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  1. #1
    Mechagnome a C e's Avatar
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    Our Guild's mage

    Hello guys,

    One of our friends has recently decided to raid with us but his gear is abit low around 520 item level. We are soon starting to progress in SOO normal when everyone becomes ready.

    I was wondering which spec should our mage go at his current item level ??

  2. #2
    Anything above 496 I'd say fire.

  3. #3
    High Overlord Henzington's Avatar
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    There is a ton of movement in Siege so honestly fire is best there are a few fights which are less movement heavy where arcane would clearly be better like Paragons for example.

  4. #4
    I actually have been wondering this aswell, I'm sitting at around 515 ilvl currently after my recent reroll to mage.
    I'm currently around 35% crit and I feel my dps as fire is way to low as it should be even tho I'm pretty sure I'm kinda doing everything right.
    I went arcane the other day for giggles in an LFR (with full crit, which is shit for arcane) and still I popped numbers that seemed to be better then what I do as fire, I can only imagine what kind of dps I would do if i redid my gear for mastery.

    I would prefer to play fire, but now I'm just hopelessly confused.

  5. #5
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chosenkiwi View Post
    Anything above 496 I'd say fire.
    I hope they never make me a moderator for the sake of people like you.

    You can have him play any spec he likes. Only constraint on spec choice *might* be in the world top 100 guilds that are trying to meet ridiculous DPS checks without having a full set of normal gear before attempting heroics.

    There is no clear advantage of any of the specs for any of the fights. You will get a lot more DPS out of your mage if you allow him to play the spec he is best at rather than the one the top mage in the world is best at. Have him do some practice and go with what fits him the best.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Henzington View Post
    There is a ton of movement in Siege so honestly fire is best there are a few fights which are less movement heavy where arcane would clearly be better like Paragons for example.
    Frost does incredibly well in high movement situations, especially with 2pc and a haste build.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Silay View Post
    I actually have been wondering this aswell, I'm sitting at around 515 ilvl currently after my recent reroll to mage.
    I'm currently around 35% crit and I feel my dps as fire is way to low as it should be even tho I'm pretty sure I'm kinda doing everything right.
    I went arcane the other day for giggles in an LFR (with full crit, which is shit for arcane) and still I popped numbers that seemed to be better then what I do as fire, I can only imagine what kind of dps I would do if i redid my gear for mastery.

    I would prefer to play fire, but now I'm just hopelessly confused.
    If you can finagle your gear to 12684 haste, give frost a try with Nether Tempest. If you like how it feels, you can really do some awesome gameplay in SoO. Frost/Arcane is nice, since there is gear overlap and both specs have amazing strengths.

  6. #6
    High Overlord Skyefire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chosenkiwi View Post
    Anything above 496 I'd say fire.
    Wut? I wouldn't go fire til you have at least like.. 35% crit, preferably 40%+. Before that I feel like it's subject to too much RNG. I personally went Fire at about 505-510 ilvl but this was at the start of ToT and I hated playing Frost so I wanted to switch ASAP haha.

    @OP: I think fire/arcane, but to be honest just whatever he prefers playing if you guys aren't hardcore about progression.
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  7. #7
    fully agree @ Akraen
    Let him play sepec he's comfortable with, this way you will probably profit the most.

    edit: still dreaming of a frost specc without the elemental ^^

  8. #8
    If you can play like Akraen Frost is fine. Granted, you'll need 95% bomb uptimes and 95% evo uptimes. You can go through his logs and see he puts up good numbers as frost, if you want proof.

    Fire has been good to me so far, so it's an option. It handles movement well, but blows chunks on burst (like killing oozes on immerseus. GG no pyros).

    I haven't tried arcane and probably won't. I'll let our warlock/Spriest take all that haste/mastery gear.

  9. #9
    Letting him play what he is comfortable with and supporting him exploring other specs is a good way to nurture a well rounded and happy dps. If you play in the average to above average arena of gameplay, there is such a negligible difference between spec when those specs are played with confidence and competence.

    I haven't played fire since the 5.4 patch. In 5.3 it was a frustrating exercise in expectation and disappointment peppered with moments of sheer joy at some of the numbers I could put up. Fire does have mobility, though I would hazard to say its not much more than frost if played right.

    Frost, having played around with the new mastery, seems to have a bit more on demand burst with some welcomed increase in cleave damage overall. It plays pretty much the same as in 5.3 though. It can be pretty mobile from the sheer amount of haste we have in that spec and how we can stutter cast if needed.

    Arcane, I have only just yesterday played with since 5.1. I can't comment on it in raiding, though I have played with it on the Isle against some of the more meaty mobs. It can put up some incredibly large numbers on a well buffed barrage. Other than that, it is still really limited in its mobility, even with the larger rune of power. It has some nifty cleave in barrage as well. I don't care for this spec in day to day tasks like on the Isle or dungeons though.

    So the theme here is, if you want him to do well, let him play what he is comfortable with, and has the highest active time in. Movement seems pretty heavy for us, and uptime, or ABC, will be pretty important over even sheer difference in dps numbers.

  10. #10
    Mechagnome a C e's Avatar
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    Well he loves fire and frost, but as frost he is doing low damage and i havent logged him yet to see in what areas he is failing. with his item level will he be able to be a competent fire mage?

  11. #11
    Why don't you log him and bring those logs back here so we have something to look at. Just saying he's low damage without any context or logs to look at his actions/uptime/etc doesn't help really. He may be doing just fine for his gear, or he may not. We can't determine that without some data.

    If he is behind you guys by like 10+ ilvls though, then he's really already behind the 8 ball trying to compete as the better geared dps "steal" potential damage from the pool from lower geared players. This deflates their relative dps, and that should not be discounted.

    Heck, even an armory link would be helpful, just to cover spec, forge and gems. I don't mean to sound rude, but 9 times out of 10, we end up educating the raid/guild leader on what is actually a well played mage who is either behind on gear or being asked to do roles they are not suited for. The other times, yes, its pretty easy to spot and offer corrections for a mage that isn't doing something correctly, but we can only make those calls with something in front of us.

  12. #12
    I actually wouldn't advise fire in SoO for your mage right now. Around 520 ilvl sadly doesn't tell us much, but Fire also used the ToT-4pc quite a lot to put out good numbers. If he doesn't have that, he should stay away from it for a bit.

    Even more importantly, I don't really feel Fire is a very good specc for a fresh start in SoO. If you are progressing, you will likely find a large variation in DPS from pull to pull with lower-geared firemages, which - and I'm speaking from experience here - can really mess up your sense of timing and tactics on a boss. Additionally, from my limited insight so far, I found that the more challenging parts of SoO are more about adds and burst then about "movement", two things Fire isn't particularly good at. Not bad either, mind you, and if he likes the specc he should play it. But Fire is a difficult, fickle mistress at the best of times.

    I would advise you to go Arcane or Frost. Arcane is very well rounded and just does really good damage right now in most situations SoO throws at you. It can be a bit bothersome for less experienced people since you can actually "mess up" a bit, so Frost is still an option. It's obviously always an uphill battle to compete with Frost in highend-raiding (see Akraens frustration in this very thread), but if you are progressing normal, Frost will give you good, reliable results from an early stage on. The skillcap is quite high as well, and its frankly just a lot of fun. Frost gets my vote for that specific scenario. Also, good luck and have fun in SoO!

  13. #13
    I don't really understand you Akraen. If you look at WoL right now, frost is a SOLID 50-75k dps behind fire/arcane on every single fight. Some fights (Malkorok, Jugg, etc) it is upwards of 100k behind (not just looking at top 5, just overall looking through first few pages of each fight for mages).

    Why would you gimp yourself so hard? I understand (but severely disagree with) the notion of "play what you enjoy cause its a gaaaaaame", but really? Why put yourself that far behind?

    To others, 520 is not too low for SoO. My guild is 10/14 right now with a 512 windwalker and a 523 retadin. It is completely possible, just need competent people.

  14. #14
    Fire if he has enough crit and arcane when there is little movement. The fanboy for lol frost mages has been here so look at logs and you will see how 'competitive' Frost is, some people think because they aren't last that the spec is fine.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusteyy View Post
    I don't really understand you Akraen. If you look at WoL right now, frost is a SOLID 50-75k dps behind fire/arcane on every single fight. Some fights (Malkorok, Jugg, etc) it is upwards of 100k behind (not just looking at top 5, just overall looking through first few pages of each fight for mages).

    Why would you gimp yourself so hard? I understand (but severely disagree with) the notion of "play what you enjoy cause its a gaaaaaame", but really? Why put yourself that far behind?

    To others, 520 is not too low for SoO. My guild is 10/14 right now with a 512 windwalker and a 523 retadin. It is completely possible, just need competent people.
    Ur right 520 is not to low considering the first 4 bosses are tuned for around that item Lvl, but I still wouldn't touch fire till 40% crit and hopefully t15 4p cause of the combust nerf although 1 mill burst are still easy on fights like galakras and dark shaman. But if you don't have the gear to play fire then you really have no choice but to go frost/ arcane and frost can still get you ok numbers on some fights with NT and ice lance cleaving although its miles behind fire and arcane

  16. #16
    I was gonna leave Dusty alone, but then unholyness came in and made another sad, uninformed posting. I wouldn't even care so much, if this weren't a thread specifically aimed at advice for a mage fresh into raiding; I feel because of this it is even more vital to present a fair and even picture.

    The fact is: Asking us to "look at the logs" is just vain and stupid, and you know it. Simple issue is this: there ARE no logs for Frost. I challenge you to find logs from well geared frost mages in a guild that is currently competing in, say, a top 200 position. You are unlikely to find many. People in that position don't play Frost, and I even agree that they are right not to do so. But if you take their logs from Arcane and Fire and compare them to vastly less experienced and less geared frost mages, it is quite obvious what kind of result you're going to get. That is NOT a good representation of the speccs abilities.

    Frost might be trailing behind, and you would hardly find anyone who argues against that. No one is saying Frost is the best specc in the world. All the "frost fanboys" are arguing for is that people stop being so utterly entrenched about speccs and look at them with an open mind again. Frost is by no means as badly off as you make it out to be. The 50k-100k difference Dustey quotes is basically a fantasy number. The reality of the specc is hard to gauge, because there is almost no one playing it, and there is little to no reliable theorycrafting even on things as basic as statweights. But if the same people who are putting out the good numbers as Fire where suddenly all forced to play Frost, they would likely produce a much smaller gap in DPS.

    Now sure, Vykina and Blatty will never play Frost in its current state. Why should they? If I had to play in a competetive setting again, I wouldn't settle for anything but the highest output either. But only very few people are playing at that stage. And what so many people misunderstand is that WoW is not a game of absolutes by any means. In theory, Frost is maybe 5% behind Fire. In practice, I might be just horrible as Fire. Or not have the gear for it. Or even more surprisingly, I might be Frost, and still be very competetive in my guilds DPS-rankings. Because realistically, once you leave the top 100 rankings, no one can really tell a 5% theoretical DPS difference anymore. At the "normal" raiding levels, so many other factors become so much more important that the theoretical difference in specc potential should be the very least of your problems.

    That is why Akraen and others are arguing for people to look at Frost. Not to convince those who like the other speccs of our wisdom. But to show those who might like Frost that it is a serious alternative. Not in every situation, and not for everyone. But it isn't a joke specc, it isn't utterly broken. I've already made a post here explaining what I think are Frosts strengths, and why people might chose it. That should allow for everyone interested to make their choice accordingly. I really fail to understand the point in trying to devalue these points by simply pointing to some imaginary number differences.

  17. #17
    The Patient Kver's Avatar
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    If, at any point in this game, you let the top 100 WoL entries decide what class and spec you play.. Just go away. That's not the point of this game at all. Decide your class/spec based on what you like. If you play frost perfectly but fail to make a proper combustion as fire then you'll be better as frost, even in BiS gear. Stop having your vision clouded by what the top 0.01% players do and start optimising your gear for frost. Then come back once you've given it a proper try yourself.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by unholyness View Post
    Fire if he has enough crit and arcane when there is little movement. The fanboy for lol frost mages has been here so look at logs and you will see how 'competitive' Frost is, some people think because they aren't last that the spec is fine.
    I don't think there are many people around here that would agree that frost is fine where it is. Quite the opposite. However, they are trying to make the best out of a bad situation. Sure, you could go fire or arcane or whatever happens to be the spec that is pulling the best numbers now. But if you don't enjoy it, what is the point?

    You could go off and play some other class and play the best spec for that class at the moment but still not play better numbers than you would as a frost mage. But at least you are playing the best spec for your class, right? And maybe you're having fun with it too so who can blame you then? You're doing all you can do right?
    But of course, there's the option if you are already playing that other class and you go on and check the logs of the top people in the world and holy hell, Fire/Arcane is pulling more than most other classes. Well, better just go reroll then! Because why play something that isn't the best thing around, right?

    Frost isn't the best spec out of the three right now. But if you aren't really looking to be pulling down heroic bosses next week or even if you are and you're not too much of a hurry, I really don't see anything wrong with playing what you enjoy. Be it Frost, Fire, Arcane or Hello Kitty Island Adventure.

    When a push comes to shove, you gotta do what you love. Even if it is not a good idea.

  19. #19
    Either arcane of frost, I dont think he has gear for fire yet and even then arcane is still competitive.

  20. #20
    Arcane can put out the best number and fire is a close second but you need gear for both and playing arcane adds 2 new mechanics to any encounter, minimizing movement and mana management. 520 ilvl is pretty low to get good numbers from arcane and even still behind the approximate ilvl where fire starts doing really well. Frost is amazing for low ilvls so he just needs to get better at it even though its very simple. If he's doing poor dps I can say with almost certainty it's because of his bomb uptime and his invocation up time, both need to be 95% plus.

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