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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post


    I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. I'll try to be more considerate from now on.
    You think that guy wouldn't react like that if I googled enchants for him?

  2. #362
    Scarab Lord Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    This is why there are requirements. This is why you should inspect people. And this is why Blizzard should not nerf content because of data that shows how often people fail because you end up playing with idiots like this.
    I could be inclined to raid with that person if:
    *Enchants are expensive due to a low faction population and hence ridiculously expensive Enchants on the AH
    *He'd got those three items recently (according to his item tracker on his Armory)
    *Belt Buckles are expensive like above
    *Two of those three missing tinkers are on his new items (that is, Gloves, Waist or Back).

    Nothing can fix the attitude of either of you though.
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  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    I just joined some random group from tradechat for a flex raid because I had nothing else to do. I was so bored that I thought I would look the guy up on the armory (the raidleader and tank who invited me) and this is what happened:

    (Nothing happened before that. I only said those two sentences...)

    This is why there are requirements. This is why you should inspect people. And this is why Blizzard should not nerf content because of data that shows how often people fail because you end up playing with idiots like this. Or do we all have to play some piss easy game because some angry teenager doesn't even want to try?
    I know people are giving you grief but I'd go so far as to look up their armory history. If they have a item and it's been more than a week without an enchant they are not getting an invite. Flex is not LFR. If people can't spend 20 minutes putting gems/enchants on gear they should be raiding.

    Why is it up to everyone else to teach people that gems/enchants are standard practice for raiding? If they've raided at all in the last 6 years they know what is expected. If you step up to normal mode you should also be expected to be optimally reforged.

    Granted those 7 enchants and 7 missing sockets won't have a huge effect on DPS, we shouldn't be required to put up with lazy people.

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    actually you can offer advice if you start with a conversation that is not directed toward advising and then eventually circling around to giving the advice in a low pressure manner.
    Yeah, that's fine. By that time you are no longer a complete "stranger."

    You need to say "hello, how do you do, what's the weather like out your way" et cetera before you start in with "So in regard to your lack of gems that's bringing us all down...."

    Basically, people interpret unsolicited advice/criticism from a stranger as an assault, and react in one of three ways:

    (1) Ignore it/take it in silence and hope it goes away (the "mature" response),
    (2) Feel shitty about being berated by a stranger (more of a female response),
    (3) Respond aggressively (typical 18-30 yo male response).

    They never, ever (4) Have an epiphany and feel instant gratitude toward the advice-giver.

    It doesn't matter whether your advice is 100% correct. Not a bit.

  5. #365
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Yeah, that's fine. By that time you are no longer a complete "stranger."

    You need to say "hello, how do you do, what's the weather like out your way" et cetera before you start in with "So in regard to your lack of gems that's bringing us all down...."

    Basically, people interpret unsolicited advice/criticism from a stranger as an assault, and react in one of three ways:

    (1) Ignore it/take it in silence and hope it goes away (the "mature" response),
    (2) Feel shitty about being berated by a stranger (more of a female response),
    (3) Respond aggressively (typical 18-30 yo male response).

    They never, ever (4) Have an epiphany and feel instant gratitude toward the advice-giver.

    It doesn't matter whether your advice is 100% correct. Not a bit.
    From my experience (not in recieving, but in seeing just how advice is given out by people), the general way "advice" is given is sort of... wrong.
    It usually goes like this:

    "WHY DON'T YOU HAVE GEMS?" Like... asking a question you know the answer to, in a sort of put-down-y way. 8 times out of 10, it's that. If not that, then outright insults. Very rarely is anyone actually civilized.

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    I know people are giving you grief but I'd go so far as to look up their armory history. If they have a item and it's been more than a week without an enchant they are not getting an invite. Flex is not LFR. If people can't spend 20 minutes putting gems/enchants on gear they should be raiding.

    Why is it up to everyone else to teach people that gems/enchants are standard practice for raiding? If they've raided at all in the last 6 years they know what is expected. If you step up to normal mode you should also be expected to be optimally reforged.

    Granted those 7 enchants and 7 missing sockets won't have a huge effect on DPS, we shouldn't be required to put up with lazy people.
    Telling the raid leader he is missing a bunch of enchants and gems is a dick move.

    If you don't want to raid with someone who is missing most of his enchants and gems, that's fine, but just bow out of it. There's no need to, basically, start a fight over something that doesn't matter to either of you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    From my experience (not in recieving, but in seeing just how advice is given out by people), the general way "advice" is given is sort of... wrong.
    It usually goes like this:

    "WHY DON'T YOU HAVE GEMS?" Like... asking a question you know the answer to, in a sort of put-down-y way. 8 times out of 10, it's that. If not that, then outright insults. Very rarely is anyone actually civilized.
    Yes, but the more important point that I am trying to make is that it doesn't matter whether you are rude or polite when offering advice to strangers. People seem to think that when they have progressed beyond "Hey noob no enchants lame" to "/w Noob Do you know you are supposed to enchant your gear before raiding?" that the latter is somehow more proper and likely to be/should be well received.

    It's not, though. Not a bit.

  7. #367
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    I have already said that it's highly unlikely that the distribution of millions of players' skill to be below average, which leaves only one conclusion, and that's the one including Osmeric's: Normal is either poorly balanced or poorly named.
    There's another alternative and none of them are mutally exclusive: Raiding generally isn't for the average player. I'm not going to get into the argument about whether or not LFR is or isn't raiding. LFR is really more like a big old Normal 25-man dungeon with long fights than anything else. And I'm OK with that.

    I don't know how many players are either in or looking for guilds that wish to raid. I'm not even sure we can agree on what an 'average' player really is much like we can't agree and never will on a definition for 'casual'.

    Changing subjects slightly: One interesting thing that I'm seeing in some of the comments about people not moving out of things in Flex: Players that are starting to raid in Flex that haven't done a lot of it or only seen raids in LFR need to learn that at first it's OK to stop casting for a couple of GCD's to move. If they don't know, someone should say so. There's a certain amount of worship for DPS to always be casting which at some level is true enough but better to move and let your DPS suffer for a few GCD's than to die. Because of the worship for meters that doesn't always get across. Once they get used to not tunneling and start moving then they can figure out how to use their instants while moving or whatever they have available. It's an important point that people don't learn well. Always be casting leads to tunneling if you're not careful. Staying alive is more important than perfectly executing a priority system. The truly excellent player can do both but that's a really distinct minority compared to all.
    A bit of civility and respect for others opinions goes a long way toward getting any respect in return. Overly hostile, profane and insulting posts are a sign that people don't really have anything to say. Profanity is best served out in very small doses.

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  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    You think that guy wouldn't react like that if I googled enchants for him?
    Maybe he would have and maybe he wouldn't have. I promise not to rage at you if you google enchants for me, though. In all honesty, however, I think I'd be better served with a link to Ask Mr. Robot. If you have better suggestions please wow me (no pun intended).

  9. #369
    The Flexible Size is really amazing, people can join, leave, or DC for a while on the flight and the Raid doesnt have to be interrupted to LFM for half an hour. Difficulty is a problem though: When the servers open you get the Nerds who plow through the content and at the day before Reset there are mostly Noobs who maybe get one or two bosses down but not more.

    I personally wished it would be a bit easier at the later bosses and the loot should have lower ilvl so that it isn't relevant for HEroic Raiders, though.
    Capitalism, Ho!

  10. #370
    Good thing on medium pop server is, you can just look at wowprogress at the guilds and then roughly now what awaits you. That said, I haven't puged anything in t16 yet :P

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    Granted those 7 enchants and 7 missing sockets won't have a huge effect on DPS, we shouldn't be required to put up with lazy people.
    When you're playing a MMO you are required to put up with all subscribers regardless of work ethic. You don't have to have them in your guild or even run content with them, but you don't have to act like a complete jerk to them either. This is just as true when using a public pool, visiting a public library, or attending a movie in a crowded theatre in real life. It's a big world and we have to share it with all types.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    You're seriously claiming you parked in Shannox's traps and still downed him. The players you sent to engage Beth up top let themselves get pelted by meteors and you still killed her. You stood in Rhyolith's lava flows and killed him nonetheless. You had random people soaking Baleroc's crystals with no issues. You parked by the worms while fighting Alysrazror and yet she still died. You killed Staghelm without ever bothering to stack or spread. I call bullshit. Don't make up stupid crap like this because it completely undermines your other arguments' credibility as well. You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?
    Yes, actually. We got hit with Rhyolith's lines at least 7 times a fight. We had our tanks and DPS take the lava spin from the worms pretty damn often. Our people up top on Beth got hit by meteors, fell, and went right back up at least twice per fight. We actually did kill Staghelm on our first kill without once spreading out. And so long as it wasn't an ice trap more than twice a fight, we DID have people stand in or hit Shannox traps. And we STILL downed them each time.

    I'd make a comment about Baleroc, but lolspriest made it too easy.

    Try again, sir.

  13. #373
    I love flex, doing it with socials and alts. Socials are mainly people who quit raiding because of real life stuff. Which means I can still play with them :-)

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    1. if the roster is not online, it is the RL's responsibility to incentivize all raid-team members to attend scheduled raid times if running normal or heroic raids is the agreed goal of the group. It is the guild's responsibility to incentivize the RL to incentivize the roster.
    It really isn't. It's of everyone's interest to show up otherwise things won't get done.
    It is however up to recruitment (RL or Officers) to get players who are reliable to suit the schedule.

    2. the goal of any guild is the perogative of the members of that guild. if running with friends with more important than accomplishing normal mode, they use flex. if accomplishing normal mode is more important than runnign with friends, they sit people. all choices entail opportunity costs.
    This is why it sounds like I'm dismissing arguments. Because there's a leap of logic after that inserted comma.
    If playing with friends is more important than accomplishing something then all that means is you aren't going to substitute them.
    Believe it or not, guilds have done this in the past but still played in Normal.
    3. Argument ad absurdem/strawmanning is an invalid rhtorical strategy.
    You're right but who decides what is "absurd?"
    When LFR was released you might say that the idea of a 4th difficulty was a "strawman."

    Come@me.

  15. #375
    To me wiping in flex is not a big deal. It's the same as wiping with my guild on hc. People suck, just on different levels.

  16. #376
    Field Marshal Chaoss17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmowin View Post
    You find out that LFR is actually x10 better than queing Flex with players from your own server.
    Haha.
    People who wants vanilla back should read your comments it was so true back then and it was for normal dunjeon.

    Hahaha.

  17. #377
    I'm confused, are people really having this bad an experience in Flex? We're making a point as a guild (we're a large social guild) to do open Flex raiding on Friday nights, we took 25 people last week all ranging in gear from 49x to 540 with the average being about 520 and we wiped one time to Sha of Pride, for most people it was their first time seeing these bosses.

    I know Pugs are always a wild card but frankly it was almost as easy as LFR, with the difference being pretty much that you can't actually stand in the fire on Flex, the damage and healing requirements were roughly the same, maybe about 20% higher.
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  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaalyn View Post
    These are not encouraging words. Am planning on running a flex with my friends from an old guild. They said we could pug what we were missing.
    Something tells me Monday night is going to be a long one.
    Don't worry. Flex is very easy and if your leader is smart enough to kick the stupid people, it will be a fun experience.
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  19. #379
    Field Marshal Chaoss17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Druidjezus View Post
    I'm confused, are people really having this bad an experience in Flex? We're making a point as a guild (we're a large social guild) to do open Flex raiding on Friday nights, we took 25 people last week all ranging in gear from 49x to 540 with the average being about 520 and we wiped one time to Sha of Pride, for most people it was their first time seeing these bosses.

    I know Pugs are always a wild card but frankly it was almost as easy as LFR, with the difference being pretty much that you can't actually stand in the fire on Flex, the damage and healing requirements were roughly the same, maybe about 20% higher.
    You're missing the point that a lot of Flex are not organized by guilds.
    Meaning that is like LFR, a random player of your server is making his own raid with other random players he doesn't know to their own standard.

    That's why for example the person above checked the armory to see if the Raid lead (the one who made the raid) was decently geared, gemed and enchanted.
    And since it wasn't the case, that person left the raid.

    Flex is so popular with PUG that they want to remove LFR.
    Kinda ironic don't you think when they're just oraganizing a LFR but on their own server.

    Flex was created for small guilds or middle type guild (or group of friends) who dodn't have enough people to make raids (that was said many time by a blue)
    Not for making a personal LFR, imo.

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Telling the raid leader he is missing a bunch of enchants and gems is a dick move.

    If you don't want to raid with someone who is missing most of his enchants and gems, that's fine, but just bow out of it. There's no need to, basically, start a fight over something that doesn't matter to either of you.

    - - - Updated - - -
    He didn't start a fight. He said "You didn't enchant any of your gear, good luck" and left. He made an observation and the other guy called him names over leaving a flex raid. It says 7 enchants, 5 gems, belt buckle and two engineering sprockets. That's 15 enhancements missing.

    Do you really want to defend the extreme laziness of a raid leader organizing a raid for the last tier of the expansion? By all means please explain why that's acceptable.

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