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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    You keep mentioned how the orcs are at fault in the sense that orcish pride is the blame for all this, infact blizzard themselves seems content with shoving that down everyones throats. Yet why must orcs be the only race who should feel no pride in there race or its heroes of past, well every other race gets to erect statues or monuments or named villages after there heroes?

    Captain chin has a statue of himself outside his own castle, try and tell me self pride doesn't seep from his dam pours.

    Making out that orcish pride caused all this, well all the other races wield pride in the same way, is just drawing a line for the sake of it, to single out one race for the sake of others.
    It's not just pride, it's pride in bloodshed. Nobody's saying that the orcs can't have pride in their heroes, nobody's even saying that they even have to change. Posters are just pointing out that if the orcs DON'T change and start teaching the bad along with the good, younger generations will probably keep repeating the same mistakes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rumaya2000 View Post
    And I've yet to see it demonstrated somewhere that this is more than Tyrande's opinion, or an attempt to gloss over the facts. Azshara is clearly not in her gift to give.
    Sounded to me like she was saying 'I'll let you use what you already have'. Even Varian included it along with Thunder Bluff and the Echo Isles as a core Horde territory.

    As for Ashenvale, when were the negotiations over it held? In the five minutes since Vol'Jin became Warchief?

    I'm open to the idea that the Horde has been driven out of Ashenvale at some point off screen but I've not seen it or read that this happened. Even Wolfheart only implied the Horde's attempts to capture the entire zone failed and they were forced back to their prior lines. Given that Wolfheart seemed to take place directly after the Cataclysm occurred as during Cataclysm (the expansion) the Worgen and Jarod Shadowsong were in place, I see the Ashenvale zone as post Wolfheart rather than pre Wolfheart.

    Meaning the Horde had not been driven out of the forest at that point, or that the actions of Horde players in the zone take place prior to Woflheart. They take place after. This actually makes more sense as Zoram'gar outpost was destroyed by the Alliance during the course of Wolfheart, yet was rebuilt in the new orc style during Cataclysm implying the outpost was recaptured.

    Is there any hard evidence of the Horde being driven out of Ashenvale completely or is Tyrande just blowing hot air?
    I interpreted it as 'we won't try to take back Azshara if they leave Ashenvale alone' not 'we're giving them Azshara out of the kindness of our hearts.'
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    It's not just pride, it's pride in bloodshed. Nobody's saying that the orcs can't have pride in their heroes, nobody's even saying that they even have to change. Posters are just pointing out that if the orcs DON'T change and start teaching the bad along with the good, younger generations will probably keep repeating the same mistakes.
    This really is it. This is the chief problem with the orcs. They didn't learn their lesson from the Old Horde and instead of looking at the long-term they looked to satiate their immediate cravings and short-term desires. It didn't help that Thrall really only half-assed his attempts at saying "THIS WAS BAD!" and at the same time over-glorified heroes from the first and second wars, leaving out the bad that they did and covering that up with "They ultimately did good so it's okay!"

    The orcish race did not learn anything from history and thus were doomed to repeat it. This is probably one of the most cliched plot devices ever and I'm pretty sure that I wasn't the only one thinking this when war began to break loose.

  3. #63
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    It's not just pride, it's pride in bloodshed. Nobody's saying that the orcs can't have pride in their heroes, nobody's even saying that they even have to change. Posters are just pointing out that if the orcs DON'T change and start teaching the bad along with the good, younger generations will probably keep repeating the same mistakes.
    Bingo the Orcs can be proud of many things, but they choose to focus on the wrong things.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  4. #64
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    It's not just pride, it's pride in bloodshed. Nobody's saying that the orcs can't have pride in their heroes, nobody's even saying that they even have to change. Posters are just pointing out that if the orcs DON'T change and start teaching the bad along with the good, younger generations will probably keep repeating the same mistakes.
    And.. I'm all for that. I would be all for it if they started to develop orcs as being more aware of it. Bad shit has happened in the orcs past and mistakes have happened because many of them don't know where the line is drawn. However, if you read into orcs as a people, read the books the comics, the quest text, you discover they are not wanting to live in the past, and even when trying to make a life for there own, they can't because of the alliance.

    lets be honest here. Has any human in warcraft ever regretted putting orcs in interment camps and selling them as slaves?

    the orcs as they came to kalimdor wanted to be free of the humans and alliance in general, but they alliance wouldn't let them go, wouldn't allow them to exist. Even when trying to, they weren't allowed to make a life for there own. So when Garrosh came along and saw this, and said to the orcs 'you see what these C**ts are doing, I've had enough of there crap lets kill them!", of course they wanted to follow this.

    These arguments are the most bias of all, because there is ALWAYS a line drawn, where its acceptable to do what they did on the other side, well the other side needs to be held fully accountable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Bingo the Orcs can be proud of many things, but they choose to focus on the wrong things.
    they choose to be proud of the idea of there past heroes killing there oppressors.

    Now, I won't go full one sided on this, and say something like they should be proud of what there ancestors did to the draenei, because that was nothing to be proud of. But then saying how they should have suffered because of that, even when the alliance defeated them, twice, is drawing that proverbial line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mister Madgod View Post
    This really is it. This is the chief problem with the orcs. They didn't learn their lesson from the Old Horde and instead of looking at the long-term they looked to satiate their immediate cravings and short-term desires. It didn't help that Thrall really only half-assed his attempts at saying "THIS WAS BAD!" and at the same time over-glorified heroes from the first and second wars, leaving out the bad that they did and covering that up with "They ultimately did good so it's okay!"

    The orcish race did not learn anything from history and thus were doomed to repeat it. This is probably one of the most cliched plot devices ever and I'm pretty sure that I wasn't the only one thinking this when war began to break loose.
    you are SERIOUSLY overgeneralizing all orcs into one camp.

    If people here actually think all orcs should be held accountable for the actions of those wanting to kill all others, then your wanting to make many innocent orcs, who didn't want to follow in Garrosh's mad scheme, out to be as accountable for it as the rest.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    And.. I'm all for that. I would be all for it if they started to develop orcs as being more aware of it. Bad shit has happened in the orcs past and mistakes have happened because many of them don't know where the line is drawn. However, if you read into orcs as a people, read the books the comics, the quest text, you discover they are not wanting to live in the past, and even when trying to make a life for there own, they can't because of the alliance.

    lets be honest here. Has any human in warcraft ever regretted putting orcs in interment camps and selling them as slaves?

    the orcs as they came to kalimdor wanted to be free of the humans and alliance in general, but they alliance wouldn't let them go, wouldn't allow them to exist. Even when trying to, they weren't allowed to make a life for there own. So when Garrosh came along and saw this, and said to the orcs 'you see what these C**ts are doing, I've had enough of there crap lets kill them!", of course they wanted to follow this.

    These arguments are the most bias of all, because there is ALWAYS a line drawn, where its acceptable to do what they did on the other side, well the other side needs to be held fully accountable.

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    they choose to be proud of the idea of there past heroes killing there oppressors.

    Now, I won't go full one sided on this, and say something like they should be proud of what there ancestors did to the draenei, because that was nothing to be proud of. But then saying how they should have suffered because of that, even when the alliance defeated them, twice, is drawing that proverbial line.
    Jaina for one, before the orcs blew up her city. And can you blame the humans for the camps considering the whole attempted genocide thing? Sure some bad examples of humanity like Blackmoore made things worse, but when you consider what the orcs did when they came to Azeroth, the camps were much better than what would have happened to humanity if they'd lost.

    Yeah, the orcs struggled for freedom. But then in WC, a peace, albeit uneasy, was formed. There was the Admiral Proudmoore incident but it was swiftly resolved. Some border skirmishes, but no real attempt from the Alliance as a whole to subjugate them. The orcs lived in a barren desert because Thrall chose to deliberately put them there, not because the Alliance decided they should live there. Their resource problem is on Thrall's shoulders not the Alliance's.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    the orcs as they came to kalimdor wanted to be free of the humans and alliance in general, but they alliance wouldn't let them go, wouldn't allow them to exist. Even when trying to, they weren't allowed to make a life for there own. So when Garrosh came along and saw this, and said to the orcs 'you see what these C**ts are doing, I've had enough of there crap lets kill them!", of course they wanted to follow this.

    These arguments are the most bias of all, because there is ALWAYS a line drawn, where its acceptable to do what they did on the other side, well the other side needs to be held fully accountable.
    Other than the night elves not liking the orcs taking lumber and the remnants of that Kul'tiras fleet, the Alliance has really not done that much, certainly not enough to legitimize war. I'd barely even count Kul'tiras, really, considering that it was not a part of the Grand Alliance, rather, it was just a bunch of humans from the old Alliance of Lordaeron.

    It's excessive to declare war over a timber dispute and a bunch of angry, shipwrecked sailors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    There was the Admiral Proudmoore incident but it was swiftly resolved.
    One which was resolved by help from the Alliance, even.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    you are SERIOUSLY overgeneralizing all orcs into one camp.

    If people here actually think all orcs should be held accountable for the actions of those wanting to kill all others, then your wanting to make many innocent orcs, who didn't want to follow in Garrosh's mad scheme, out to be as accountable for it as the rest.
    I know the orcish race just as well as you do, if not more so.

    It doesn't really matter whether there are differing camps. They're all orcs and the majority of that race decided they liked Garrosh's ideals. If the United States declared war on the EU and lost, do you think they would say "Well those Americans who were against the war don't have to deal with the economic sanctions?" Probably not. They would put it on the country. Same sort of deal here.

    The races of Warcraft make up their own sovereign nations. Those nations then join together to create the Alliance and Horde. If a nation fights another nation and loses, they pay that price. Not just the people who were for it, but the people who were against it. Those are the consequences of failure, the same as if they had won. The people who weren't for it would reap those benefits just as much as the people who were for it.
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2013-09-21 at 03:52 PM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mister Madgod View Post
    Other than the night elves not liking the orcs taking lumber and the remnants of that Kul'tiras fleet, the Alliance has really not done that much, certainly not enough to legitimize war. I'd barely even count Kul'tiras, really, considering that it was not a part of the Grand Alliance, rather, it was just a bunch of humans from the old Alliance of Lordaeron.

    It's excessive to declare war over a timber dispute and a bunch of angry, shipwrecked sailors.



    I know the orcish race just as well as you do, if not more so.

    It doesn't really matter whether there are differing camps. They're all orcs and the majority of that race decided they liked Garrosh's ideals. If the United States declared war on the EU and lost, do you think they would say "Well those Americans who were against the war don't have to deal with the economic sanctions?" Probably not. They would put it on the country. Same sort of deal here.
    There's no distinction between the 'grand' alliance and alliance of lordaeron. They just changed the name when lordaeron fell, it's not like the old alliance disbanded and an entirely new one formed. That said, Daelin WAS acting on his own, and his attack was short lived due to Jaina having her forces stand down.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    I interpreted it as 'we won't try to take back Azshara if they leave Ashenvale alone' not 'we're giving them Azshara out of the kindness of our hearts.'
    But then that's worse because she is acting as if it has already been decided and Vol'Jin's most likely answer to that request is going to be 'No'. He knows the Horde did bad things but he isn't going to undermine his own newfound authority by capitulating to Alliance demands.

    Besides to even get to Azshara the Night Elves will have to go through some pretty hefty Horde defenses (I presume they bypassed these defenses and reached Orgrimmar via the barrens during the Siege, Garrosh's defenses there having been demonstratably pounded).

    Is Tyrande setting herself up for disappointment?

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    There's no distinction between the 'grand' alliance and alliance of lordaeron. They just changed the name when lordaeron fell, it's not like the old alliance disbanded and an entirely new one formed. That said, Daelin WAS acting on his own, and his attack was short lived due to Jaina having her forces stand down.
    Neh, I'd say it's a different group politically, considering the primary members of the Alliance of Lordaeron are either dead or undead. The only remaining people from the Alliance of Lordaeron within the new Alliance would be the former residents of Theramore, the Gilneans, the dwarves, and the remnants of Stormwind. We also see a change on the center of power. The high elves (as a kingdom) are no longer there, and we see the draenei and night elves join. All around it's a more diverse political theater.

    The Alliance of Lordaeron's primary difference really is it's location of power. It died off with Garithos, who was part of what's called the Alliance remnants.

    The Old Alliance was amended to be the new one so technically it's the same organization but I'd say that it's a similar thing to the Old Horde versus the New Horde. Technically they're the same but they are politically different and were relevant at different times.
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2013-09-21 at 04:05 PM.

  10. #70
    Whatever does actually happen regarding Alliance politics post-Siege, I only hope that:

    1)Any major shake-ups in terms of land claim are actually reflected in-game, rather than just being mentioned in some novel.

    2)We finally move away from the Varian and Jaina Show (With Special Guest Anduin Wrynn). If Varian becomes the face of the reclamation efforts in Gilneas and Lordaeron, rather than Genn and the worgen, and Jaina is the driving source of conflict in Kalimdor, rather than Tyrande and the Night Elves, I'm gonna be peeved. :|
    The most dangerous man in the world is neither good nor evil, for no one truly knows what that madman will do.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mister Madgod View Post
    Neh, I'd say it's a different group politically, considering the primary members of the Alliance of Lordaeron are either dead or undead. The only remaining people from the Alliance of Lordaeron within the new Alliance would be the former residents of Theramore, the Gilneans, the dwarves, and the remnants of Stormwind. We also see a change on the center of power. The high elves (as a kingdom) are no longer there, and we see the draenei and night elves join. All around it's a more diverse political theater.

    The Alliance of Lordaeron's primary difference really is it's location of power. It died off with Garithos, who was part of what's called the Alliance remnants.

    The Old Alliance was amended to be the new one so technically it's the same organization but I'd say that it's a similar thing to the Old Horde versus the New Horde. Technically they're the same but they are politically different and were relevant at different times.
    The Alliance in Warcraft 3:

    Stormwind (didn't take part in the war but still a part lore wise)
    Dalaran
    Kul'tiras
    Lordaeron
    Khaz Modan
    Gnomeregan (same as Stormwind)

    The Alliance in Vanilla WoW:

    Stormwind
    Dalaran
    Kul'Tiras (Not in game but still in lore)
    Khaz Modan
    Gnomeregan
    Theramore, largely survivors of Lordaeron
    Night Elves.

    Seems to me more like the same group evolving rather than a whole new entity. Especially since in Vanilla there wasn't really even a singular source of power or leadership in the Alliance. Stormwind is the 'heart' of the Alliance now but in Vanilla it didn't really have one. It wasn't until Varian was introduced in Wrath that we started to have a central leader, and even then he wasn't quite at high king levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rumaya2000 View Post
    But then that's worse because she is acting as if it has already been decided and Vol'Jin's most likely answer to that request is going to be 'No'. He knows the Horde did bad things but he isn't going to undermine his own newfound authority by capitulating to Alliance demands.

    Besides to even get to Azshara the Night Elves will have to go through some pretty hefty Horde defenses (I presume they bypassed these defenses and reached Orgrimmar via the barrens during the Siege, Garrosh's defenses there having been demonstratably pounded).

    Is Tyrande setting herself up for disappointment?
    Who are you to say Vol'jin's going to decline and continue the warmongering he's always been shown to despise when he has a chance at peace and can use the resources of Azshara for the horde?
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    eems to me more like the same group evolving rather than a whole new entity. Especially since in Vanilla there wasn't really even a singular source of power or leadership in the Alliance. Stormwind is the 'heart' of the Alliance now but in Vanilla it didn't really have one. It wasn't until Varian was introduced in Wrath that we started to have a central leader, and even then he wasn't quite at high king levels.
    However the core of that group is largely gone. Politically speaking that means a lot.

    Even without a singular source of power that center of power has moved. It can't be in Lordaeron, that's Horde territory. The dynamics of power changed. The dynamics of geographical location changed. There's a lot of difference between the two.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mister Madgod View Post
    However the core of that group is largely gone. Politically speaking that means a lot.

    Even without a singular source of power that center of power has moved. It can't be in Lordaeron, that's Horde territory. The dynamics of power changed. The dynamics of geographical location changed. There's a lot of difference between the two.
    There are differences to be sure, but I still consider it to be the same Alliance, especially in the absence of any lore indicating a new group or formation. I just see it as there being a power vacuum after Lordaeron's fall and Stormwind gradually rising to fill that void.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Who are you to say Vol'jin's going to decline and continue the warmongering he's always been shown to despise when he has a chance at peace and can use the resources of Azshara for the horde?
    A member of the Horde. Besides he was fine with the Horde pushing into Ashenvale when Thrall was Warchief so obviously he thinks there is some value for a Horde presence there.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by rumaya2000 View Post
    A member of the Horde. Besides he was fine with the Horde pushing into Ashenvale when Thrall was Warchief so obviously he thinks there is some value for a Horde presence there.
    So far as I know we have no comment from Vol'jin, that was back before he was an actual character who did things besides sit next to Thrall. And even then that seemed to be the Warsong acting on their own, not Thrall sending them in.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    So far as I know we have no comment from Vol'jin, that was back before he was an actual character who did things besides sit next to Thrall. And even then that seemed to be the Warsong acting on their own, not Thrall sending them in.
    Plus since the Warsong Clan likely formed the bulk of the Kor'kron (though I don't think it was ever explicitly stated, those Kor'kron banners everywhere bear the insignia of the Warsong clan), their power within the Horde has pretty much been shattered. At this point they are probably reduced to various non-combatants (ie the very young and very old) and a handful of dissenters who sided with the rebels. They certainly aren't going to be able to act autonomously from now on.

    And really willfully violating any peace treaty unprovoked before the ink has dried isn't in Vol'jin's character. Even if he'd like to establish a presence in Ashenvale (and there isn't anything saying he does), he also doesn't want to start another war with the Alliance while the Horde is still picking up the pieces from their civil war. Chances are we'll have at least an expansion or two with things returned to a cold war status.
    Roleplaying, hardcore Raiding, running LFR on the occasional weekend, PvPing, rolling alts, achievement hunting, pet battling, or just enacting an endless series of whims, I don't care how you play WoW. Just as long as you have fun doing it.

  17. #77
    If this was real they would split into 2 continents with nutral trade towns in bb etc.

    You dont see russia contolled state in NA and they arent even at war.

    And sylvanas.. all other races are alive, even if you are a barbarian horde race you cant agree with sylvanas. Shed be dead / contained long ago

  18. #78
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    You keep mentioned how the orcs are at fault in the sense that orcish pride is the blame for all this, infact blizzard themselves seems content with shoving that down everyones throats. Yet why must orcs be the only race who should feel no pride in there race or its heroes of past, well every other race gets to erect statues or monuments or named villages after there heroes?
    That's a simple one. You don't see any living Night Elves venerating Azshara or Xavius. You don't see humans venerating Kel'thuzad or Arthas. You don't see Blood Elves venerating Kael'thas since BC proved he was a traitor to his people and a psychopath. Orcs on the other hand, most of their "heroes" are insane murdering psychopaths like Azshara, Arthas, Kael'thas. The good ones, Drekthar, Durotan, Thrall etc. are there to venerate and honour but there isn't enough there. How is Grom a hero? He's the belligerent, easily duped loser who damned his people twice and got a whole lot of them killed, along with murdering a whole lot more people in his bloodlust. Because after the second time he fucked up, out of desperation knowing full well what was going to happen he killed Mannoroth in a rage somehow he's absolved?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rumaya2000 View Post
    Is there any hard evidence of the Horde being driven out of Ashenvale completely or is Tyrande just blowing hot air?
    the entire premise of Tides of War and Garrosh's motivation in attacking Theramore was because the Night Elves have driven them out of Ashenvale. Tyrande isn't blowing hot air, Azshara is night elf land and Ashenvale is secured (the army attacking Orgrimmar was put together and moved through Ashenvale). It's not shown in game because devs are too lazy to do this citing a lack of gameplay value. imo making it clear to uninformed posters such as yourself is worth the entire effort to revamp/phase the zone showing the victory.
    If it's not an elf, leave it on the shelf.
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  19. #79
    Fluffy Kitten Lokann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    There are differences to be sure, but I still consider it to be the same Alliance, especially in the absence of any lore indicating a new group or formation. I just see it as there being a power vacuum after Lordaeron's fall and Stormwind gradually rising to fill that void.
    Agreed, personally I believe it's the same organisation on the paper. You must consider the split pre-WC3 as well, where they lost Quel'thalas and Gilneas while Stromgarde just went "Meh" in a big way and didn't really bother with the Alliance anymore (though nominally they were still members). After that, relations were a tad strained, and the kingdoms themselves became much more autonomous again.

    Generally, I look at the Alliance as a continuous political group, sort of like how a band that lost most its members but recruited new ones is still technically the same band. The core of the Alliance has shifted from Lordaeron and the remnants of Stormwind to Ironforge and Stormwind though (more recently, Ironforge just sort of... disappeared from this core, but that's another story).

    (As for your sig, was it perhaps this pic?)



  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Blade View Post
    That's a simple one. You don't see any living Night Elves venerating Azshara or Xavius. You don't see humans venerating Kel'thuzad or Arthas. You don't see Blood Elves venerating Kael'thas since BC proved he was a traitor to his people and a psychopath. Orcs on the other hand, most of their "heroes" are insane murdering psychopaths like Azshara, Arthas, Kael'thas. The good ones, Drekthar, Durotan, Thrall etc. are there to venerate and honour but there isn't enough there. How is Grom a hero? He's the belligerent, easily duped loser who damned his people twice and got a whole lot of them killed, along with murdering a whole lot more people in his bloodlust. Because after the second time he fucked up, out of desperation knowing full well what was going to happen he killed Mannoroth in a rage somehow he's absolved?
    I'm not underplaying the actions of the orcs in the past, but your argument is hardly fair. Azshara, Xavius, Kael'thas, Arthas and Kel'thuzad are all traitors of their own races. Right there is the big difference between then and characters like Orgrim and Grom. Those are venerated because they are indeed orcish heroes that acted for the best of the orcish race.

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