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  1. #161
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    the real problem with LFR is that it's 25-man, if it were 10-man it would feel a little less anonymous
    .


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  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroEdgeir View Post
    Guys, you do recall that Blizzard outright said that Flex Raid was not designed with the INTENT of PuGs, but for those organized groups struggling in Normal to be able to have something harder and more organized than LFR, but not as big a jump from LFR to Normal.

    PUGs will fail hard mostly, for the next while, until they get caught up in LFR gear and MAYBE learn some mechanics.

    I wouldn't PUG a Flex run. I'd fill it with friends and guildies. Cause that was more the intent.
    Exactly.

    And this is the reason people are demanding higher ilvl to do pugs. If you are at the minimum gear for Flex ( about 500), than that means you will have to be highly coordinated and work as a team, and have everyone accountable for failing mechanisms. That does NOT happen in a pug, so you need to require a higher ilvl to offset the lack of coordination.

    I had a full pug last night. I required ilvl 520 or TOT heroic boss kills. Without any real coordination, just people knowing mechanisms.. we 1-shotted every boss and I had 4 minutes left on my first flask. With the same lack of coordination and ilvl 500, we would have wiped on probably the last 3 bosses multiple times.

    you have two choices.. you do it at low gear levels in a guild group.... or you do it in a pug with ilvl 520... they reason they are failing hard now is because most of those pugs have a ton of 496 people in them. You are not going to kill the last 3 bosses with that ilvl unless you have great coordination.

  3. #163
    10 man raiding guild....took 24 casuals/raiders/never been to a raid folk ever (3 never even raided lfr) into flex (all guild).....cleared in about 1 hour 45 mins....Use what flex was intended for and no issue...we had 4 people pushing 50-75k dps....Flex requires someone leading who knows what to do...that is all.

  4. #164
    Flex currently suffers from a) people running it that aren't yet adapted to the increased difficulty over LFR, b) people never having seen these fights, and c) gear. Wait till SoO LFR is out about a month or 2, and you'll see flex being steamrolled on a regular basis in pugs.

    You saw the same overall issue in Cata heroics. Folks got pummeled until they L2P and gear up a bit, which took about a month. Then it was basically a non issue. This too, is a whole lot of worry over nothing.
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  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    I can do it with friends at least, but struggled with even the first boss with a complete pug. Have yet to see a pug successfully get past the second boss, kinda depressing - Honestly, if LFR never existed I daresay players would be a bit more skilled, they've just gotten lazy over time.
    I have to take issue with this statement. The LFR is a wonderful tool to learn the basics of the fight. Yes, it takes out most if not all the mechanics, but if you are prepping for normal mode (at least in my case) its better than watching a youtube video of some else’s strat. Yes, there are all different types of people that play this game some better than others, some actually take the time to help others make it through the LFR, if for nothing else then to at least make it through the content with some of your sanity intact. Just making a blanket statement as you chose to make, really does the whole LFR concept an injustice. Not everyone that goes in there is mentally challenged or a first time raider.

    Some like me, which do not have the time or the patience anymore for progression raiding (I got tired of the blaming, yelling, screwing around, whining about I should have gotten that piece gear crap) every Tuesday and Thursday night. The best raiding guild I was a part of was way back Wrath, it was a solid group until the guild leader and raid leader stop playing because actual life took more of a priority. It has been a very unrewarding experience to say the least for me since cata. I like to see the content; gear is second to me, though I do like having it for transmog purposes. The LFR also gives me a chance to know the fights to some degree, in case a friend asks me to fill in on a raid. This way they have to explain very little, if at all about the fight to me.

    A lot of people slam on the LFR, some with good reason. I hate when people feel the need to be a jerk and pull endless amounts of trash, just because someone hurt their feelings. I am sure flex raiding is also a wonderful experience as well, as long as someone prepares themselves before going in the group. Not everyone a medium to hardcore raider. At best most play a couple days a week. I guess I have more patience then most, because you have to have patience when you are raiding or even pvping. My suggestion is take heed when making blanket statements as you chose to make here. Have a nice day 
    Last edited by Tarawa; 2013-09-16 at 03:41 PM. Reason: formatting

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Flex currently suffers from a) people running it that aren't yet adapted to the increased difficulty over LFR, b) people never having seen these fights, and c) gear. Wait till SoO LFR is out about a month or 2, and you'll see flex being steamrolled on a regular basis in pugs.

    You saw the same overall issue in Cata heroics. Folks got pummeled until they L2P and gear up a bit, which took about a month. Then it was basically a non issue. This too, is a whole lot of worry over nothing.
    While I agree, it's worth noting that part of the reason Cata Heroics became easier was firstly - they were nerfed, a lot; and secondly people just stopped using the LFD tool to get through them (or stopped playing altogether). Those groups you found were generally just looking for the last couple of people.

    I think Flex will get better to pug in a couple of weeks as people get used to it, get used to the fights etc. For now though, you should make sure the group has a decent group at its core - but then I think that's generally been a given for any pug since the game was launched.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Flex currently suffers from a) people running it that aren't yet adapted to the increased difficulty over LFR, b) people never having seen these fights, and c) gear. Wait till SoO LFR is out about a month or 2, and you'll see flex being steamrolled on a regular basis in pugs.

    You saw the same overall issue in Cata heroics. Folks got pummeled until they L2P and gear up a bit, which took about a month. Then it was basically a non issue. This too, is a whole lot of worry over nothing.
    It depends on what mechanisms were removed from LFR. The problem with LFR is that usually only the tanks need to know any mechanisms. Doesn´t matter how many times a DPS runs LFR if they can ignore the most important mechanisms the entire time... they aren´t going to get better for Flex.

    I cannot wait for tomorrow just to see how many people get mind-controlled by the Sha before 30%. If it is anything like Flex, my guess is most dps will be mindcontrolled. I also can envision very long Protectors fights.

  8. #168
    Good thing i dont have to deal with tards since i am doing flex with my guild, i find it quite enjoyable, so far i like it, way better than lfr, Flex>LFR anytime

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Words fail me, that after ppl have been shitting all over LFR, now flex is the target?
    Wasn't it obvious that this would happen? It's about the least surprising thing I can imagine. The more popular and the bigger Flex becomes, the more it will get dumped on. Yes, that's a very cynical view but the threads that have gone up over the weekend aren't surprising at all.

    Over time this thing with pugs will work itself out. Eventually people will perhaps learn that just as Blizzard said, the largest portion of people running LFR didn't make a practice out of raiding during Cataclysm (or ever) and expecting them to be somehow ready for flex or normal raiding en masse is neither practical nor smart.

    Meanwhile, a lot of people will adapt, some will get better and advance, others won't and the people that come to forums to primarily complain and puff up their egos will continue to do so. It's the way of things. Flex, even though not specifically designed to do anything for pugs, will light them up again and as time goes on a lot of those pugs will migrate toward normal mode. Meanwhile casual guilds that want to do some raiding can get started in Flex and as long as they can bring ~10+ people.

    Flex is always going to be abused by self-deceived elites though.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-09-16 at 05:51 PM.
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  10. #170
    It will get better as people learn the strats, gear up and get to know which people you want in flex and which you don't, you know... online server community for once.

  11. #171
    lfr is horrible but how are you going to bash flex lmfao you can pick and choose who you take. if you dont like them or they are complete shit dont take them lol this is either on horrible stupid op or a very good troll idk which.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Eventually people will perhaps learn that just as Blizzard said, the largest portion of people running LFR didn't make a practice out of raiding during Cataclysm (or ever) and expecting them to be somehow ready for flex or normal raiding en masse is neither practical nor smart.
    I hope Blizzard is ready for a lot of those people to stop running LFR, and many unsubbing, long before the expansion ends. If they aren't cut out for Flex, why do they need to gear up in LFR?
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  13. #173
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I hope Blizzard is ready for a lot of those people to stop running LFR, and many unsubbing, long before the expansion ends. If they aren't cut out for Flex, why do they need to gear up in LFR?
    I will confess I don't play for gear any longer. I play for fun. My decidedly minority opinion on this is that people will hang around if there is something fun for them to do. Fun is not necessarily exclusive to LFR/Flex/Raiding and the current tier. In my own case, flex will be fun and will sustain a lot of months if I have people to run it with. Timeless Isle on the other hand is not fun at all for me personally although I was looking forward to it. It's fine if you're in a group but minus that and it's a bit dry. So it goes.

    If they truly have old raids/dungeons scaled for end-game players nearly ready to go and can manage to drop that in a mythical 5.5 patch, that might extend the time that people stick with the expansion I think. Entirely speculative though and unlikely at this point.

    Personally, I'm likely to spend the rest of the expansion doing some recruiting for our guild, leveling something new and doing some RP (toons on Thorium Brotherhood and Cenarion Circle) which will fill the time nicely.

    Blizzard is in a trap of their own making on gear. It will be up to them to figure a way out of it. Playing for gear is ultimately a dumb idea for anyone since it simply gets replaced on a constant basis. After a while that gets old for anyone. I think there are other ways to advance characters other than constant gear replacement but the game may be too far along for that now. Playing purely for gear though is a very hollow game.
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  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    I can do it with friends at least, but struggled with even the first boss with a complete pug. Have yet to see a pug successfully get past the second boss, kinda depressing - Honestly, if LFR never existed I daresay players would be a bit more skilled, they've just gotten lazy over time.
    I feel the same way as you. While I do understand how big LFR is, I also think it has ruined the community, both in attitude and performance.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Solidsteel View Post
    They're both unbearable, filled with less than intelligent, insufferable people. Only difference is you can try to filter some of that out with flex while in LFR there is nothing you can do.
    I notice this seems to only be a problem for some. Ever think to consider the commonality for problems in LFR/flex is in fact you and not other people? I haven't done flex yet but most of my LFR runs go quite smoothly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaalyn View Post
    These are not encouraging words. Am planning on running a flex with my friends from an old guild. They said we could pug what we were missing.
    Something tells me Monday night is going to be a long one.
    Perhaps that will be because the content is new? Unless you have done it on PTR it will be new for you as well so I highly doubt your performance is going to be flawless either.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
    To you and me, it's not rocket science. To the average raider it is.
    Could you possibly be any more arrogant?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by But I Hate You All View Post
    Every Flex run I seen wants you to have IL 520 min + exp with fights
    That is how many pugs are. It isn't unique to flex mode. I have seen people start pugs for LFR with similar requirements. Not sure why this is so terribly surprising to people.

  16. #176
    You are allowed to research the people you pug with.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisisvacant View Post
    I disagree. Horrible players lead to a decline in subs. It's not even a question.
    Only because of people like you who chase them out of the game. Good job.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargas View Post
    Making the 1-60 dungeons a bit harder (having actual boss mechanics rather than be tank and spank) and re-instating class quests that work along the lines of FF14's class quests that teach you the correct way to play your class. Players shouldn't be expected to have to read an outside guide on how to play their class; Blizzard should have done that through the leveling experience.
    Harder dungeons never taught anyone to do anything and class quests had absolutely nothing to do with skill much less learning your class. Proving Grounds does a far better job of this than any dungeon or quest ever could.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by But I Hate You All View Post
    Sadly everyone on my server wants a 520+ to do flex
    Well good thing flex is cross realm. Oh wait I forgot that is bad too because god forbid players build a cross realm community even if it solves issues like this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nivis View Post
    Oh, just wait a few weeks.
    Then it will be more like: "LFM Flex SoO - need 530+ and clear achievement!"
    And there will still be pugs that have sensible requirements as well but we never hear about those even if they are in far greater number.

  18. #178
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solidsteel View Post
    They're both unbearable, filled with less than intelligent, insufferable people. Only difference is you can try to filter some of that out with flex while in LFR there is nothing you can do.
    I don't even understand how people can say this.

    You build a flex team, just like a regular team. If one builds it full of horrible, terrible players then that's sorta one's own fault and not the raid mode itself. I could probably build a normal mode raid team that's worse than LFR if I tried, but that doesn't make normal worse than LFR, that makes me a shitty raid leader.

    Flex is as bad or as great as you make it.
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  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    “Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” ― George Carlin

    The same applies to average players too I guess. How do you propose to keep average-to-bad players out of the game?

    Flex--as Blizzard has said numerous times--is for casual guilds. I'm glad that Flex is generating a pug scene on realms and I suppose after a couple of weeks that will sort itself out on its own. But that's not what it was created to do.
    Incorrect. I just double checked the initial blog entry that explained flex raiding and they did intend on flex mode being pugged so no it isn't just for guilds. If that were the case they wouldn't be cross realm.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaalyn View Post
    These are not encouraging words. Am planning on running a flex with my friends from an old guild. They said we could pug what we were missing.
    Something tells me Monday night is going to be a long one.
    Couple things.
    A) Nobody knows any strats yet. LFR is going to be a wild ride until groups do get strats down pat, and the 'Go with the flow' people will have no flow to go with for the first month or so.

    B) Gear is low overall. Ideally, flex is aimed at people between 510-530, most of the 'target audience' is going to be 502-510.

    C) Avoid pugging. This isn't an LFR Zergfest. If DPS is bad, you will hit enrage timers on the third boss.

    I've managed to clear the first three bosses with a couple attempts on the fourth boss with a casual 12 man guild group, and the first two bosses in a total pug with a raid leader who meticulously spelled out everything that needed to happen for a kill.

    There needs to be some sort of encouragement (not a buff, or extra items) to bring extra people and by that I would suggest not scaling linearly for each player, but rather logarithmically so in essence it is actually mechanically and damagingly easier with 25, but the added coordination with 25 will make up for that difficulty.
    Yes. I kind of agree with this sentiment. more people makes spreading out harder, we don't need to lob on another 2mil health per-extra-body. (Especially on fights with short enrage timers, like norushen's 7mins.)

    It's actually really good for raiding guilds, as difficulty wise, it's very close to Normal. Loot is personal; so it's a good way to grab a couple people looking to join your guild, put them through the paces, and see who knows the strats, who says they know the strats but dosen't really know the strats, and who knows the strats and can do decent DPS/HPS while executing the strat. Like LFR, it's still a little bit rough around the edges, but it's teeming with potential.

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