that we have of the end of that dark and shameful road, choose not to take it." -Rise of the Horde, page 139


    Quote Originally Posted by Ultramonkey View Post
    Ragnaros was "an accident"? Thaurissan was about to be stomped by the Wildhammer and Bronzebeards and decided to unleash the ancient power he KNEW was buried in Redridge. Did he know the magnitude of this power? No. Did he goof? Yes. He believed he was going to summon a power to form an allegience with to crush his foes, only to be incinerated.

    The Orcs however, tricked Ner'zhul (by using his wife) into believing that the Draenei were about to attack. Ner'zhul found out they had been tricked, only to be betrayed by his apprentice Gul'dan, who was promoted while Ner'zhul was fucked. Gul'dan was the only Orc who had any arrangement with the Legion, the rest were led to believe that the Demon Blood had no effects other than the strength to defeat the Draenei, not knowing they would become a tool for the Legion to use against Azeroth.
    No, he didn’t. He didn’t know he’d get Rag, this has been supported by in game lore. Did he goof, hell yeah.

    Around three hundred years ago the ambitious and ruthless Dark Iron clan initiated a war against their dwarven brethren, the Bronzebeard clan and Wildhammer clan, thinking that they were about to unite against the Dark Irons. During this War of the Three Hammers, the Dark Iron dwarf leader named Thaurissan lay siege to the Wildhammers' capital city of Grim Batol and destroyed it. Due to this victory, the Wildhammers and Bronzebeards did decide to unite against the Dark Irons and were ultimately able to push them back to the city of Thaurissan, the Dark Iron Dwarven home. Thaurissan, seeking to summon a supernatural minion that would turn the tide of the war back to his favor, called upon the ancient powers sleeping beneath the world. To Thaurissan's surprise, and ultimately his doom, the creature that emerged was more terrible than any nightmare he could have imagined.
    You still trying to wash away the sins of the Orcs by comparing them to something different, give it a break.

    If you wan’t to debate another point be my guest, but this point is done.
    Last edited by Anevers; 2013-09-17 at 12:16 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by lakers01 View Post
    Those damn liberal colleges! Can you believe they brainwash people into thinking murder is wrong! And don't get me started with all that critical thinking bullshit!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells
    You don't get to troll, lie, and treat government like a game for your own purposes and then expect to be treated like a statesmen. Fuck that.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Anevers View Post
    You did not read my first post in the thread then, I had multiple points, including that the dwarves have not destroyed a planet.


    Drinking the Blood was optional, The Frost wolves did not drink, and neither did Doomhammer. Yes, the Frostwolves were exiled but it was not for drinking the blood. Gul’dan was convinced they were a threat since the Frost Wolves had issues what was happening within their culture.


    Every time they are lead by a leader who is an Orc (and raised as an Orc), genocide happens. There maybe something to that...



    Kind of a mess there, took me awhile to sift through what was readable. your grasp on the lore maybe tenuous you think Doomhammer was a puppet of Gul’dan.

    This is Gul’dan bowing before Doomhammer, who was Demonblood free, who was bent on killing every humanoid except the Amani Trolls who they had an alliance with.

    If you drive under the influence, you are responsible if you hit someone. The orcs made their choice and screwed up. It’s a poor and tired argument to blame everything on Demons and being deceived. You cannot blame what Hellscream did as Warchief on Demons and deceit. The orcs chose their path, and some have decided not to play the victims. Too bad the players who play them have not done the same.


    If you wan’t to debate another point be my guest, but this point is done.
    oh yes and your own reading skills are just so astounding. the orcs were PUSHED to do the various things they did, something that you and many others seem to ignore in favor of viewing them as nothing but evil.

    drinking the blood was optional yes, but if you didn't drink it you were viewed with HEAVY distrust by gul'dan and his servants the shadow council. doomhammer didn't drink because he was warned and intentionally avoided it, the same is true for durotan, however neither of them could warn the others as it would be their word against gul'dan's and at the time gul'dan was THE most trusted figure in orc leadership.

    every time the dark irons are in contact with other dwarves their first action is to try and take over. every time the nightelves encountered a new group in ashenvale their first action was to try to exterminate them simply for being on "holy ground". every time the draenei got caught up to by the legion their action of choice was to flee abandoning the inhabitants of the world they landed on to be killed by demons. if you want to keep this up feel free but it doesn't prove anything but you saying you dislike one specific race more than others.

    where, and I mean ANYWHERE in what I've posted have I said "doomhammer was a puppet of gul'dan"? I said blackhand was a puppet of gul'dan, and that's true as he was the figurehead gul'dan used to manage the military side of the old horde. doomhammer was one of the ones who was against what gul'dan was doing, the thing is he was too late to throw it into reverse without risking his entire race.
    oh and going after my way of writing something on an internet forum to undermine my credibility, astounding debate skills there.


    your comparing the demon blood to alcahol is a weak comparison at best, warcraft 3 was a gigantic example that if the demons want to they could have near full control of the orcs under the effect of the demon blood. so you're saying that somehow unknowingly taking something that makes you a slave to an outside force that you only knew as something that was supposed to guarantee victory in what is seen as a war against a seemingly dangerous enemy...is on the same level as getting drunk and getting in a car when you know you've had a few alcoholic drinks...

    OF COURSE THEY FEEL BAD ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED, OF COURSE THEY FEEL REPENTANT have you looked at the ebon blade? they were under arthas' control until they finally broke free after suffering enough trauma, suddenly they repent for everything they were forced to do. it takes a real monster not to feel disgusted by your own actions after being forced to do something, the orcs at least show they care enough to shun the path they were tricked into despite the power it could give them.
    ...at this point it's almost guaranteed that "war in warcraft" is garrosh getting on his incompetent podium to declare yet another group his enemy for the crime of breathing his air, alliance saying this is horde favoritism, and the more....special....yes.. let's go with special... horde players seeing garrosh as a god because he lets them attack the alliance players who keep saying that out being led by a moron is horde favoritism.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Anevers View Post
    You did not read my first post in the thread then, I had multiple points, including that the dwarves have not destroyed a planet.


    Drinking the Blood was optional, The Frost wolves did not drink, and neither did Doomhammer. Yes, the Frostwolves were exiled but it was not for drinking the blood. Gul’dan was convinced they were a threat since the Frost Wolves had issues what was happening within their culture.


    Every time they are lead by a leader who is an Orc (and raised as an Orc), genocide happens. There maybe something to that...



    Kind of a mess there, took me awhile to sift through what was readable. your grasp on the lore maybe tenuous you think Doomhammer was a puppet of Gul’dan.

    This is Gul’dan bowing before Doomhammer, who was Demonblood free, who was bent on killing every humanoid except the Amani Trolls who they had an alliance with.

    If you drive under the influence, you are responsible if you hit someone. The orcs made their choice and screwed up. It’s a poor and tired argument to blame everything on Demons and being deceived. You cannot blame what Hellscream did as Warchief on Demons and deceit. The orcs chose their path, and some have decided not to play the victims. Too bad the players who play them have not done the same.


    If you wan’t to debate another point be my guest, but this point is done.
    1. The Orcs didn't destroy a planet, one Orc did by opening too many portals which tore Draenor apart.

    2. Drinking the blood was optional, but only the Frostwolves got the message from Ner'zhul of it's corruption.

    3. There have been 5 Orcish Warchief, excluding Thrall because he is human raised is bullshit. He holds his heritage higher than he holds his upbringing, he may have been raised in a Human settlement, but he was definetely not raised as a human. Claiming that leaders are genocidal in a time of war is hysterical, if they didn't fight back against their enemies they would be extinct. All the Orcish Warchiefs did their duty in the defence of their people except for Blackhand, who openly charged through the Dark Portal looking for a fight (albeit under the Legion's influence).

  12. #132
    Aren't the people comparing Orcs with Dark Irons forgetting the fact that the Dark Irons are hostile to *every* one in WoW, recent Moira developments withstanding?

    Until the day that Dark Irons are a playable Alliance sub-race, and you can pick an Orc that has non-green skin, I don't think the comparison is very valid.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultramonkey View Post
    1. The Orcs didn't destroy a planet, one Orc did by opening too many portals which tore Draenor apart.

    2. Drinking the blood was optional, but only the Frostwolves got the message from Ner'zhul of it's corruption.

    3. There have been 5 Orcish Warchief, excluding Thrall because he is human raised is bullshit. He holds his heritage higher than he holds his upbringing, he may have been raised in a Human settlement, but he was definetely not raised as a human. Claiming that leaders are genocidal in a time of war is hysterical, if they didn't fight back against their enemies they would be extinct. All the Orcish Warchiefs did their duty in the defence of their people except for Blackhand, who openly charged through the Dark Portal looking for a fight (albeit under the Legion's influence).
    By destroy I meant ruined it, only a small part of it was left that could sustain life, not enough to sustain the Orc as a race. The reason Doomhammer was trying to claim Azeroth, his Orcs couldn't go back to Draenor, not after what their Warlock's magics had wrought.

    5 Orcish Warchiefs? You sure?

    Blackhand
    DoomHammer
    Hellscream
    Ner'zhul (Maybe if you want to count him)
    ???

    He was raised as a Human, he wasn't even nursed by an Orc regularly, he had a human wet nurse. He was taught Human tactics and values. He learned his Orc heritage second hand from Grom Hellscream.

    Orcs committed Genocide against the Draenei, tricked to do so, but not because the Draenei had threated to wipe out the Orcs.
    The First and Second War Orcs committed Genocide against the inhabitants of Azeroth, so they could claim it as their own.
    Hellscream's New war was because they again wanted to Claim the World as their own, because they felt the Horde deserved it more than the other races.
    Last edited by Anevers; 2013-09-17 at 12:44 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by lakers01 View Post
    Those damn liberal colleges! Can you believe they brainwash people into thinking murder is wrong! And don't get me started with all that critical thinking bullshit!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells
    You don't get to troll, lie, and treat government like a game for your own purposes and then expect to be treated like a statesmen. Fuck that.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    "You need to look at the bigger picture."
    "You need to think how this works for the long term story."
    "Stop whining because you don't like the story, that doesn't make it bad."
    This. So much this. And Trassk was one of the biggest users of those sorts of lines when Alliance players complained that they felt their faction was neglected.

    Now the Orcs get reduced, not even for a fraction as long as the Alliance was through Cata and arguably much of MoP, and "herp derp the lore has gone to shit" now that his dog in the fight has been affected.

    Well, Trassk, what words did you use for Alliance players? Prissy? Whining?

    Hmm...

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Anevers View Post
    By destroy I meant ruined it, only a small part of it was left that could sustain life, not enough to sustain the Orc as a race. The reason Doomhammer was trying to claim Azeroth, his Orcs couldn't go back to Draenor, not after what their Warlock's magics had wrought.

    5 Orcish Warchiefs? You sure?

    Blackhand
    DoomHammer
    Hellscream
    ???
    ???

    He was raised as a Human, he wasn't even nursed by an Orc regularly, he had a human wet nurse. He was taught Human tactics and values. He learned his Orc heritage second hand from Grom Hellscream.

    Orcs committed Genocide against the Draenei, tricked to do so, but not because the Draenei had threated to wipe out the Orcs.
    The First and Second War Orcs committed Genocide against the inhabitants of Azeroth, so they could claim it as their own.
    Hellscream's New war was because they again wanted to Claim the World as their own, because they felt the Horde deserved it more than the other races.
    Draenor wasn't destroyed until Ner'zhul opened portals to allow Orcs to flee from the advancing Alliance Expedition. It was still fully habitable until the mass portals tore it asunder.

    Blackhand
    Ner'zhul
    Doomhammer
    Thrall
    Garrosh

    Orcs were deceived into killing the Draenei, then misled by a single Orc who defected to the Legion for power into drinking the Blood. Under the effects of the blood, the Orcs were led through the Dark Portal to conquer a land that the Legion wanted (a land they were attracted to about 10,000 years prior to these events). This was not done under the Orcs own volition, but the effects of the blood which caused them to be hyper-violent and bloodthirsty. Garrosh never initiated a new war, the war has been ongoing, his main goal was to destroy all those who oppose him. If his goal was to claim Azeroth solely for the Orcs, why did he not slay all the Tauren, Trolls, Goblins and Undead inside Orgrimmar? He was nothing more than a wartime leader in a time of war.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by High Priestess Ishanah View Post
    .. A non Orc to govern them?

    Lets tick off their former leaders-

    Warchief Blackhand. Corrupt warmonger, a puppet of an even bigger monster, Gul'dan

    Warchief Doomhammer, admitedly badass, who while not corrupt, still rampaged through an alien world with his demonic powered army and butchered thousands, if not more

    Warchief Thrall, raised by humans, under whom the horde actually proved itself more than it's detractors were willing to give it

    .. Warchief Garrosh, a trueblooded Orc, and also a monster who tried to finish what the others started, but without the demon influence. managed to do this with near full support of the Orcish people.

    Warchief Vol'jin, a TROLL, chosen by the human raised orc

    are they trying to tell us something? Do the Orcs NEED a ruler who isn't an -Orc- to avoid going evil?

    i honestly dont like it.
    Don't worry, next we'll be seeing moira lead the alliance. Yeah, you heard it here first people, get your tinfoil hats ready.

    Or maybe they'll go TRUE hardcore, and we'll see mekkatorque. Varian wrynn will die by that gnomes hands, and we'll get to see how potent wow's story is without orcs vs humans.

    Spoilers.

  17. #137
    Orcs were deceived into killing the Draenei, then misled by a single Orc who defected to the Legion for power into drinking the Blood. Under the effects of the blood, the Orcs were led through the Dark Portal to conquer a land that the Legion wanted (a land they were attracted to about 10,000 years prior to these events). This was not done under the Orcs own volition, but the effects of the blood which caused them to be hyper-violent and bloodthirsty. Garrosh never initiated a new war, the war has been ongoing, his main goal was to destroy all those who oppose him. If his goal was to claim Azeroth solely for the Orcs, why did he not slay all the Tauren, Trolls, Goblins and Undead inside Orgrimmar? He was nothing more than a wartime leader in a time of war.[/QUOTE]

    Clearly you don’t know what your talking about. You notice how Hellfire is dead? That’s what the majority of the planet was like until it blew up. Doomhammer clearly states he is out to claim Azeroth for his Race because Draenor can no longer support his race because the Warlocks magic.

    The warlock magics wielded by the orcs turned Draenor into a dusty wasteland.
    Ner’Zhul also wanted to escape a dying planet, hence one of the reasons he opened all those portals. Draenor was a dying world by the time of its fragmentation. Its mentioned in the Shattering, that’s the reason why Thrall goes back to Nagrand, to learn how to keep the same thing from happening to Azeroth.
    Did you miss the part of the Cinematic where he claims the Trolls, and the like are no long apart of his Horde? And yes he initiated a new war, after The Lich King died, there was a peace accord between the Alliance and the Horde, its mentioned in the Shattering.

    Again the Orcs made their choice, and it was poor. Stop defending what amounts to a drunken mistake,
    "To pretend it [the demonic corruption] did not exist is to forget how dreadful the impact was. To make ourselves into victims, rather than claiming our participation in our own destruction. We chose this path, we orcs. We chose it right up until it was too late to turn back. And having made that choice, we can, with the knowledge that we have of the end of that dark and shameful road, choose not to take it."
    Quote Originally Posted by lakers01 View Post
    Those damn liberal colleges! Can you believe they brainwash people into thinking murder is wrong! And don't get me started with all that critical thinking bullshit!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells
    You don't get to troll, lie, and treat government like a game for your own purposes and then expect to be treated like a statesmen. Fuck that.

  18. #138
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anevers View Post

    Again the Orcs made their choice, and it was poor. Stop defending what amounts to a drunken mistake,
    "To pretend it [the demonic corruption] did not exist is to forget how dreadful the impact was. To make ourselves into victims, rather than claiming our participation in our own destruction. We chose this path, we orcs. We chose it right up until it was too late to turn back. And having made that choice, we can, with the knowledge that we have of the end of that dark and shameful road, choose not to take it."
    just because saurfang is making that statement, which has truth to all he says, it doesn't mean the orcs back then knew what kind of evil they were being tempted by, or that it was some damming it would damage there society, and lead to the destruction of there world.
    you can argue the same ignorance with any race that dabbles in dark powers beyond there limits, its the same as saying how night elves under azshara nearly brought the lord of the legion to azeroth.. yet that same order of night elves is now back in the alliance? So its ok to trust them, but not any orc because of what happened a generation ago?

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    just because saurfang is making that statement, which has truth to all he says, it doesn't mean the orcs back then knew what kind of evil they were being tempted by, or that it was some damming it would damage there society, and lead to the destruction of there world.
    you can argue the same ignorance with any race that dabbles in dark powers beyond there limits, its the same as saying how night elves under azshara nearly brought the lord of the legion to azeroth.. yet that same order of night elves is now back in the alliance? So its ok to trust them, but not any orc because of what happened a generation ago?
    10,000 years ago for the Highborn vs what? a couple of generations for the Orcs? You can for damn sure give the highborn a second chance, the Orcs under Garrosh started sliding backwards into genocide and mass-murder within two generations or so of their "new beginning".

    Two totally different situations.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by atsawin26 View Post
    10,000 years ago for the Highborn vs what? a couple of generations for the Orcs? You can for damn sure give the highborn a second chance, the Orcs under Garrosh started sliding backwards into genocide and mass-murder within two generations or so of their "new beginning".

    Two totally different situations.
    Except most of the Highborne accepted back are the same ones who were alive 10,000 years ago. Orcs don't have the benefit of immortality and new generations have taken over.

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