Is this proof that the Orcs need... (spoilers)

[lostdrewid]

The problem is, the writers are Blizzard don't understand their own creations. And the root of that problem is they can't seem to grasp the concept of honor. Why is honor considered the number one Orc virtue, when so few of them actually act with honor? Granted... virtually no one outside of the Tauren and Night Elves were honorable until recently, but that just shows that the writers have a smidgen of an idea of what honor is; why they can't apply it to the one race that shouts it to the heavens, I don't understand.

I guess it's kind of like the supposedly-religious folk, who shout as loud as they can about their religion, because they have none of its core tenets at heart? The Orcs shout loudest about honor because they have none to begin with.

So far, Mists of Pandaria has been the most story-driven of all expansions... I applaud them for trying, but they really need to sit down and figure out this whole "honor" thing before we get anywhere.

[Zulkhan]

Well the Darkspear are probably the smallest faction. They're one small splitter group of the Gurubashi Empire, the smallest in fact, and then lost even greater numbers to the Kul Tiras marines and the murloc raids.

You're forgetting all the Darkspear trolls mindcontrolled by Zalazane, all dead ofcourse after the retaking of the Echo Isles. Plus, as the figurehead of the Rebellion, they probably even had the greatest number of casualities compared to the other Horde races, since they began to fight the Kor'kron fa before the arrival of Lor'themar and Sylvanas.

Only point on their favor is that they had no kind of involvement in the Pandaria campaign, since Garrosh didn't summon them for their "lack of loyalty".

I think the Blood Elves have a pretty fair number too

I don't know, I guess they have decent numbers, but they still remain just a 9% of the previous High Elven's population, and even after the Scourge olocaust there have been further defections (the Silver Covenant, the elves in Theramore and those scattered in the Northern Eastern Kingdoms, all the Sunfury died with Kael'thas, and the Scryers in Shattrath).

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Also someone pointed out that many other clans of Trolls joined the Darkspears, so that may have increase a lot the number of Trolls in the horde

I don't think this ever happened. The only other troll tribe allied with the Horde is the Revantusk, and they can be considered more "formal allies" compared to the Darkspear, plus they are on the other side of the world.

[Verdugo]

Orcs are Orcs! Fucking hell, Warcraft is the only lore that has Orcs, who are fucking kitten, puppy huggers! Jesus Christ! At least one race in this game that's about WAR and people want to destroy that! Go play Hello Kitty Adventure seriously! Or rename the game, 'cause this is bullshit. Orcs need a War-hungry leader, if the whole game is based on fucking lolipops, let at least the race that's the most war-hungry, be that!

Unfortunately, that only works when Orks/Orcs are not just green humans.

You need numbers for that.

[Maxilian]

The problem is, the writers are Blizzard don't understand their own creations. And the root of that problem is they can't seem to grasp the concept of honor. Why is honor considered the number one Orc virtue, when so few of them actually act with honor? Granted... virtually no one outside of the Tauren and Night Elves were honorable until recently, but that just shows that the writers have a smidgen of an idea of what honor is; why they can't apply it to the one race that shouts it to the heavens, I don't understand.

I guess it's kind of like the supposedly-religious folk, who shout as loud as they can about their religion, because they have none of its core tenets at heart? The Orcs shout loudest about honor because they have none to begin with.

So far, Mists of Pandaria has been the most story-driven of all expansions... I applaud them for trying, but they really need to sit down and figure out this whole "honor" thing before we get anywhere.

I think that's the point, they wanted to show how garrosh had a lack of Honor but still figthed for honor...

[Zulkhan]

I think that's the point, they wanted to show how garrosh had a lack of Honor but still figthed for honor...

Garrosh wasn't new to say a thing and doing the opposite, or just think something and acting in a more appealing way. He began to do so in his short-story, then became just more evident.

[Maxilian]

Garrosh wasn't new to say a thing and doing the opposite, or just think something and acting in a more appealing way. He began to do so in his short-story, then became just more evident.

Yeah, i'm pretty sure Blizzard know these well, and i think they wanted to do these, to have the Orc fans against Garrosh..., also... i don't really think that "Honor" is a great thing, i mean... the forsakens don't fight with Honor, but i think the way they fight is better, is a more effective way to destroy your enemy without losing a lot of your people

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True, but their casualties aren't as important as they have a constant stream of new corpses. If I recall from the SoO soundfiles, Sylvanas suggests she could resurrect the fallen Blood Elf rangers, but upon Lor'themar's objections, she instead targeted fallen Alliance troops.


Things like that ensures that the Forsaken always have plenty of cannon fodder to go around

Yep, but still i don't think they are the most populous race of the horde, is true that, right now, they are one of the strongest races of the horde, but that's because, for them, is easier to get more soldiers (thanks Valkyrs) and they have one of the strongest area-damage weapon (Plague)

[Zulkhan]

Yeah, i'm pretty sure Blizzard know these well, and i think they wanted to do these, to have the Orc fans against Garrosh..., also... i don't really think that "Honor" is a great thing, i mean... the forsakens don't fight with Honor, but i think the way they fight is better, is a more effective way to destroy your enemy without losing a lot of your people

In the end "Honor" is not valued by entire races, but mostly by individuals. Garrosh just did, you know, SPECTACULARLY dishonorable acts, but in war small events regarding vicious, cowardly and shameful acts happen, no matter which is the common mantra of the race in question. Just look at the Admiral Rogers in Pandaria, she ordered an all-out slaughter of any drowning and disarmed Horde soldier that fell in water, but I guess no one will go to storm her house and cut her head.

[Maxilian]

In the end "Honor" is not valued by entire races, but mostly by individuals. Garrosh just did, you know, SPECTACULARLY dishonorable acts, but in war small events regarding vicious, cowardly and shameful acts happen, no matter which is the common mantra of the race in question. Just look at the Admiral Rogers in Pandaria, she ordered an all-out slaughter of any drowning and disarmed Horde soldier that fell in water, but I guess no one will go to storm her house and cut her head.

Hahaha, see you there :P

[checking facts]

Saurfang. the orc who brought the forces of kalimdor together
Eitrigg. friend to tirion fordring and once argent crusade member
Gorgonna. Leader of the horde forces in grizzly hills who asked you to help a human woman out.

just because they made assholes like garrosh and malkorok, doesn't mean orcs don't understand good politics, or trying for peace for the greater good.

This whole fucking expansion has shat over any development the orcs have had since wc3..

from your 3 examples, I'd say only saurfang is anything of a politician or a diplomat.

eitrigg had his life saved by tirion, so of course they got friends. if you think he's a diplomat, re-do the burning steppes quests and see what he did to his own people lol
gorgonna took the leadership from her hold by killing her sister in a duel to death in an arena. that's not a lot of diplomacy.

both are good orcs, but they suck as politicians lol

[Zulkhan]

from your 3 examples, I'd say only saurfang is anything of a politician or a diplomat.

Even Saurfang is not excatly the brightest example. Respected and wise? Yes. Good in diplomacy and politics? Oh...well.

Like Muradin, he didn't think twice about attacking the Skybreaker, regardless the fact that they were there for, you know, dethrone the Lich King.

And when he wins the battle:

"The Alliance have faltered! Unworth to the Lich King!"

Mmmm...

[Gelhiss]

I don't know that Saurfang technically counts there either. He didn't (to my knowledge) bring the Horde and Alliance together to fight the Qiraji. That was Anachronos and the Bronze Dragonflight with the help of the always-unrecognized PCs. Saurfang just led them once they did. He was Eisenhower, essentially.

[Zulkhan]

I don't know that Saurfang technically counts there either. He didn't (to my knowledge) bring the Horde and Alliance together to fight the Qiraji. That was Anachronos and the Bronze Dragonflight with the help of the always-unrecognized PCs. Saurfang just led them once they did. He was Eisenhower, essentially.

The Might of Kalimdor was mostly a prove of how goddamn charismatic Saurfang was as a leader in times of war, so much that even a 7th's Legion commander swore to follow him until his dying breath. But politics and diplomacy are all another stuff.

[Cernunnos]

This is true, but there is still no reason that the Warchief cannot be a non-Orc. Vol'jin can just as easily govern the Orcish clans as an Orc could.

And technically, the title Warchief means the military leader of the Horde, similar to Supreme Allied Commander of the Alliance. Just as a Supreme Allied Commander doesn't need to be Human (Granted, it looks like it will be via Varian), the Warchief doesn't need to be an Orc. The Horde in the olden days was Orcs ONLY, hence why all previous Warchiefs with the exception of Garrosh and Thrall needed to be Orcs. Thrall became Warchief by reuniting the Orcs, and by gathering allies in the Trolls, Tauren, Undead, Blood Elves, and Goblins. Garrosh became Warchief under Thrall's orders.

Besides. There are Chieftans of Troll clans, there are Chieftans of Tauren clans, there's even a Chieftan of a Taunka clan. None of those are Orcs; Does the Warchief not govern them because they are not Orcs?

Will it make more sense to people if I write it like this "War Chief" is the Orc racial Leader. "Warchief" is the leader of all the Horde races. Some of you seem to be somewhat confused due to the the same title being used for two roles. It's a bit easier with the Alliance as Varian is "King" of the humans, and "High King" of the Alliance. The same person holds two positions, the second doesn't always have to be the same race every time, I.E A Human for alliance (though I dont see Varian stepping down from that role for some time, nor do I see a council being made soon either) and orcs for Horde, Humans will always have a King and Orcs will always have a War chief. Admittedly the orcs track record with councils isn't much better than having a single leader to be fair.

To answer your last question, the Warchief of the Horde governs those races, the Warchief of the Orcs does not, unless said person is also Warchief of the Horde, which until Vol'jin, it was also the case.

[Deathgoose]

As an Alliance player, I will admit that, despite all of the signs pointing at it happening, having a non-Orc as the Horde's Warchief still feels odd.

But then, Thrall stepping down in Cata to appoint Garrosh seemed idiotic from the start, and was the chief reason my wife and I chose Alliance over Horde when we made the decision to consolidate all our toons to one side or the other, as we were evenly split until Cata.

Oh the irony.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ssy-this-patch

That being said, I will also admit to getting a bit of amusement as the author of that thread is now flipping his shit over this.

[Trassk]

And my point is the Orcs do not HAVE to have a War Chief. Their entire groups have always been lead by a Warchief. In this case, the Horde is the 'entire group'. Just as the Tauren do now, the Orcs can function just fine with a Chieftan.

you don't seem to understand, how the orcs as a group onto there own have been diminished because of all this. The orcs identity is the horde, it isn't just the warchief, the orcs are the face of the horde, as humans are the alliance.

[Maxilian]

you don't seem to understand, how the orcs as a group onto there own have been diminished because of all this. The orcs identity is the horde, it isn't just the warchief, the orcs are the face of the horde, as humans are the alliance.

I understand what you say, but Blizzard have to make the Horde and the alliance be just that, not orc and humans

[GennGreymane]

People seem to always forget the orcs were always about war even before the legion

although pre legion, it was just small wars against themselves, and ogres.

[Maxilian]

People seem to always forget the orcs were always about war even before the legion

although pre legion, it was just small wars against themselves, and ogres.

They had small wars and conflicts between the clans and they saw (For a time) the ogres as enemies but with the time they became allies

[Kralljin]

"The Alliance have faltered! Unworth to the Lich King!"

High Overlord Saurfang yells: The Alliance falter. Onward to the Lich King!

is the actual quote.

[Wildberry]

The Horde has not been an Orc brotherhood since the start of the Warcraft 3 campaign.

Sorry to shame you, but a real world example of "only an Orc should be warchief" is "only a white man should be president."

The Modern Horde is an amalgam of different races. That one of them is now warchief is a sign of progress, not doom.

Implying progress is always a good thing? I think not, the Orcs have had the entirety of their development since WCIII completely shit on, They've (Players) been forced to fight a War they didn't want, for an Orc who has such hamfisted development that it's almost comical, only to find themselves not leading an organization that they founded, instead finding a race that has relied on them as a crutch, leading the Horde.

Also, the "only a white man should be president." compairson that you, and many others have tried to make is incredibly stupid, don't try to make that argument.

A closer comparison (Not entirely accurate, by any means) would be a hypothetical situation involving an immigrant from the United Kingdom trying to run for PotUS.