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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Lokann View Post
    Agreed, personally I believe it's the same organisation on the paper. You must consider the split pre-WC3 as well, where they lost Quel'thalas and Gilneas while Stromgarde just went "Meh" in a big way and didn't really bother with the Alliance anymore (though nominally they were still members). After that, relations were a tad strained, and the kingdoms themselves became much more autonomous again.

    Generally, I look at the Alliance as a continuous political group, sort of like how a band that lost most its members but recruited new ones is still technically the same band. The core of the Alliance has shifted from Lordaeron and the remnants of Stormwind to Ironforge and Stormwind though (more recently, Ironforge just sort of... disappeared from this core, but that's another story).

    (As for your sig, was it perhaps this pic?)
    No, but that's a cool pic though.
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanfear1 View Post
    If this was real they would split into 2 continents with nutral trade towns in bb etc.

    You dont see russia contolled state in NA and they arent even at war.

    And sylvanas.. all other races are alive, even if you are a barbarian horde race you cant agree with sylvanas. Shed be dead / contained long ago
    No that's not true.

    Sylvanas would not leave Lordaeron with her people and there's no chance in hell the elves would abandon Ashenvale, Darkshore and Teldrassil

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Lokann View Post
    Agreed, personally I believe it's the same organisation on the paper. You must consider the split pre-WC3 as well, where they lost Quel'thalas and Gilneas while Stromgarde just went "Meh" in a big way and didn't really bother with the Alliance anymore (though nominally they were still members). After that, relations were a tad strained, and the kingdoms themselves became much more autonomous again.
    Perhaps I just look too much at Warcraft III's lore. The Alliance remnant with Garithos, the deaths of the majority of its people due to the Scourge. As far as it portrays the Alliance really isn't that much of a thing at that point. It's still there but the Alliance of Lordaeron would be no more after that point, and it would become something else.

  4. #84
    Fluffy Kitten Lokann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mister Madgod View Post
    Perhaps I just look too much at Warcraft III's lore. The Alliance remnant with Garithos, the deaths of the majority of its people due to the Scourge. As far as it portrays the Alliance really isn't that much of a thing at that point. It's still there but the Alliance of Lordaeron would be no more after that point, and it would become something else.
    However, remember that Garithos had support from dwarves with siege tanks. That probably rules out the Wildhammer, so there's a chance they were Ironforge soldiers.



  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by DesoPL View Post
    There is also other interesing option.

    It's possible, that Sylvanas can leave the horde, and make attempt to create her own Scourge. Seems legit.
    Yea, let's shatter the horde even more, that should put an end to outcries of horde favoritism

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Lokann View Post
    However, remember that Garithos had support from dwarves with siege tanks. That probably rules out the Wildhammer, so there's a chance they were Ironforge soldiers.
    And a lot of them died off too when Sylvanas betrayed them after they fought to destroy Balnazzar.
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2013-09-22 at 02:45 PM.

  7. #87
    Fluffy Kitten Lokann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mister Madgod View Post
    And a lot of them died off too when Sylvanas betrayed them after they fought to destroy Balnazzar.
    What I meant was that Ironforge likely still considered itself a member of the same Alliance as Garithos. I'm assuming it's still technically the same organisation, but the seat of power shifted to the only intact human kindgom after the fall of Lordaeron.

    It's not really the same situation as with the Horde, where the organisation itself ceased to exist between the Second War and the end of the internment period.



  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Lokann View Post
    What I meant was that Ironforge likely still considered itself a member of the same Alliance as Garithos. I'm assuming it's still technically the same organisation, but the seat of power shifted to the only intact human kindgom after the fall of Lordaeron.

    It's not really the same situation as with the Horde, where the organisation itself ceased to exist between the Second War and the end of the internment period.
    No but I feel that shift of power was so dramatic and those events were so catastrophic that denoting that it isn't really the same thing is valid. The Alliance of Lordaeron broke the moment Sylvanas seized control of Lordaeron City. The Alliance in general survived, but that part of its identity was gone.

  9. #89
    Fluffy Kitten Lokann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mister Madgod View Post
    No but I feel that shift of power was so dramatic and those events were so catastrophic that denoting that it isn't really the same thing is valid. The Alliance of Lordaeron broke the moment Sylvanas seized control of Lordaeron City. The Alliance in general survived, but that part of its identity was gone.
    Agreed on the loss of identity part, which however is not strictly connected to the organisation's political status.

    For the sake of argument, let's say the Grand Alliance evolved from the Alliance of Lordaeron, and if considered as a process as well as an organisation, it led a continuous existence. Sounds reasonable?



  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Lokann View Post
    Agreed on the loss of identity part, which however is not strictly connected to the organisation's political status.
    Well politically, the Alliance of Lordaeron was primarily made up by the citizens of Lordaeron. They're gone. Only a few remained with Jaina and her people. Power shifted away from Lordaeron, there are very few Lordaeron humans now to give their opinions on what should be done. I would say that it's changed significantly from a political standpoint and by the fact that we don't call it the Alliance of Lordaeron that really it isn't the same thing. It never disbanded, but it changed in a significant enough way that it is no longer what it was. Hence why I point at it and say it is indeed different and worth noting of that difference.

    For the sake of argument, let's say the Grand Alliance evolved from the Alliance of Lordaeron, and if considered as a process as well as an organisation, it led a continuous existence. Sounds reasonable?
    Which isn't that far off from what I'm saying... but if humans evolved from some pre-human species, we aren't that pre-human species anymore. We're something different, though we once were that thing. Or should I have said vrykul?

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Lokann View Post
    Generally, I look at the Alliance as a continuous political group, sort of like how a band that lost most its members but recruited new ones is still technically the same band. The core of the Alliance has shifted from Lordaeron and the remnants of Stormwind to Ironforge and Stormwind though (more recently, Ironforge just sort of... disappeared from this core, but that's another story).
    Like the lumberjack's favorite axe, he had changed the handle 5 times and the blade twice, but it was still his trusty old axe?

  12. #92
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    This is my speculation about what will be next, so don't take this serious.

    1: Varian send more soldiers to secure Gilneas and push back Forsaken to Tirisfal Glades. Here can be two options... Sylvanas pull back her forces from Gilneas. Or she can try create new scourge. Banshee Queen become slowly Lich Queen?

    2: Vol'Jin don't trust much Sylvanas, after her invasion to Gilneas. He ordered to secure Undercity as Thrall and Garrosh did before. Also Vol'Jin can banish Forsaken from the horde.

    3: Jaina in Garrosh trial will demand Garrosh death. In her vision, this would be a justice for destroying Theramore. Future whereabouts unknown.

    4: Night Elves will got serious threat in thier own people. Not from Highborne, but from Maiev... Maiev make a promise, to clear Night Elves from Highborne ane make Night Elves again to greatness... This can remind also Fandral attempts, to regain immortality for Night Elves?

    5: Dwaves as dwarves, always will got a political problems... I can only guess, but will likely possible that Moira will try, to make her son as a high king of Ironforge... But here will be resist from Muradin and Falstaad...
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  13. #93
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    Well, going by Tyrande's Siege gossip, it sounds like Varian is pressuring the Horde for a full withdrawal from Ashenvale in return for the night elves withdrawing from Aszhara (which is also plentiful in lumber). Tyrande's fine with it because she thinks the goblins will stripmine it and leave the Horde up the creek again, forcing them to learn how to ration their resources. Going by Varian's gossip, he'll be mobilizing to retake Gilneas. Sylvanas seems to have something up her sleeve in regards to seeing of Vol'jin is good enough for her to accept as her Warchief. Gallywix, Baine, and Lor'themar all seem groovy with Vol'jin. Anduin does, too, though he isn't the best judge of character at times. Jaina continues to insist that the Horde shouldn't be allowed to self-govern.

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  14. #94
    I'm really confused as t what Trassk wants the Horde and Orcs to be like... he is so all over the place.

    I love Varians character, I just wish Dwarves, and maybe some Gnomes get some action. I want Magni back.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    I'm really confused as t what Trassk wants the Horde and Orcs to be like... he is so all over the place.

    I love Varians character, I just wish Dwarves, and maybe some Gnomes get some action. I want Magni back.
    blizzard systematically screwed up the orcs story in warcraft, from the noble-savage orcs we had since warcraft 3, to becoming a reminiscence of orcs before that time, making there whole development shit. And having every other horde race and alliance plowing into them, killing dozens of them, and then having someone who isn't an orc taking power from them, from the horde they built, its all shit.
    But, what I would have hoped is, with the message blizzard force feed us for most of this expansion, how "horde is family", is that they would uphold this and show its not just about one person (in this case vol'jin) but about all, and at least show more orcs standing against garrosh then with him.

    This is the worst moment for the orcs since there defeat to the alliance decades ago, and the final salt in the wound comes from another race being put in power over them. If you want a story about being equal, make it equal, not one dominating the other, thats what Garrosh did and he was hated for it.
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  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    blizzard systematically screwed up the orcs story in warcraft, from the noble-savage orcs we had since warcraft 3, to becoming a reminiscence of orcs before that time, making there whole development shit. And having every other horde race and alliance plowing into them, killing dozens of them, and then having someone who isn't an orc taking power from them, from the horde they built, its all shit.
    But, what I would have hoped is, with the message blizzard force feed us for most of this expansion, how "horde is family", is that they would uphold this and show its not just about one person (in this case vol'jin) but about all, and at least show more orcs standing against garrosh then with him.

    This is the worst moment for the orcs since there defeat to the alliance decades ago, and the final salt in the wound comes from another race being put in power over them. If you want a story about being equal, make it equal, not one dominating the other, thats what Garrosh did and he was hated for it.
    Vol'jin may be the leader of the Horde now, but that doesn't mean the Orcs will be treated as second-class citizens in comparison to the Darkspear as you seem to be insinuating. In fact given how many Orcs did support the rebellion (Thrall, Saurfang, most of the civilians of Orgrimmar and Razor Hill , and some troops in the Underhold, etc), I would be astounded if that turned out to be the case. And I don't even think it should be have to be said that Vol'jin isn't going to be dominating the Horde in any manner that is remotely comparable to Garrosh's reign.
    Last edited by Falrinn; 2013-09-26 at 12:36 AM.
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  17. #97
    Fluffy Kitten Lokann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    But, what I would have hoped is, with the message blizzard force feed us for most of this expansion, how "horde is family", is that they would uphold this and show its not just about one person (in this case vol'jin) but about all, and at least show more orcs standing against garrosh then with him.
    The Rebellion has masses of orcish grunts in the Underhalls bit if I remember correctly, perhaps traitors from within led by Shokia.

    Considering named orcs though, I would have loved to see more stand against Garrosh (oh Gorgonna, why did they forget you?), which unfortunately might have ended up in a clusterfuck of characters.

    As for the future of the orcish race, I do believe most of those outside Orgrimmar would have sided with the Rebellion, at least those living in the smaller settlements. We already had some hints in 5.3 that the Crossroads was a rebel town.



  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    blizzard systematically screwed up the orcs story in warcraft, from the noble-savage orcs we had since warcraft 3, to becoming a reminiscence of orcs before that time, making there whole development shit. And having every other horde race and alliance plowing into them, killing dozens of them, and then having someone who isn't an orc taking power from them, from the horde they built, its all shit.
    But, what I would have hoped is, with the message blizzard force feed us for most of this expansion, how "horde is family", is that they would uphold this and show its not just about one person (in this case vol'jin) but about all, and at least show more orcs standing against garrosh then with him.

    This is the worst moment for the orcs since there defeat to the alliance decades ago, and the final salt in the wound comes from another race being put in power over them. If you want a story about being equal, make it equal, not one dominating the other, thats what Garrosh did and he was hated for it.
    I've never though of "Orcs" as noble savages. Maybe some of them, sure. Thrall and a few others are the only one who did anything to perpetuate that idea. Then you had Grom...

    I just feel like its better storytelling than "oh! Orcs are good guys now!" and its certainly better than having a random badguy be the last boss.

    Good stories have their ups and downs. This is a down. I can understand how you feel, but I think you are refusing to see that Blizzard will likely have the Orcs and the Horde go "up" from here.

    Who would you prefer to be warchief though? Voljin seems unsure anyway. It seemed kind of temporary to me.

  19. #99
    Fluffy Kitten Lokann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    Good stories have their ups and downs. This is a down. I can understand how you feel, but I think you are refusing to see that Blizzard will likely have the Orcs and the Horde go "up" from here.
    Indeed, the Kalimdor Horde is now pretty much in the same position the orcs were in just before Warcraft 3, only now the faction is in the hands of someone who's less likely to whitewash the bad from their history.

    It's a learning opportunity, and as such a huge boon for RP, I'd say.



  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Lokann View Post
    Indeed, the Kalimdor Horde is now pretty much in the same position the orcs were in just before Warcraft 3, only now the faction is in the hands of someone who's less likely to whitewash the bad from their history.

    It's a learning opportunity, and as such a huge boon for RP, I'd say.
    Agreed. I was pissed when the dwarves short amount of in game lore pretty much summed up to "Magni is a stone, now the counsel of the three hammers is here." .... I just hope they do something at all with them.

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