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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    But you don't have to be a pro gamer to not be bad at the game. That's where people get confused. You don't have to be pro to want to improve, you don't have to be pro to realize you make mistakes. The majority of players are actually below average, and refuse to get better because everyone who tries to help them is an 'elitist asshole'.
    I'm going to disagree with you slightly here;
    1: Its not that they refuse to get better, its that they don't know that they are not doing it right. They don't look up how to play their class because as far as they can tell they are doing it right. Most people you meet will ask you a question rather than using the phone in their pocket to google it themselves, they don't ask you because it is easier (they probably asked 4 people before you.) but because their brains don't pull up the fact they have the worlds repository for information right in their pockets.

    2: Most people think that saying, "LOL L2P! REROLL!! LOL U SUK!" to someone who is underperforming is 'helping' them, or kicking them from a group for low numbers is 'helping them'. They may not be elitist assholes but they certainly are assholes. Very few players are the type that actually try to help another player. Another trick is approaching a player who could use improvement and not upsetting them, its natural human instinct to reject the ideal you are doing something wrong. You can't tell them "You know your dps is bad, use this talent and this ability' without them rejecting you. I tend to say, "Lets try something out, if you don't like it you can set it back easily, try this talent and see if you notice a big difference." then I suggest noxxic.com to them, as its a more basic 'wow for dummies' website. Most underperforming players have had such badly delivered 'criticisms' that they just chock it all up to assholes, thats not the underperforming players fault, thats the assholes.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    well it's question of communication and posture.

    players who vent their frustration by saying "kick the baddies" or "Learn to play or GTFO Noob" "/facepalm" without offering advice induce the 'bad' players to drag their feet rather than to seek advice. It merely exacerbates sociopathic behavior on both sides rather than encouraging eusocial behavior.

    not to say that there aren't plenty of people off all abilty levels who will always be sociopaths no matter how nice you are
    Pretty much. There are the impatient, elitists who upset the casual players, which makes them resistant to seeking help, which in turn makes them less willing to accept help from those willing to give it, and in turn makes people less willing to try and give help.

    It's a vicious cycle.

  3. #323
    Scarab Lord Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    i just don't want any ingame metric to end up like GearScore, that was really toxic to the community and goodriddance.
    a combination of links to achievements, proving grounds ratings, and ilvl should be sufficient.
    having a single metric will lead to some players gaming and abusing that metric, and other players using that metric to discriminate irrationally against perfectly viable prospective teammates.
    My main has done Sha of Pride LFR, has Proving Grounds Silver because I have no idea how to deal with monkeys as Arcane, and item level 510. I'm going to be expecting to be discriminated against because of my Proving Grounds rating anyway. Metrics made up from other metrics have fewer upsides and more downsides in a community looking for reasons not to take certain players.

    It's a start anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    The majority of players are actually below average
    I think there's enough players in WoW to assume a bell curve distribution of skill, and hence it's impossible for the majority of players to be "below average".
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
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  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by HeedmySpeed View Post
    Can't they run the current tier in LFR? Why wouldn't that be easier to implement?
    There is no 10-man LFR, and LFR doesn't scale to accommodate anywhere between 10 and 25 players. In order to account for those people they would to modify LFR to be ... Flex. I don't why you're so outraged about Flex. Guilds that desired normal mode still have normal mode. Guilds that want heroic still have heroic. All the other guilds have Flex, and casual solo players have LFR. Hardcore solo players can still pug Normal and Heroic, but now they have Flex as an additional option. Honestly anyone with the slightest interest in raiding wins here.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    I think there's enough players in WoW to assume a bell curve distribution of skill, and hence it's impossible for the majority of players to be "below average".
    For that to be the case, 'Average' would be right around the middle of flex and normal. Pre-flex, it would be around half-way finished with ToT pre-5.4. 23068 guilds to this day, 2058 (give or take a couple dozen) of which were 25 man guilds according to WoWprogress. Which means 21010 guilds were 10 man.

    210100 players downed up to Ji-kun on 10 man.
    51450 on 25 man.
    261550 players downed Ji-kun on Normal mode.

    Even assuming a 75% PvP, 25% PvE split of players, 261.5k players doesn't come anywhere near half of the PvE population. (7 million / 4 = approximately 1.75 million)

    I would include LFR, but no one tracks LFR kills to my knowledge. (Plus, everyone and their mother can do LFR.)
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2013-09-18 at 05:21 PM.

  6. #326
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque View Post
    Now that I actually did LFR, I can say, no, please, give me more flex, never again this disaster.
    LFR is always a mess the first few weeks. At least you didn't say you were forced to run it. So there's that.

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  7. #327
    Depends, if you do flex with a ton of pugs from the same server, it could end up as bad as lfr is currently (4 wipes on Sha, come on...). Or, if you do flex with a bunch of competent guildies, shit dies fast.

  8. #328
    Scarab Lord Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    For that to be the case, 'Average' would be right around the middle of flex and normal. Pre-flex, it would be around half-way finished with ToT pre-5.4. 23068 guilds to this day, 2058 (give or take a couple dozen) of which were 25 man guilds according to WoWprogress. Which means 21010 guilds were 10 man.

    210100 players downed up to Ji-kun on 10 man.
    51450 on 25 man.
    261550 players downed Ji-kun on Normal mode.

    Even assuming a 75% PvP, 25% PvE split of players, 261.5k players doesn't come anywhere near half of the PvE population. (7 million / 4 = approximately 1.75 million)
    Hence, Normal was too difficult last tier.
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
    W/L/Death count: Wolf: 0/1/1 | Mafia: 0/5/5 | TPR: 0/2/2
    SK: 0/1/1 | VT: 1.5/3.5/5 | Cult: 1/0/1
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  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Hence, Normal was too difficult last tier.
    No, normal was NORMAL. Normal was too easy in Firelands, WAY too easy in DS, it was rather easy in MSV, and it was finally Normal again in ToT. It was never meant to be simple and easy, it was supposed to be one step down from Heroic. Which, in ToT, it was for the first time since T11.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Norushen:
    avoid purple beam of death that moves slowly enough for you to die of old age before it kills you itself
    You would not believe the amount of trouble my LFR group had with this aspect of the fight.
    OT: I'm looking forward to trying Flex. I didn't try it last week because I wanted to try LFR and get a (very) basic feel for the raid first. I do find it kind of funny how people are complaining about pugging Flex on the first week. Do you guys remember how long it took before people could PuG TOC or ICC? Give it a couple weeks. Let people learn the fight and get better gear. And if it's still a problem after that, get rid of the people that are holding you back.

  11. #331
    Scarab Lord Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    No, normal was NORMAL.
    You've clearly shown that Normal isn't normal in the post I quoted!
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
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    SK: 0/1/1 | VT: 1.5/3.5/5 | Cult: 1/0/1
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  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    You've clearly shown that Normal isn't normal in the post I quoted!
    No, I showed that less than half of the PvE population could handle what normal is supposed to be. Hence proving my point; The majority of the WoW PvE population is not of average skill level. They are below average.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    You've clearly shown that Normal isn't normal in the post I quoted!
    It's certainly badly named. "Hi, 90% of the players, you are subnormal!" Great message for a game design to be sending to the customers, don't you think?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  14. #334
    Scarab Lord Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    No, I showed that less than half of the PvE population could handle what normal is supposed to be. Hence proving my point; The majority of the WoW PvE population is not of average skill level. They are below average.
    The argument is bi-directional. If there's less than half the amount of people completing something that's supposed to be for the average player, then either the player base is skewed such that there are far more players below average, or the definition of the average is incorrect.

    I have already said that it's highly unlikely that the distribution of millions of players' skill to be below average, which leaves only one conclusion, and that's the one including Osmeric's: Normal is either poorly balanced or poorly named.
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
    W/L/Death count: Wolf: 0/1/1 | Mafia: 0/5/5 | TPR: 0/2/2
    SK: 0/1/1 | VT: 1.5/3.5/5 | Cult: 1/0/1
    Legendary Overlooked

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    The argument is bi-directional. If there's less than half the amount of people completing something that's supposed to be for the average player, then either the player base is skewed such that there are far more players below average, or the definition of the average is incorrect.

    I have already said that it's highly unlikely that the distribution of millions of players' skill to be below average, which leaves only one conclusion, and that's the one including Osmeric's: Normal is either poorly balanced or poorly named.
    It was poorly named from 4.2 onwards, when standing in bad was apparently acceptable. The saving grace of Firelands was Rag; He was a normal tuned boss in what was otherwise an Easy mode raid. Dragon Soul had NO normal tuned boss on normal mode. To the point where I didn't bother playing MoP when it first came out. But I came back due to a lack of games to play, and easily got myself into pug raids of all T14 normal content with only a 10% nerf.

    5.2 was bringing Normal tuning back to Normal level.

  16. #336
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    I think there's enough players in WoW to assume a bell curve distribution of skill, and hence it's impossible for the majority of players to be "below average".
    it is still possible for the median not to be equal to the mean.
    from a strictly theoretical standpoint.

    - - - Updated - - -

    case in point USA mean per capita income is higher than USA median per capita income on a data set of some 150 million income earners.

    which is the same as saying that a majority of americans earn less than average.

  17. #337
    I dont really play pve but i can understand the hussle

  18. #338
    I just joined some random group from tradechat for a flex raid because I had nothing else to do. I was so bored that I thought I would look the guy up on the armory (the raidleader and tank who invited me) and this is what happened:

    (Nothing happened before that. I only said those two sentences...)

    This is why there are requirements. This is why you should inspect people. And this is why Blizzard should not nerf content because of data that shows how often people fail because you end up playing with idiots like this. Or do we all have to play some piss easy game because some angry teenager doesn't even want to try?

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    It was poorly named from 4.2 onwards, when standing in bad was apparently acceptable.
    You're seriously claiming you parked in Shannox's traps and still downed him. The players you sent to engage Beth up top let themselves get pelted by meteors and you still killed her. You stood in Rhyolith's lava flows and killed him nonetheless. You had random people soaking Baleroc's crystals with no issues. You parked by the worms while fighting Alysrazror and yet she still died. You killed Staghelm without ever bothering to stack or spread. I call bullshit. Don't make up stupid crap like this because it completely undermines your other arguments' credibility as well. You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

  20. #340
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    I just joined some random group from tradechat for a flex raid because I had nothing else to do. I was so bored that I thought I would look the guy up on the armory (the raidleader and tank who invited me) and this is what happened:

    (Nothing happened before that. I only said those two sentences...)

    This is why there are requirements. This is why you should inspect people. And this is why Blizzard should not nerf content because of data that shows how often people fail because you end up playing with idiots like this. Or do we all have to play some piss easy game because some angry teenager doesn't even want to try?
    case in point you did not even attempt at stylizing your feedback in a constructive manner.

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