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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Dazzy View Post
    How many times do you people (yeah I said it) need to be told: Flex is not intended for pugs. LFR is intended for pugs.
    Flex is so you can play with your friends or guild (any number besides 10 or 25), so you DON"T NEED TO PUG.
    If you choose to pug, it will be unbearable.

    Flex is scaled from normal. Would you take 9 random idiots into normal? No. Then why would you take 13 random idiots into flex which theoretically is the same difficulty as normal?
    Get your paper dictionary out and look up scaled, obviously google and wikipedia failed you.


    As for the thread title: Flex worse than LFR? That awkward moment when....you find out your friends suck at wow?

    lol ouch that would be awkward..

  2. #242
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Agreed. The comments on this thread indicate how quickly players forget how pugs work. For the longest time there was no middle ground between faceroll easy and unpuggably hard, so players on non-progressed haven't experienced proper pugs since WotLK.
    It's also a bit curious to me that true raiding is celebrated by many due to its devotion to overcoming obstacles by failing over and over again until things sort themselves out and then the immense satisfaction of overcoming the odds and getting a satisfying and great win. Pugs, not so much.

    It's always been that way of course but it's a disconnect that is slightly hypocritical. Pug groups are always constructed to hopefully be as likely to win as LFR is. This is accepted as a good thing in pugs; it's destroying the game in LFR according to some. Note that I do understand the differences between all of these raiding modes and difficulties. There's just a lot of contradictory thinking in all of it.
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  3. #243
    My experience with FLEX. First, I'd like to note that my ilvl was around 510-515 when trying to get a group.

    The first two pugs I joined were able to get to phase 2 of the first boss....with no more than half the people alive. We had vent for 1 group, no vent for another. The group that had vent did worse on mechanics, the group that did not have vent just were under geared and unprepared. Joining random groups that did not request any ilvl req I ended up getting in groups that were generally filled with people under ilvl 500, many of the key roles didnt have gems/enchants on gear. Also each group had 10-13 people. They both seemed like nice partial guilds just trying it out, and they'll probably be fine with a bit of prep work, but not week 1. I was pleasantly surprised by the lack of attitude and anger over wiping repeatedly.

    The 3rd group I joined advertised a min 510 ilvl, so I barely got in, not that they checked. At first our group had 11 people, then they decided to add more, then more then more then more. It quickly filled up, and I think the mechanics were easier with more people. There was more wiggle room, more coverage of the add areas, etc. I'd say most people probably pulled their weight and there were very few deaths due to mechanics. We killed the boss on the 2nd try. We killed the 2nd boss on the second try. 3rd boss I think also was 2 tries, and the 4th boss was probably 3 tries. The group had people that could follow basic mechanics and perform moderate dps. It was fun, no one asked, and they were close calls in the end. Over time I'm sure that it will get easier as the LFR gears people. It wasn't something we couldnt just cake walk through as a pug, but the experience was much more enjoyable than LFR. Knowing we could boot someone screwing off and not have to worry about replacing them I think kept things moving. Going from 23 > 21 players was something done in stride instead of the headache of having to worry about finding replacements.

    I think trying to do FLEX with 10 people isn't the best way to experience it, especially as a pug. Having more players let the raid have some give and take, though everyone still needed to perform mechanics. It also took the pressure off of having to replace people else you find yourself at a disadvantage. I'm sure there will be a sweet spot of tanks > healers > dps that pugs can be fairly successful with, but messing up mechanics caused wipes, unlike LFR.

    I am very happy with the results and look forward to next week, though I certainly expect it to be more challenging.

    TL;DR

    I had fun, more people the better, ignoring mechanics = wipes, decent mechanics + moderate dps = loots

  4. #244
    I did flex as a crossrealm pickup with a core raid group. It was the first low-pressure, semi-progression raid on new content I've done over Vent since Wrath. The conversations were hilarious, the fights were fun, and the experience was a blast. I'm sorry, I'm not interested in wiping on bosses dozens of times anymore, I've already gone through that phase and still shake my head in disbelief that they took the kind of raiding provided by Wrath 10-mans away in Cata.

    There were some players off the bat who were probably expecting an LFR experience and momentarily held up the raid with needless wipes. The good news is, kicking someone out of a Flex raid only takes one vote: the raid leader. Laying down the law cleaned things up fast. (The freedom to kick players without having to replace them to proceed is immensely gratifying for some reason.) Player expectations probably need time to adjust.

    Anyway, I can't imagine I'll be doing SoO with a trade chat realm-only pug anytime soon. I've been in trade chat pugs that have wiped endlessly on Oondasta, often without a kill, while every OpenRaid group I've been in for that fight has been a oneshot and a clean kill.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    It's far too early to make an assessment like this about the mode. It can, and will be, nerfed on its own just via folks gearing up in SoO LFR. Revisit it a month from now, after people have a bit more experience w/ the fights, and see if you still feel that it's too difficult.
    Our group was heroic raiders + normal raiders + bad normal raiders and we still wiped couple of times

    Although dps was non issue for us (we had half of dps died in norushen and still had like 2 minutes to enrage and stuff) we fucked up mechanics (not by a lot) and it was still a wipe.

    As we were all previous raiders and had a competent raid leader we didn't have problem in second attempts, but how about the LFR people? They are just going to make same mistake over and over and die. Mechanics like soaking balls in norushen or dodging add voidzones or prison in sha is exactly the same as the normal, so if you fuck up you die. If the mechanics are same as normal what's the point of flex?

    And note that this is only the first wing - which is easiest.
    Last edited by PrairieChicken; 2013-09-17 at 01:36 AM.

  6. #246
    I think the point of Flex is to teach people that mechanics are important. LFR teaches damage good. Flex lets you not worry about hps/dps as much and just execute mechanics, normal puts them both together and heroic has you turn up the dial and squeeze the most out you can.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrairieChicken View Post
    but how about the LFR people? They are just going to make same mistake over and over and die.
    Why do you think that? Why do you think that people in LFR who are running from wind bomb to wind bomb are windowlicking idiots? In general, they're not. In general, they're just jerks who know better. In general the people who are standing in stuff in LFR or are doing things to make the encounter needlessly difficult are people who know what to do, but are just trolling the group because they are pissed off at the world and want to share some of their despair with everyone else.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Why do you think that? Why do you think that people in LFR who are running from wind bomb to wind bomb are windowlicking idiots? In general, they're not. In general, they're just jerks who know better. In general the people who are standing in stuff in LFR or are doing things to make the encounter needlessly difficult are people who know what to do, but are just trolling the group because they are pissed off at the world and want to share some of their despair with everyone else.
    I don't doubt that LFR people can figure it out. I think the issue is there isn't a lot of room for error in the mechanics, at least at the moment. I'm sure it'll change a little as people start doing flex with LFR SOO gear instead of 502 or lower gear. But screwing up in Flex leads to wipes, and even gear won't overcome that. The best thing about FLEX is that 1 guy has the power to boot the trolls. With a decent leader and some effort, I think the general LFR player can overcome it just fine.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by greeeed View Post
    in LFR I don't need to move from four kings army,bow...etc in my under-gear mage since it won't kill me...
    but it was another story why I try it in normal...
    I call bullshit. In LFR you don't need to move from four kings army because they don't one-shot you. There's still a healer out there who has to waste their mana healing through your sloppiness. If the entire raid does as you do it's a wipe. Just because a handful of players can fail on mechanics in LFR doesn't mean mechanics can be completely ignored, just like one person AFKing through LFR doesn't prove everyone can just AFK through LFR. Also Spirit Kings were tuned for a 472 ilevel. If you have 500+ ilevel you're not undergeared for LFR; you're overgeared for it.

    Also, LFR wasn't for pugging; it was for random groups. There's a big difference. Pugs are much more organized. When selecting players for a pug or when deciding to join a pug you can look at things like achievements and gear levels before the fights even start. If someone in the pug isn't pulling their weight you can /kick them without needing to vote, and you can replace them with whoever you want. People seem to be confused about the difference between pug and random. They are not the same thing. Flex was designed for pugs (and friends and family guilds), and LFR was designed for randoms.

    Quote Originally Posted by greeeed View Post
    while in flex even if you are 518 DK dps "full gems and enchantments" it's still easy to get one shot if you are just dps like mindless zombi like I did in LFR...
    (In LFR you don't even need to know anything about most bosses as dps )
    So what? The same holds true in normal mode raids and I've successfully pugged those many times. Just because you have to pay attention to mechanics doesn't mean the content wasn't designed to pug.

    Quote Originally Posted by greeeed View Post
    basically Flex is easier than normal(people need to used their brain) but a lot harder than LFR (mindless zombi)

    Flex = normal pug with less armor ilvl requirement (since boss have less damage and health)
    I'm not disputing that, but that doesn't mean that Flex isn't designed for pugs. Pug is not the same as faceroll.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrairieChicken View Post
    If the mechanics are same as normal what's the point of flex?
    Because no one PuGs normal modes anymore beyond grabbing one or two heals and a tank every once and a while.

    Obviously, of the people who can't commit to a raiding guild (the large, large majority of the WoW player base) and are therefore unable to do Normal Modes, some don't want to have nothing but dull-as-dirt LFR to do for gear and progression or hope that some guild will randomly have a DPS spot open.
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  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarac View Post
    It's not other people job to teach or help new players, the majority of players (or humans in almost every situation in life) don't give a shit about anyone but themselves or people close to them. While I agree that inviting bad players is there own fault to some degree, kicking people is just as much part of being a good raidleader.

    A raidleader is there to guide you in big lines of what is going to happen soon, not to hold peoples hand and guide them every step of the way.

    But I agree with you, for different reasons.
    You're in a 10-25 player co-operarative raid. You're helping eachother by the very definition of the game. If you're not, you're the guy being carried, just stick to Brawlers Guild.

  12. #252
    High Overlord Dragger's Avatar
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    Do flex with people you know and maybe guildies. Have a jolly good time. Problem solved.

  13. #253
    Give it a few weeks. Once people get an idea of the bosses in an environment where you can't fail (LFR), as well as a bit more gear, random Flex groups will become more bearable.

    Right now you have undergeared people, with no idea how to play, no idea what the bosses do and no idea how to act in a group where they can be kicked by one person. It's going about as well as I can expect. Right now it's more for guilds to do when they would have done a quick gearing LFR night, or for guilds that can't handle the same bosses in normal mode.

  14. #254
    Mechagnome Zatetic's Avatar
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    This whole thread is just a bunch of elitist comments.

    I've grouped with quality players for both flex and lfr. I dont even know how you can complain about people that you select. Dont select them if they are less skilled than youd like.

    Not like flex actually requires skill or anything.

  15. #255
    Pit Lord Cyrops's Avatar
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    That awkward moment when you do previous expansion raids and realise your guild is worse than pugs...

  16. #256
    I had a flex pug on my 515 tank alt yesterday. We had 20 people, 2 tanks, 5 healers and failed hard on the first boss. They kept wanting to do this strategy one of them had come up with (who was 1/14 normal) because he was the expert where they sat in only half the room and ignored P2 adds on the second half, whcih anyone who knows the fight knows will nuke the raid for about 700k when all the adds hit close together. So each transition phase 10-15 died. I tried reasoning but he kept shouting at us that he'd killed the boss and he knew the tactics (I didn't bring up I was wearing Liberator of Orgrimar title) and just left after a few more wipes to the same thing.

    I decided to start my own one instead with a 515 ilvl req (though may have been too low with the island items) and keep the numbers low at 10 as this seemed to downscale the mechanics to much more managable numbers when your healers are shaky. We stomped the first boss pretty easily though healing was a bit dodgy towards the end, great. The second boss though... I don't know if it's an inherent problem with pugs or just this group but they couldn't follow the simple instruction of DPSing the marked adds. Had a shadow priest doing great DPS but he just hit Rook or the caster the entire fight refusing to switch to anything. We had about 5 wipes to adds being up too long (and people not throwing the mark to the tank) and then I called it because it was too painful.

    I think pugs can work fine on it if you know your class and listen/follow the raid leaders instruction, but if you're just going to treat it like LFR, ignore the mechanics and do whatever you want you're going to most likely fail unless the rest of the group are carrying you. I dread to think how they'd have handled Norushen orbs or moving on Sha. In future weeks I'm just going to make sure I catch the guild run.

  17. #257
    Epic! Bosbeer's Avatar
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    Adding extra raid modes with diffrent difficulties in order to make raiding more plausible for everyone is the worst mistake ever for PvE.
    Blizzard continues to feed the below-average players by making every raid mode easier. Lower ilvl loot isn't encouraging anyone to strafe higher to normal for better loot, because the ilvl is too similar. People can roughly do the same dps as ppl with HC/normal gear. Why invest more time in higher difficulty raiding if you can be nearly as good as those raiders by completing a mindless lootfest version of it?
    Flex mode could've been one of the best things yet if it would be as difficult as normal.

  18. #258
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    Farming on the isle yesterday when someone in chat linked A Vision in Time Quest and asked where they had to go for it (Quest text says use The Vision in Time inside the Siege of Orgrimmar). When someone said "Inside the siege of Orgrimmar he said thankyou, he got a lot of grief from other players and ended up swearing at them, so if he was trolling he didn't do very well.

    Anyway, point is that I don't know how people get this far in the game when they don't even read what the game tells them so I have no doubt that Flex raiding is just as bad as LFR..
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  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by GuniorBinda View Post
    Adding extra raid modes with diffrent difficulties in order to make raiding more plausible for everyone is the worst mistake ever for PvE.
    Blizzard continues to feed the below-average players by making every raid mode easier. Lower ilvl loot isn't encouraging anyone to strafe higher to normal for better loot, because the ilvl is too similar. People can roughly do the same dps as ppl with HC/normal gear. Why invest more time in higher difficulty raiding if you can be nearly as good as those raiders by completing a mindless lootfest version of it?
    Flex mode could've been one of the best things yet if it would be as difficult as normal.
    Its no more than reverting to the model of Wrath, which was incidentally the most successful expansion the game has had.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by stumpy View Post
    No. Kids used to brag about having a big brother who'd beaten the game while actually never having seen anything past the Turbo Tunnel.
    No, kids beat those games back in the day because they were all they had, and thus kids bruteforced them until they could finish them blindfolded.

    Raiding once followed a similar pattern, but today it's truly "noone gets left behind", and even the easiest of challenges are so difficult for people they either give up or complain (because they know that they'll eventually get their way if they complain enough).
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